finding the right powder charge for accuracy?

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

I know it's critical for rifles, but it seems that you folks here dial in your powder charges for pistol based on the velocity you want, not what is simply most accurate. Your groups here are quite impressive.

I ask because I'm trying some VERY EXPENSIVE bullets, and it is really hard to pick a charge to start with. Testing a range of charges would bankrupt me. It almost seems like a waste to make a "random guess" and go for it. On the other hand, I have a compelling reason to experiment with expensive bullets (living in a non-lead state), and simply have to make do.

Bottom line, is there a path to accuracy that I can take in a more efficient way, or is there no way around the same basic principles we use for rifle load development?

[subsonic]

If you are familiar with ladder testing, that could work for you.

Or you can just copy someone else.

Other than that, no magic formula I know of.

[subsonic]

Also, since you are probably trying for a full power hunting load, once you have established the maximum safe charge, you can work down until accuracy is acceptable. You won't care how much accuracy you can get at plinking velocities, so don't bother testing there.

If you tell us what combination of stuff you need/want to use, some of us might venture a gaze into the crystal ball and have some advice directly related to your application.

[Larry Gibson]

By all means, use the "ladder" method..........[smilie=b:

Yes, I am being facitious.........[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Now that I got that out of my system....

Bottom line, is there a path to accuracy that I can take in a more efficient way, or is there no way around the same basic principles we use for rifle load development?

Bottom line; there is not way around the basic primciples for load development. You can use "consensous" of opinion on a load and go with it. However, unless you seriously test you will not know if there is/was a better and more accurate load. Or, if you are capable using of a "better, more accurate load".

Larry Gibson

[subsonic]

I take it you're not a fan of the ladder method Larry? :bigsmyl2:

I'm not looking to yank the wheel on the thread, and I have very little experience with the ladder method. Just passing on something I have seen *some* people have *some* success with. A succinct reply, yes or no, whether you have solid evidence that it is a poor method or not will suffice.

I know you are one of the few with the kind of equipment it takes to actually prove things like this.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, so basically, no different than for rifle. Got it. Sometimes its seems as though the folks here circumvent the process. Must be those 30-50 years of shooting, or something :)

[Whiterabbit]

Interesting. I had to look up ladder testing now, because I made an assumption of what it actually was, but now it became relevant to completely understand it because it directly affects in this thread.

....so what happens when the shooter has a flyer during a ladder test? doesn't that invalidate all his work? doesn't that seem like kind of a risky and error prone method of load development?

[tacklebury]

Fliers are called and thrown out. You make 2 additional rounds for each rung, in case of a problem shot. 8)

[Wolfer]

In common guns that have been around a long time, ie, 357, 45 colt, 44 spl or mag there will be common popular loads for them. I've found that when a load is popular for a long time and in a lot of places there's usually a good reason. Doesn't mean your gun won't shoot something else better but these are a good place to start.

[1bluehorse]

In common guns that have been around a long time, ie, 357, 45 colt, 44 spl or mag there will be common popular loads for them. I've found that when a load is popular for a long time and in a lot of places there's usually a good reason. Doesn't mean your gun won't shoot something else better but these are a good place to start.

Yep, couldn't have said it better....also agree with Larry on this one.

[ReloaderFred]

A good place to start is the Lyman Manuals. They always list the most accurate load they found during testing with THEIR equipment. I've found most of their most accurate loads also worked well in my handguns, too. At least it's a place to start.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[garym1a2]

Post caliber, bullet, gun details and what you want out of it and u will get lots of help.

[gray wolf]

You can take a load from a friend or a book and you get what you get.
You can use the best load in a loading book and you get what you get.
When we say the best load--to me that is the best I can do with that bullet and that pistol for the task at hand. The best shot placement and accuracy is not always from the hottest load, could be, but not usually.
I guess it's what we want to settle for and call good enough.
Sometimes we just have to get those few extra bullets. it takes me a minimum of about 30 rounds to get started. Sometimes people just don't understand.
I got involved in helping someone load for the 44 Mag. I can't afford the bullets,
The mold I have is way below the task, and it has been very frustrating for me.
I know what needs to be done but I am about a mold and a sizer die short.
If you can't afford more components do the best you can and stay within the limitations of what your testing shows you.
I think if you give the info that has been asked for from some of the others there is a great chance they can shorten the process for you. At least move you in the right direction.

