today's range testing .475 & .357

[subsonic]

Shot my 6" 686 with 160gr and 180gr WFNs and my .475 BFR today with the new boolit I sorta copied from 44man and Speer Gold Dot 400gr.

Targets below shot @ 50yds.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/targets1.jpg

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/targets2.jpg

Chrono on the .475 w/H110 and the new boolit:
24gr W/Fed 155
1337, 1325, 1332, 1293, 1269

24.5gr W/Fed 155
1356, 1327, 1338, 1402, 1428

25gr W/CCI350
1508, 1520, 1449, 1500, 1397

Pulling the 26gr/CCI350 loads!!!!:shock:

More later! Busy day!

[subsonic]

OK, details:

On the 24 and 24.5 gr .475 groups, I was having a hard time lining the dot up with those target styles. I thought they might be better, but they were actually worse. My eyes see the red dot much better on black than on white when it's turned down. I called a flyer to the right on the 24gr cast group and wrote it on the chrono sheet. I also called a flyer left on the 24.5gr Gold Dot group.

I had two rows of targets stapled up. I noticed I shot consistently better groups on the lower row of targets. This has to do with how my bags stack up on the bench and how much sand is under the grips in the little sandbag I use, as well as how often I was re-working the front bags to get them the right height. Things definitely wanted to settle in better on the lower row.

I pulled the 5, 26gr .475 loads tonight and the H110 was compressed into almost solid pellets. I had to tap the case to get the powder to pour out. Neck tension was immense on these. I had to use vice grips clamped down HARD on the boolits across the top of my press and lowered the ram to pull them. It took a LOT of pressure on the handle to pull these!

The .357 test was to see if I am shooting the LBT 160gr WFNs I cast over 13gr of AA9 with CCI500 better than I did with iron sights. The answer is not really. Group sizes are very simlar. Maybe 1/4" or so better with the red dot, but it is much easier to shoot those groups with the Ulta-Dot sight.

I think my bench setup and technique matters more than what kind of sight I'm using.

I only wrote down 4 chrono measurements for the 160s, but they were all close to these:
1301,1324,1308,1312

I had loaded some 180gr Cast Performance FNGC a while back over 13gr of AA9 with a CCI500 and never got around to testing them.

They chrono'd like this:
1175,1153,1105,1146,1144,1138,1140,1175,1121,1188
This load showed no signs of pressure and likely can be increased slightly. Accurate's load book shows a 180 XTP taking 13gr of AA9 and producing over 1400fps out of an 8" barrel.

[tek4260]

Oops, I shot my 26gr loads today in the pouring rain! No problems to report as far as primers or brass. I couldn't chrony them under the deck. They shot into a neat line about 1.5" across for 3 shots. I blame that on getting used to the trigger.

[subsonic]

The brass from my 25gr H110 loads with the my cast boolit was pretty bulged and wouldn't go back into the gun. The primers were flat all the way across the pocket and looked like .500 S&W primers. What did your brass look like?

Here is the chrono data for the 400gr Gold Dots with CCI350:

23.5gr H110
1307,1265,1273,1237,1286

24gr H110
1268,1297,1257,1291,1252

24.5gr H110
1269,1302,1246,1286,1273

25gr H110
1306,1280,1303,1330,1313

No pressure signs at all, maybe room to grow.

[44man]

Try 296 Dennis. Stay with the Fed primers. Primers are critical.
Nice group with the GD's. Be careful or you will soon be bashed like I am over small groups! [smilie=l:

[tek4260]

My brass looked fine and the primers looked normal. I'll take some pictures later on. Extraction was as usual where you don't really even feel the point where the ejector rod touches the case as it slides out. I haven't tried to rechamber the brass. I think they were more accurate than the 25gr load.

It was a full case. I had marked the side of a 30-06 case over the powder charge and it was at the top of the crimp groove. Have you trimmed your brass? That may be the reason yours was compressing or maybe the Starline has less capacity. Mine was once fired Hornady cases.

[44man]

My brass looked fine and the primers looked normal. I'll take some pictures later on. Extraction was as usual where you don't really even feel the point where the ejector rod touches the case as it slides out. I haven't tried to rechamber the brass. I think they were more accurate than the 25gr load.

It was a full case. I had marked the side of a 30-06 case over the powder charge and it was at the top of the crimp groove. Have you trimmed your brass? That may be the reason yours was compressing or maybe the Starline has less capacity. Mine was once fired Hornady cases.
Mine were Hornady cases, trimmed .005" under max. I started to see pressure at 25 gr. Many cases could not be put back in the gun.
The .475 likes hot for accuracy but not over. It is why I quit at 24.5 for Subsonic's boolit. I go to 26 gr for my boolit because the drive length is shorter. Velocities are close.
Understand that the cylinder steel will expand more in some directions because of thickness so if you turn the brass it will not fit again. That has to be too much pressure.

