Running out of ideas

[myfriendis410]

I've been working up a load for my Pedersoli Sharps 1874 in 45/70. Using a Lyman round nose in 500 gr. that casts out at 517 using 50/50 ww and range lead with a bit of tin. The best accuracy I've been able to achieve has been around 2.5" with the following formula:

Bullet sized to .452" and wrapped with tracing paper, wet. Sized with my own lube recipe to .458" and loaded ahead of (the best grouping load) 42.5 gr. IMR 4895. The bullet is seated just off the lands and is taper crimped just enough to hold in place. Case is R-P and a Federal 210M primer. The bullets are not heat-treated.

This rifle will shoot the same bullet cast from straight ww using IMR 4198 to less than 1" at 100 yards. Same with jacketed stuff.

I've tried a variety of papers both wet and dry, loaded as-wrapped, sized, a variety of powder charges and types. Velocity is in the 1,550 fps range depending on powder and charge. The two best powders have turned out to be Benchmark and 4895. I've tried AA2230, 4198, 3031.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[waksupi]

How does it shoot with an unpatched boolit?

[geargnasher]

My Shiloh 45/90 will shoot that boolit patched with two wraps of wet, lined notebook paper into 2-1/2" at 200 yards with the .040" tang aperture and front x insert using 40 grains of Reloder 7 (remember, 45/90 here, not 45/70!) and a grain of Dacron. The driving bands are rolled on a case lube pad and sized to .4525" in a Lee push-through, then the nose is "cleaned up" in a Lee .44 Magnum carbide sizer die to make a perfect bore-ride fit, and the dried patch smeared with a soft beexwax/Vaseline mix an base-first sized to .459". Cases are "neck sized" in a .45/70 sizer die just enough to hold the boolit with about .0015" tension and only crimped enough to remove enough bellmouth to barely chamber. I never had the same accuracy with 3031 or 4198 that I did with Reloder 7, but those three are all I've shot other than black powder in this rifle.

A lot of what you're doing sounds similar to what I do that works great in my gun, I'd try some more patched boolits using undiluted wheel weights plus a pinch of tin and see if the harder boolit helps. I'm thinking the bore riding part may be slumping off-center into the rifling upon "launch".

Something else that works very well is this, the 535-grain Postell boolit from straight, air-cooled wheel weights and sized/patched the same as above, but with the patch extending over the ogive to protect the entire contact surface.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e2b37df9f01b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1549)

Gear

[runfiverun]

try not roll crimping.

[zuke]

Try skipping the second 458 sizing.
I size mine to 452 then patch,load and fire.

[pdawg_shooter]

Seating the patch INTO the rifling might help too. I have found tracing paper a bit to fragile for most uses.

[myfriendis410]

How does it shoot with an unpatched boolit? With a cast, heat treated ww/tin bullet it shoots under 1".

Try using RL7. I haven't tried it simply because I have a ridiculous amount of different powders to work with. I may give it a try.

I'd try some more patched boolits using undiluted wheel weights plus a pinch of tin and see if the harder boolit helps. I will give that a try. I have a supply of ww cast bullets that are heat treated and aged. I have been reluctant to do so due to a finite and diminishing supply of ww (I live in California where lead ww are outlawed).

try not roll crimping. I am neck-sizing and belling the case after annealing and only taper crimping enough to hold the bullet and seat in the chamber.

Try skipping the second 458 sizing. I loaded five rounds without sizing after wrap. I'll try those today or tomorrow.

Seating the patch INTO the rifling might help too. I am seating right up against the rifling now.

I have found tracing paper a bit to fragile for most uses. Tracing paper is the thinnest paper that is still tough enough to wrap wet that I've found so far. I've tried copy paper, graph paper and vellum with similar results to the tracing paper, but the other papers are quite a bit thicker and upset the bullet further when sizing to .458".

I thought I might try sizing after wrap to .459" but don't yet have the die to do so.

I will also try some straight ww bullets to see if that makes a difference.

BTW; all of my cast bullets are weight sorted as well to +- 2 gr.

[pdawg_shooter]

I size my bullets .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. The 16# green bar printer paper I use goes on wet with a LOT of stretch and when dry adds just about .010. In my 3 45-70s this is .4515 before patching and ..460 after the patch dries. I lube and run through a .459 die and after spring back it is still .460. I load them that way over a powder slow enough to give 100% load density. I seat the bullet to give around .010 engagement with the rifling. Any paper thinner than 16# has never held up for me.

[303Guy]

The tracing paper I have is the toughest stuff ever. It's the thickness of lined notepad paper but 'solid'. It expands a lot when wet and shrinks real tight and if over soaked, it breaks its structure forming white-ish patches like clear plastic does when bent sharply.

[myfriendis410]

The tracing paper I have is the toughest stuff ever. It's the thickness of lined notepad paper but 'solid'. It expands a lot when wet and shrinks real tight and if over soaked, it breaks its structure forming white-ish patches like clear plastic does when bent sharply.

That sounds like the stuff I'm using. It's really tough. Stretches quite a bit when wet and shrinks tightly to the bullet.

[bigted]

if the boolit your using is the lyman 457125 boolit here is my experience with it...

i sized it to the .452 and wrapped back to .458 with the 9 pound onionshin from baco and this leaded badly from what i expect was the nose that filled the rifling with lead with my duplex bp loads....next i try it with sizing to the .452 and this time i wrapped clear up to just past the noseriding round nose of the stupid thing making it to be loaded way inside the case...this fully keyholed at 35 yards with every shot. ...next i try it with smokless powder in both configurations and it acted the same as it did with the duplex loads so i gave up on this boolit for my pp'ing experiments. it shoots well as a greeser thru most of my rifles including the pederosoli long range express tho.

[myfriendis410]

Here is the load shot with as-wrapped and no lube or sizing. It's typical of the accuracy I have been getting with this bullet.

[myfriendis410]

So; I did a couple of things. Tried RL7 shooting for a velocity between 1,500 and 1,600 fps. I used as-wrapped sketch paper without running through the sizer, being careful to get a TIGHT wrap. I coated the paper patch with automotive wax and allowed it to dry. The load was seated to the lands with a very light taper crimp on the bullet.

See the target attached. Velocity was 1,510 fps average.

[303Guy]

I love it! I bet there was some difference somewhere that cause the two separate groups on the target. I've weighed castings and found they have quantum differences in weight. that would be due to a speck getting under the sprue or something. I wonder what would happen if'n you were to weigh out your components?

P.S. Would you mind adding your posts #12 & #13 to the sticky "Questions on basic theory and technique"? I think your contribution would be valuable to all.

[myfriendis410]

The bullets were weighed to within +- 2 grains. The paper was wrapped as tightly as possible and cut to NOT overlap--just meet or come close. That and the use of RL7 seemed to do the trick. If I knew how to add those posts I would.