[44man]

For a revolver it usually takes me 12 to 15 shots to find a load.
No, I am not going to shoot several hundred 10 shot groups. I can tell with 3 shots of each load.
With say 296 that I use most, I go in 1/2 gr amounts from just above minimum loads to max. Somewhere in there they will shoot. Velocity does not matter at all. So if I find 23.5 gr shoots, you will never see me try 23.6 gr because if anyone can say it is better, they must shoot like a robot. If I go to 24 and the group opens, I go back down 1/2 gr.
I use the K.I.S.S system so if the weather changes and the gun might shoot better with 2/10's more or less powder, tough, it is not enough to worry about.
It is so hard to get even case tension that nothing else you can do will go around that.
The very last thing I will tell you is to "nit pick." If it is hot one day and you shoot a good group but it opens a little the next day when it cools, should you change lube or powder charge? I am not going there! [smilie=s: I do not want 40 boxes of loads for every temperature or barometric change.
For me, a good load works in most guns too, SBH, SRH, Hunter, S&W, Dan Wesson, etc. My loads for BFR's also works in all the others I have shot. Not a single gun has needed a different load.
What drives me nuts is when a friends gun shoots better then my gun with my load.
I have watched groups shrink to the smallest, then open at the same rate they shrank. What would you do? Simple, use the smallest group load. It seems I did that with rifles too.
Fliers! I found as I softened the revolver boolit, I got more and more of them. Too soft just made large patterns so all were just fliers.

[wtfooptimax200]

How do you feel about the Optimal Charge Weight method vs the Ladder Method?

[44man]

How do you feel about the Optimal Charge Weight method vs the Ladder Method?
Every boolit is different and needs a little different, maybe 1/2 gr. It can not be predicted or on some chart.
The ladder works with rifles at long ranges but are any of us good enough to use it with a revolver? It sure does not work at 25 or 50 yards, are you kidding me?
I even doubt the ladder with a rifle. All my life I just worked the smallest groups. I worked loads like I do for any gun, pick the best powder and find the best accuracy load.
Some look for "tricks" but there are none. My revolver and long ago, my rifle groups were not "tricks", Just a little shooting and even more thinking at the bench.
It will surprise you how much you can relax and toss all those theories out.

[Larry Gibson]

As with 44man i do not waste a lot of time and componants with handgun load development. It is not necessary as there are enough "standard" loads of known performance for most every handgun cartridge. I simply start with one of those and may tweak it a bit in one direction or the other for an individual handgun. For me "serious testing" with revolvers involes "twice around the cylinder" and with semi's 2 mags full (or one mag if high capacity)with a selected load. That tells me for sure whether that set of componants is worth pursuing in that handgun. Most often the "standard load" shoots just fine and I go with that unless it is a scoped/Red Dot equiped handgun capable of excellent accuracy. For example; just how much load develoment do I need to do with a 4 3/4" Single Action used for CBA shooting when all I need is hit a fairly large target at a max range of 10 yards? Conversly with my Contender 22 Hornet with 6X scope that i want to hit a small ground squirrel at 150 yards with required a bit more "load development" of the traditional kind.

A "called" shot can be disregarded as it is caused by the shooter. A "flyer" is not caused by the shooter and is telling you something about the load is not right and thus the "flyer" should not be "discounted" or ignored.

Audette's ladder method works fine for what he devoped it for; to find a load that his automatic powder dispenser with a +/- 1.5 gr with IMR4350 for use in his .300 Win Mag match rifle at 600 yards and 1000 yards. Audette already knew what the accuracy load was for his match rifle as he had worked that up the traditional way. He just wanted to see if he could find a "sweet spot" where loads varying +/- 1.5 gr would hit in the same place with accuracy at those specific ranges. His method works for that but he went back and confirmed with numerous 10 shot test strings. His method was never intended for "load development" for a specific accuracy load. It has been aborted by internet "experts" into such use.

If you understand random dispersion of shots within a group (cone of fire) and what a proper sample for stattistical assurance then you'll understand how the "ladder method" doesn't work for finding a specific accuracy load. Simply because 3 or more shots from different loads happen to land close together tells you absolutely nothing about the inherent accuracy of any of those loads.....or the load that didn't land close to the 3 shots.

The "ladder method" doesn't really work for accuracy load development with a rifle and to think it would with a handgun at very short ranges is somewhat absurd. "Accuracy is totally dependant on the specific combination.It is therefore impossible to "theoretically" predict the result. The dispersion of the bullet is mainly determined by the stability of the launch platform/system, which off course includes the shooter. The final point of seperation is off course the moment of muzzle exit. The stability of the muzzle and its ability to return to the same position is therefore the most important aspect. This stability is controlled, and determined, by a complex interaction of the different components of the "system". This combination of primer, cartridge-case, powder type and charge, projectile/bullet and internal chamber/barrel dimensions will deliver a particular pressure impulse. The dynamic characteristics of this impulse are very specific to a certain combination. How the "launch platform" Rifle reacts to this impulse, determines the stability, and as a result the accuracy/dispersion. This specific reaction of the launch platform can be described the “dynamic character or finger print” of the combination/system. That’s why an “accurate load”, can only be achieved through incremental adjustments, and/or variations of these different components and parameters. The only way to properly do this is, to always start at the minimum or start load, and work up towards the maximum suggested load, with the components at one’s disposal. If the desired accuracy is not achieved, the second phase will be to adjust or change the components, i.e. primer, case, case condition, projectile/bullet,Cartridge length etc or the type of powder . The important thing to remember is to change/vary only one parameter/component at a time."