[subsonic]

Hornady cases here. I don't remember the trim length off hand, but it was whatever it took to true up every case in the batch of 100. I would say it was near the trim-to or slightly under.

[subsonic]

Try 296 Dennis. Stay with the Fed primers. Primers are critical.
Nice group with the GD's. Be careful or you will soon be bashed like I am over small groups! [smilie=l:

Did you find any weird pressure/velocity spikes with the CCI350s?

The three tightest groups I've shot were with CCI350s.

See the 24 and 24.5gr Gold Dot groups, the very first 5 shots using 24gr of H110 with this new boolit, and one of the early groups I shot with the Lee 400gr that was slightly over an inch at 50 used CCI350s with 26gr of H110.

Do you think the H110 likes the CCI and the 296 likes the Federals?

Go ahead, tell me H110 and 296 are exactly the same everybody.....[smilie=l:

[subsonic]

Oops, I shot my 26gr loads today in the pouring rain! No problems to report as far as primers or brass. I couldn't chrony them under the deck. They shot into a neat line about 1.5" across for 3 shots. I blame that on getting used to the trigger.

I can only imagine that the rain made the grips even more slick. Hope your hands didn't get too bitten

I fired 40rds the other day and was surprised at how much different my perception of recoil from this gun is compared to when I first shot it.

At first I thought it was a beast and my hands hurt for a couple of days! Now I'm not sure what the fuss is all about and question if I was shooting the same gun! My hands didn't know the difference and I could not tell I had fired ANY gun from the way they felt afterward, let alone a big bore revolver. The mind is a powerful thing.:holysheep

[tek4260]

I can only imagine that the rain made the grips even more slick. Hope your hands didn't get too bitten

I fired 40rds the other day and was surprised at how much different my perception of recoil from this gun is compared to when I first shot it.

At first I thought it was a beast and my hands hurt for a couple of days! Now I'm not sure what the fuss is all about and question if I was shooting the same gun! My hands didn't know the difference and I could not tell I had fired ANY gun from the way they felt afterward, let alone a big bore revolver. The mind is a powerful thing.:holysheep


Deck is covered by a 12x40 awning so no worries about the rain!

[bigboredad]

you guys are starting to make me feel like a little girl my 340gr out of my .45 is plenty for me:oops: But I still have ny tough days when i sure would like to try a .475 or .500jrh. But Whitworth and his cannons wow that boy ain't right:kidding:

[jwp475]

H-110 and 296 is the same powder made in the same plant by the same people, the only difference is the label on the bottles

[MaxEnergy]

Try 296 Dennis. Stay with the Fed primers. Primers are critical.
Nice group with the GD's. Be careful or you will soon be bashed like I am over small groups! [smilie=l:

same dang powder.

[44man]

H-110 and 296 is the same powder made in the same plant by the same people, the only difference is the label on the bottles
That is something I do not know today. But before, WW got a different batch. Both canister powders had enough difference so they did shoot apart. It was not like lot to lot.
I still only use 296. I never buy H110 because of the differences I had before.
H110 was choice in the RH, but never in the SBH or SRH.
Canister powders were designated and any batch too far either side of burn rates went to ammo makers with burn rate test equipment to adjust loads.
I feel that H110 and 296 are still enough apart to make a difference.
Hodgdon now has most powders but how do you know burn rates are made the same? If true, why are H110 and 296 still offered as separate powders?
Many, many powders start life as the same but get different numbers according to burn rates.
Chose your powder from "experts" here or go by powder company numbers, your choice.
An "expert" is one that sees a difference when shot.
Do you know the difference in one powder and another can be just the shape, length and size of the hole through the center and the components are exactly the same? Even a ball powder shape changes the burn, some flat, some round but both the same ingredients. Coatings are different to impede or enhance burn rates. Same powders, different numbers so why don't you load the same amounts? Why don't you load 60 gr of 4064 in your rifle because it takes 60 gr of 4831? Just how different are the components? Why don't you look at the shape of the same ingredients? Double base, single base, no matter, many powder numbers are made from the same. Shape and coatings are the differences. A batch that goes here or there even if the same is based on burn rate.
JWP, you can baffle some but not those that know.
We have thousands of powders with most made from the same exact stuff.

