Model 94 and 311466 off to a poor start.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Well, as the title says I'm off to a dismal beginning. I loaded some 311466's with 9.3 grains of Unique, using LLA as a lube. I couldn't get on target at 25 yds. The one that hit the target was broadside. :groner: I didn't have expectations of glorious groups, but this is ridiculous. Leading was horrible 2" forward of the chamber and extended to within 8" of the barrel. When I ran these through my Lee sizer they didn't size much at all and chambered with some resistance but nothing usual. The alloy was 3-1 WW/RL. I really just venting here. The first step will be a different lube.

The saga begins.

Regards,
Everett

[Plumb Center]

I shoot 311466 in a 94 100th anniversary model with good success. My barrel slugged .3085 and I sized WW bullets to .3095. Loaded 18g. of 4198 with good success right away. Sounds like your mold may be casting undersized with all that leading. Maybe others can, but I never seem to have success with cast unless I know the groove dia. and then choose a bullet diameter 1 or 2 thousandths over that. Slugging the barrel and measuring bullets is not wasted time in the search for cast bullet accuracy.
Jim

[405]

311466 in a 94 lever gun?? That isn't a first choice for that rifle or even a distant second choice for that matter. Any reason to use that bullet? Are you using a gas check on it? Given the results you describe, I don't believe there is magic in changing lube but I'd try try a soft lube that fills the grooves. You might be able to get it to shoot OK by sizing to at least groove diameter. But the bullets of choice for that gun in a 30-30 lever gun would be the Lyman 311041 and the RCBS 30-150 FN GC sized to groove diameter up to about groove diameter plus .001".

[Larry Gibson]

GC'd?

Larry Gibson

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Yes I gas checked the boolit. I assumed (key word) that the many grooves in the loverin boolit would hold enough LLA to make it usable.

Sized to groove? I sized to .311. I thought if it fit in the throat, that was the way to go. The groove dia is .3095.

Picked this boolit as the weight was what I wanted to shoot.

Regards,
Everett

[Larry Gibson]

The 311466 is an excellent bullet and if sized at .311 (what I size mine at) and shot in a .3095 barreled 30-30 M94 they should not key hole. Please don't get offended but, assuming the bore is in good condition, check the crown and make sure it isn't damaged. If the crown is good then I'm betting the alloy (3-1 WW/RL is the culprit.

That alloy is very rich in antimony, especially if the RL is a mix of cast and jacketed cores. I suggest with the COWWs you ad 2% tin. That will make an excellent alloy byit self with AC'd bullets being 14-17 BHN. If you want to stretch the WWs add lead on the order of 8 lbs WWs+2% tin to 2 lbs of lead.

The RL, if it is a mix as I described, will make excellent bullets by adding 2% tin and then adding lead al 3 lbs RL+2% tin to 1 lb lead. Those will cast very well and will have a AC'd BHN of 10-12. If you cast hot (750 degrees) and WQ the BHn will be 21 -24, excellent for top end rifle loads.

You might want to double dip the bullets in the LLA also before sizing.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

I don't use LLA so can't speak to that issue. But, that aside I see no reason you should be having the issues you are having. There is something more working here that I am not seeing.

[runfiverun]

try some powder in the cases.
and ditch the alox.
your rifle might like a waterdropped boolit too.
i have used the loverign in a couple of my 94's [my savage 340 loves it] i have to seat it pretty deep to use it in the levergun though.
but i have pushed it to over 2400 in the 340 and over 2200 in the 94 with good accuracy.

[hightime]

Unigue won't work without a tight crimp.

Owen

[Dan Cash]

Ditch the Alox and put some powder in the case; slow burning powder and get some velocity up. I know that the conventional wisdom is low velocity and fast burning powder like Unique but it does not work for me, at least not in large capacity cases. Furthermore, it is downright dangerous as a double charge is just waiting to happen.

In your case, if the bullet fits the bore, I think you are getting blow by and insufficient velocity to stabilize the bullet.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Thank all for the input. I will try the alloy change first. I don't want to change more than one thing at a time. I will try to get some cast up this evening and test the change. I will report back.

Regards,
Everett

[Larry Gibson]

I don't want to change more than one thing at a time.

That is best but, as mentioned, that is a pretty low load of Unique for efficient burning. I'd suggest a minimum of 10 gr.

Larry Gibson

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Larry,

Thanks for the input. I assumed (again) that a lower charge would allow for a easier path to accuracy by lowering the velocity. I know 10 grains is "the load" but had seen several references to 5-7 grains in the 30-30.

Anyways, much to learn here as this is my first time to play with a 30-30.

Regards,
Everett

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

The 311466 is an excellent bullet and if sized at .311 (what I size mine at) and shot in a .3095 barreled 30-30 M94 they should not key hole. Please don't get offended but, assuming the bore is in good condition, check the crown and make sure it isn't damaged. If the crown is good then I'm betting the alloy (3-1 WW/RL is the culprit.

That alloy is very rich in antimony, especially if the RL is a mix of cast and jacketed cores. I suggest with the COWWs you ad 2% tin. That will make an excellent alloy byit self with AC'd bullets being 14-17 BHN. If you want to stretch the WWs add lead on the order of 8 lbs WWs+2% tin to 2 lbs of lead.

The RL, if it is a mix as I described, will make excellent bullets by adding 2% tin and then adding lead al 3 lbs RL+2% tin to 1 lb lead. Those will cast very well and will have a AC'd BHN of 10-12. If you cast hot (750 degrees) and WQ the BHn will be 21 -24, excellent for top end rifle loads.

You might want to double dip the bullets in the LLA also before sizing.

Larry Gibson

Do you think my alloy is too soft?

[Larry Gibson]

Do you think my alloy is too soft?

Not if you want a low end load with accuracy. With 5-7 gr og Unique it just isn't going to burn efficiently behind the lighter weight 311466. For the low end loads switch to BE; start at .4.5 gr and work up to 6 gr.

That bullet at 1150 fps and single loaded in my M94 is a very deadly grouse load to 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

balance....

[btroj]

Run hit on a key concept in shooting cast.

Balance

You need to balance the alloy, bullet, powder, pressure, and many other things. A powder that is fine at one charge may not work at another because you changed the balance.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Things are getting better. I'm now holding a honest 3" pattern at 50 yds. I know a three inch group at 50 isn't anything to write home about but it beats keyholeing at 25.:groner: I shot 30 rounds with no leading and the three fliers that I had were all my fault.

I upped the the hardness by mixing 10-1 high antimony, tin based babbit and range lead and water dropped them. I switched lube to Ben's Red and upped the charge to 10 grains of Unique. Lots of changes at once, but it got me on paper. Now to start playing with one variable at a time and see if I can tune it in.

Thanks to everone who offered suggestions.

Regards,
Everett

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Things are getting better. I'm now holding a honest 3" pattern at 50 yds. I know a three inch group at 50 isn't anything to write home about but it beats keyholeing at 25.:groner: I shot 30 rounds with no leading and the three fliers that I had were all my fault.

I upped the the hardness by mixing 10-1 high antimony, tin based babbit and range lead and water dropped them. I switched lube to Ben's Red and upped the charge to 10 grains of Unique. Lots of changes at once, but it got me on paper. Now to start playing with one variable at a time and see if I can tune it in.

Thanks to everone who offered suggestions.

Regards,
Everett