Larry Gibson

[1bluehorse]

Man, a lot of stuff thats way over my head..personally I tend more to the Bill Clinton method, ie; it depends on your "definition" of "accurate". I could be way out of line here, but what I've seen at different shooting venues, (amatuer) is that even a "good" load in a handgun will outshoot most shooters....

[Larry Gibson]

even a "good" load in a handgun will outshoot most shooters....

And so it will. That's why a mag full or twise around the cylinder with a "standard" load will tell the tale. For most, trying to find the "most accurate" load will result in not telling the tale but chasing the tail instead.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Most every gun I have owned with a good load could have the sights or scope adjusted from one shot because I knew the gun and load.
A few come to sight in rifles and they fiddle with the scope after one shot using factory loads. I watch for a few shots and ask what the heck are you doing? Take at least 3 shots and adjust from the center. I find they are shooting 6" or larger groups and they are chasing one shot.
Then I find they take another few boxes of factory loads out and they are different brands and weights. I shake my head and try to explain.
These are deer hunters sighting to hunt!
I ask why they don't reload and they say they don't shoot that much---WELL THEY SHOULD! That is a live animal at the end of the barrel, SOB, it tweaks me off!
I find most hunters are dense in the extreme. Most never take the gun out until opening day. It is why I found 12 dead deer on one property alone.
I have come to realize that you can not talk to some people and they vote!
Larry is right. If 5 or 6 shots, even 10 or 12 does not tell you something, you are dense or can't shoot. Even 3 shots should work.
Not much of a problem here because we all shoot and shoot and shoot. We live to shoot. Some hunters will starve if they shot to live!

[felix]

44Man, not three shots, but only two are necessary. I've seen a collection of BR barrels in a box that I could have had for cost each that had only two shots through them since shipped from the maker. Hart barrels, though, took around 50 shots minimum to make that determination to junk them or not. ... felix

[44man]

44Man, not three shots, but only two are necessary. I've seen a collection of BR barrels in a box that I could have had for cost each that had only two shots through them since shipped from the maker. Hart barrels, though, took around 50 shots minimum to make that determination to junk them or not. ... felix
But that is break in for the smallest groups. Maybe even more about harmonics due to grain structure.
Put two shots in the same hole would be super. Then heating might make a barrel less then what you want.
The thing that gripes me most is when someone says you need 200 shots to "season" a barrel with cast. Then if you clean the barrel you need another 200 shots! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: That means ONE good group after 200 shots, clean and shoot 200 more for another good group.
I am guilty of 2 shots at 100 with a revolver to be sure. Forgive me for having to walk down to set a can back up and putting the second shot in the same hole. I had to walk 100 yards over and over to put 5 shots in 3/4" in a can with my revolver. The stupid things fall off the rail! :veryconfu
Yet you do agree, it does not take a million shots to prove a thing.
The nut behind the trigger shoots groups or wastes every boolit. You really can load everything on earth and never hit a thing because you, yourself can not shoot. It is like shooting pure lead at 1500 fps and saying it shoots good, it is because you do not know what "good" is.
A BR shooter knows, an IHMSA shooter, a sniper, a varmint hunter and a true deer hunter knows but a guy blasting at 25 yards to make noise is lost. Same as steel plate shooters at close range, accuracy is not needed, just speed. Some are so fantastic it is hard to believe but let them shoot a target at 100 yards once.
Watch Bob Munden (spelling) and some of the best. You better believe the boolits go to where the barrel points. Bob would never do what he does with a load that shoots 3" at 25 yards. Nobody can steer a boolit.

[subsonic]

For most, trying to find the "most accurate" load will result in not telling the tale but chasing the tail instead.

Larry Gibson

No more true words have been spoken. Learn to shoot, then learn to work up loads. I shoot pretty decent and still would be hard pressed to sort out loads at times.

Before you try to "work up" an accurate load, pick a safe load and shoot 5 groups with it. If all 5 are all not very simliar in size with all other conditions the same, why are you wasting time changing components?

[bigboredad]

No more true words have been spoken. Learn to shoot, then learn to work up loads. I shoot pretty decent and still would be hard pressed to sort out loads at times.

Before you try to "work up" an accurate load, pick a safe load and shoot 5 groups with it. If all 5 are all not very simliar in size with all other conditions the same, why are you wasting time changing components?

That's sums up my thoughts as well I sold off some very nice molds cause the style of bullet just wouldn't shoot only to find out the problem all along was me:oops: now that was a bad day

[gray wolf]

44 MAN you have a wonderful gift for saying what is.
No bull SS**** just the facts. Fact is you are correct.