[jwp475]

Winchester always produced Hogdon ball powders and now Hogdon owns the right to Winchester powders and Hogdon markets both. It is no secret that H-110 and W 296 are the same powder. You are the only one that claims they are different to my knowledge. I am sorry but you are flat out wrong to claim that they are not the same

[subsonic]

St. Marks.

[sixshot]

I've shot a lot of H110 & never shot a single round loaded with 296, not because one was better than the other, I just didn't want another powder on the shelf. Its my understanding that the two were somewhat different originally because they were made by seperate companies. Now, from what I read they come out of the exact same spout, so the only difference would be the normal lot to lot variation. I did pick up 2 lbs of the old 296 recently at a yard sale, I don't expect much difference but could be surprised. For $5 a pound I was happy to get it.

Dick

[44man]

Winchester always produced Hogdon ball powders and now Hogdon owns the right to Winchester powders and Hogdon markets both. It is no secret that H-110 and W 296 are the same powder. You are the only one that claims they are different to my knowledge. I am sorry but you are flat out wrong to claim that they are not the same
I was not wrong with my testing some years ago. H110 shot different then 296.
At one time the appearance of H110 was not the same color.
I told you I do not know today since Hodgdon has all powders but they still market 296 and H110 as separate powders.
From experience I do not buy H110 except for certain guns.
If I am wrong, show groups shot with each from the same gun.
I would but I have no need for H110 and will not buy any. Thank you but I will stay with 296.

[jwp475]

There is no difference in the 2 powders they come from the same spout. There can be differences in lot variations of any powder and that is the only possible difference

Your obsession with pictures proves absolutely nothing. You are wrong about the powder just as you were wrong when you claimed that you could look at a primer and tell if it was a mag primer or a standard primer

[44man]

There is no difference in the 2 powders they come from the same spout. There can be differences in lot variations of any powder and that is the only possible difference

Your obsession with pictures proves absolutely nothing. You are wrong about the powder just as you were wrong when you claimed that you could look at a primer and tell if it was a mag primer or a standard primer
Am I really?

[jwp475]

Without a doubt

[subsonic]

Guys, don't get my thread locked please. The facts have been put forth. You're not going to convince each other any different, and I have proven to myself that they may shoot differently.

[jwp475]

Just got off the phone with Hogdon (913-362-9455) and they confirmed that H-110 and W-296 are indeed the same powder

Just to set the record straight. Anyone can call and verify same as I did

[44man]

Just got off the phone with Hogdon (913-362-9455) and they confirmed that H-110 and W-296 are indeed the same powder

Just to set the record straight. Anyone can call and verify same as I did
I never said different, only that different batches went to either WW or Hodgdon. You have stepped in to cause friction.
Primers! A friend brought factory .44 cast loads , good boolit, etc but after shooting I said they had mag primers. Huge argument on the phone and the sites so I went to the factory and this is the actual response.
WE use CCI 350 primers in our 44MAGs. I hope that helps you out. Thanks. Mike McNett
Then I said Federal uses standard primers, argument over and over so I went to to Fed.
I don't know that we ever used anything other than the 150 primer in the 44 mag. Without going too far back I checked the 2007 catalog on my desk and it was used at least that far back. Hope this helps.

[44man]

See JWP, you do a disservice to others with no truth or proof. There are times you should shut your pie hole.
Can I tell what primer is in a load, darn right.
I never lie. I do not bluff or puff my chest. Only facts to help and that is my only goal, to make everyone better.
I agree with Subsonic, he is a wonderful person and so is everyone else here. You are harming a post.
GO AWAY unless you can contribute. You would be welcome if you actually made sense.

[jwp475]

See JWP, you do a disservice to others with no truth or proof. There are times you should shut your pie hole.
Can I tell what primer is in a load, darn right.
I never lie. I do not bluff or puff my chest. Only facts to help and that is my only goal, to make everyone better.
I agree with Subsonic, he is a wonderful person and so is everyone else here. You are harming a post.
GO AWAY unless you can contribute. You would be welcome if you actually made sense.


That is something I do not know today. But before, WW got a different batch. Both canister powders had enough difference so they did shoot apart. It was not like lot to lot.
I still only use 296. I never buy H110 because of the differences I had before.
H110 was choice in the RH, but never in the SBH or SRH.
Canister powders were designated and any batch too far either side of burn rates went to ammo makers with burn rate test equipment to adjust loads.
I feel that H110 and 296 are still enough apart to make a difference.
Hodgdon now has most powders but how do you know burn rates are made the same? If true, why are H110 and 296 still offered as separate powders?
Many, many powders start life as the same but get different numbers according to burn rates.
Chose your powder from "experts" here or go by powder company numbers, your choice.
An "expert" is one that sees a difference when shot.
Do you know the difference in one powder and another can be just the shape, length and size of the hole through the center and the components are exactly the same? Even a ball powder shape changes the burn, some flat, some round but both the same ingredients. Coatings are different to impede or enhance burn rates. Same powders, different numbers so why don't you load the same amounts? Why don't you load 60 gr of 4064 in your rifle because it takes 60 gr of 4831? Just how different are the components? Why don't you look at the shape of the same ingredients? Double base, single base, no matter, many powder numbers are made from the same. Shape and coatings are the differences. A batch that goes here or there even if the same is based on burn rate.
JWP, you can baffle some but not those that know.
We have thousands of powders with most made from the same exact stuff.


I posted the thruth and backed it up with facts that are easily confirmed. The facts speak for themselves

[MaxEnergy]

There are times you should shut your pie hole.
Can I tell what primer is in a load, darn right.
I never lie. I do not bluff or puff my chest. Only facts to help and that is my only goal, to make everyone better.
GO AWAY unless you can contribute. You would be welcome if you actually made sense.

dang, was that really necessary? looks to me like his contribution was clarifying a mistatement by you

[44man]

dang, was that really necessary? looks to me like his contribution was clarifying a mistatement by you
No, H110 and 296 were always a step apart. One shot better in one gun and the other was better in another. It was only a burn rate to go to WW or Hodgdon.
Can you understand that JWP has jumped in to discredit only.
Go way back and his hatred is based on some comments I made about Freedom guns with problems. Before then we were friends and talked on the phone many times. Once I said something about Freedom he got very confrontational and it has not stopped.
I do not hate him. But he will never leave me alone.
It is up to you to determine truth. I have never, ever made a misstatement.
Believe me or him but did you vote for Obama?
JWP can never clarify any statement. I asked him but he dodges.
Why don't you ask JWP for proof?

[jwp475]

Did you miss post number 24 above?



Just got off the phone with Hogdon (913-362-9455) and they confirmed that H-110 and W-296 are indeed the same powder

Just to set the record straight. Anyone can call and verify same as I did


Facts seem to not get in your way of spreading misinformation

[Trey45]

How about if we just say everyone is right, would that make everyone happy? I swear it's like babysitting a bunch of 10 year olds on this forum sometimes. Please don't make us have to lock YET ANOTHER thread! I'm going to suggest that JWP and 44man put each other on ignore for the benefit of THE ENTIRE FORUM. Seriously, knock it off, take it to PM, stop hijacking this guys thread, behave, grow up and anything else you can think of that will make the staff's job a bit easier.

[snowwolfe]

Powders can change from lot to lot, they can even change from can to can within the same lot number.
First, it is true 110 and 296 are exactly the same but allow me to pass along some information about different lot numbers.

I enjoy hunting with double rifles and generally speaking to regulate them you need to either add powder to speed up the loads if they are shooting wide, or slow them down if they are crossing. I have owned doubles where the regulation changed simply because of changing lot numbers of the same powder. In one instance the regulation changed when going to a fresh 1 pound can within the same lot. After discovering this I'll only buy 8 pound jugs of powder.

What one shooter experiences with 110 could be slightly different than what another observed with 296. Its normal. But they are the same powder produced by the same company.

Cheers.

[jwp475]

Powders can change from lot to lot, they can even change from can to can within the same lot number.
First, it is true 110 and 296 are exactly the same but allow me to pass along some information about different lot numbers.

I enjoy hunting with double rifles and generally speaking to regulate them you need to either add powder to speed up the loads if they are shooting wide, or slow them down if they are crossing. I have owned doubles where the regulation changed simply because of changing lot numbers of the same powder. In one instance the regulation changed when going to a fresh 1 pound can within the same lot. After discovering this I'll only buy 8 pound jugs of powder.

What one shooter experiences with 110 could be slightly different than what another observed with 296. Its normal. But they are the same powder produced by the same company.

Cheers.




Exactly!!! Spot on,,,,,

[Lloyd Smale]

No doubt they used to be slightly differnt. Probably just lot to lot variations but i did use to have differnt results with them. I too called hogdon a while back. Mostly to get the 4227 deal straigtened out but did ask about 110/296 too and they said they both now come out of the same dispensor into differnt colared bottles. I asked why they didnt discontinure one of them and this is what i was told. They sell enough 296 to justify keeping it for now. At least until people better believe its the same thing. Unlike 4227 in which both had the same designation making it easier for people to beleive there the same thing.

[44man]

No doubt they used to be slightly differnt. Probably just lot to lot variations but i did use to have differnt results with them. I too called hogdon a while back. Mostly to get the 4227 deal straigtened out but did ask about 110/296 too and they said they both now come out of the same dispensor into differnt colared bottles. I asked why they didnt discontinure one of them and this is what i was told. They sell enough 296 to justify keeping it for now. At least until people better believe its the same thing. Unlike 4227 in which both had the same designation making it easier for people to beleive there the same thing.
That is the info I asked about because I have not bought later H110. What I have left is the old stuff and there was just enough difference.
It was more then lot to lot.
Thanks Lloyd.
I will quit and shut my pie hole too. Understand my friend John has done this to me on every site I went to so it does get tiresome.
No, I do not get angry with him but personal stuff has no business here.
The moderator is correct so I apologize. If I rubbed anyone the wrong way, I am sorry.

[frank505]

I just buy 150 pound kegs of WC 820 and never worry about lot variation

[redhawk45]

They may be the same but they sure shoot different.

[jwp475]

That is the info I asked about because I have not bought later H110. What I have left is the old stuff and there was just enough difference.
It was more then lot to lot.
Thanks Lloyd.
I will quit and shut my pie hole too. Understand my friend John has done this to me on every site I went to so it does get tiresome.
No, I do not get angry with him but personal stuff has no business here.
The moderator is correct so I apologize. If I rubbed anyone the wrong way, I am sorry.




There is no personal "stuff" when anyone posts in correct info they should not get there feeling hurt if someone calls them on it

[AK Caster]

I just buy 150 pound kegs of WC 820 and never worry about lot variation

Good idea. Could split this with a couple of buddies.

Where do you get a 150 pound keg and approximately what do they cost?

[frank505]

GI Brass (Jeff Bartlett) used to have some. After burning some two hundred pounds of it 45 Colts, me and oaks like a lot. Rem 2 1/2 primers are our favorites with CCI 300 second. Silver colored Winchesters are real good also, but no longer made. Oaks is working on some MagTech primers which show promise.
The first one I bought came right from one of the guys who bought it at a DOD surplus auction. It was cheap, the second one was $6 per pound. Good Luck

[Lefty SRH]

This may be a dumb question but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'm no guru when it comes to the BIG Bore wheelguns, I am still learning my .44mag, .45colt, and my .480 Ruger.
I can't tell a difference in group size in either of these 3 guns when I run out of a 1lb can of H110 and have to open a new can. I don't see a difference inthe different LOTS.
I've chronoed my loads but have not shot ALL my shots over a chrono.
What are you seeing different in LOT to LOT or 296 compared to H110?

[tek4260]

This may be a dumb question but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'm no guru when it comes to the BIG Bore wheelguns, I am still learning my .44mag, .45colt, and my .480 Ruger.
I can't tell a difference in group size in either of these 3 guns when I run out of a 1lb can of H110 and have to open a new can. I don't see a difference inthe different LOTS.
I've chronoed my loads but have not shot ALL my shots over a chrono.
What are you seeing different in LOT to LOT or 296 compared to H110?

I don't think most of us, me included, are good enough from day to day to notice the difference. Only the Chrony tells off on the difference in lots I suppose. FWIW, if your dealer is like mine and the customer base is similar, those cans you are opening probably are from the same lot as the last can you had :smile:

[44man]

This may be a dumb question but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'm no guru when it comes to the BIG Bore wheelguns, I am still learning my .44mag, .45colt, and my .480 Ruger.
I can't tell a difference in group size in either of these 3 guns when I run out of a 1lb can of H110 and have to open a new can. I don't see a difference inthe different LOTS.
I've chronoed my loads but have not shot ALL my shots over a chrono.
What are you seeing different in LOT to LOT or 296 compared to H110?
Lot to lot can mean a small change in your powder measure, maybe a tenth of a gr or so. Just weight but both shoot the same.
Lloyd explained it, now hodgdon uses the same lots for both but earlier Hodgdon got a different rate then WW. I always found the earlier H110 needed 1/2 gr more but was only accurate in the RH and not in the SBH, SRH or S&W. But my shooting was in the area of 1/2" or so at 50 yards so I could tell the difference.
Forget the chrono, it was accuracy.
You need to understand that every batch is never the same and some never go into canister powders but go to ammo makers with test equipment. They dare not issue those to us reloaders. Canister powders are held to strict rates. H110 had a different rate then 296 at one time and now IMR powders and Hodgdon might also be exactly the same since Hodgdon handles all of them. Soon we might see some numbers go away.
Same as primers. I do see a difference and will tell you what primer is used in a factory load.
But I must be corrected all the time. I am famous for giving false information and telling lies! [smilie=l: