9mm again and I am in Spin Zone : Shoot me please !

[milprileb]

Conditions:
I use a M die, 358 size, I use Lee TC 120 gr, I use White Label BAC lube, I use Lyman 450 sizer with .358 die in it. Pistol bore slugs at .357 , I am using 5.7 gr of Blue Dot powder. I use a light crimp and I am crimping separately with a standard RCBS taper crimp die.

Results: If my alloy is 50 50 lead to Wheel Weights, I get leading. If my alloy is
80% WW to 20% lead, I don't get leading. Does not matter on seating depth of bullets, the leading only happens if I shoot 50 50 alloy bullets.

My Issue: I wanted to go to 50 50 lead to wheel weights as WW are hard to find and Lead is not. I got more Lead than WW so if I could use 50 50, my metal would go a longer way in bullets.

Thoughts: Could this load be too hot or is it not hot enough to "Bump" bullets and could either of these reason be the cause for 50 50 alloy bullet to lead barrel?

Alternate question: Would 50 50 alloy be okay for 45 acp ? If so that would ease the drain on my WW supply of metal.

I know I am fighting the problem and should just resolve to not use 50 50 alloy but I am stubborn enough to just not surrender right now. I see others using softer alloys in 9mm and have no issues. I am at a loss why I cannot do that.

I feel like I am in the SPIN ZONE !

[Iron Mike Golf]

Same powder charge for both alloys? If so, then maybe your 50/50 alloy isn't strong enough. It's not about bumping to obturate, because the harder alloy is not leading. Also means the .357 looks to be a good fit.

Are you using WW from the same smelt for both alloys? WWs are not created equal.

Are you air cooling your 50-50 boolits? If so, maybe try water dropping them, age them a week, and repeat the load.

[dualsport]

Lotta difference in pressure for 9mm/45acp. The 9mm is more challenging. I would see if a .359 will chamber easily, might make a difference. Also, if need be you could quench your 50-50 boolits and harden them right up. I fought the 9mm, have mostly gone over to bulk ammo since it's so cheap and spend my time on other cast projects. I do mess with a Ruger BH convertible 9mm with boolits. If you have a lot of pure lead maybe sell/trade some for some linotype. I feel your pain, I had to move on. The 9mm was like a white whale I couldn't let it go.

[williamwaco]

Lotta difference in pressure for 9mm/45acp. The 9mm is more challenging. I would see if a .359 will chamber easily, might make a difference. Also, if need be you could quench your 50-50 boolits and harden them right up. I fought the 9mm, have mostly gone over to bulk ammo since it's so cheap and spend my time on other cast projects. I do mess with a Ruger BH convertible 9mm with boolits. If you have a lot of pure lead maybe sell/trade some for some linotype. I feel your pain, I had to move on. The 9mm was like a white whale I couldn't let it go.

If your bore slugs .357, It is quite likely your .358 bullets are too small.

It has always been my experience that best results are found with a bullet .002 over bore size.

I have ZERO experience with Blue Dot and am having a hard time finding any loading data for it.

In fact, the only load I can find comes from the Lee manual. It lists 8.2 grains of Blue dot with a 125 grain lead bullet at 29,000 PSI. Most of his never exceeds loads rank about 33,000 PSI with a few at 35,000. The industry standard pressure maximum is about 34,000.

This NOT a recommendation, just reporting an observation. I suspect you powder charge is too low.

The first thing I would do is pull a couple of loaded bullets and mike them. You might be surprised to find that they are no longer .358. They can be swaged down in the seating process. Since the softer bullets are leading and the harder are not, this is even more likely.

If that doesn't disclose a problem, the next thing I would do is verify my loading data and attempt to find a load closer to "full power". "Full Power" does not mean MAX.

.

[milprileb]

At this point in the marathon, a .359 sizing die is not out of the question, it can keep my .356,357,and 358 dies company

That would mean a .359 M die so I don't know if thats even made .

Forgot to say: I water quench all my 9mm bullets so that 50 50 alloy is as hard as its going to get.

Short of chasing .359 dies and M Die: Is everyone certain thats the last option or does anyone think I ought to go to Carnuba Red lube for the 50 50 alloy bullets or does anyone think a lesser charge of BD will help ? Could the BAC be failing me and Carnuba Red save me ?

At the end of the rope here. Got to go see if my old is dropping bullets large enough to size to .359. I doubt that

[geargnasher]

Nowhere did I see an actual measurement of the boolits themselves, particularly measurement of a seated, crimped, and PULLED boolit.

Keep in mind the softer alloy (more lead percentage) the smaller the boolits will cast. If your barrel is slugging .357", you'll need a .358" boolit at least after it comes back out of the case.

Lube won't prevent leading here, so quit thinking about that.

So, you need to do four things:

1. Measure a boolit that you've sized and lubed.
2. Measure a boolit that's been seated, crimped and pulled back out again.
3. Measure the inside diameter of an expanded, bellmouthed case, at a point about 3/16" back from the case mouth.
4. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
Gear

[milprileb]

Gear: I am sizing each case with a .358 M Die. The bullets are sized .358 (I measured them) so do you think there is something happening with 50 50 bullets vs WW bullets that is causing leading when lube, powder charge, seating depth all remain constant ? Some variable at play that I can fix ? I am so frustrated that its possible I am over looking something. Any ideas?

Could Carnuba Red substituted for BAC be the answer for 50 50 alloy bullets ? I am stretching here to find any port in the storm !

[geargnasher]

Your gun does not care what you poke in the cases, or what size it is, it cares what the measurement of the inside of the case ACTUALLY is after you do so. That is what affects the boolit size after seating. Also, just because you run your boolits through a die marked .358" doesn't mean that that's what they actually are, either, that's why I needed the clarification on that, so thanks for clearing that up. Please pull a boolit and measure it.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Thoughts: Could this load be too hot or is it not hot enough to "Bump" bullets and could either of these reason be the cause for 50 50 alloy bullet to lead barrel?

Alternate question: Would 50 50 alloy be okay for 45 acp ? If so that would ease the drain on my WW supply of metal.

It's not about "bumping" as mentioned, it's about Blue Dot being the wrong powder for the softer 50/50 alloy. That is a healthy load for that soft an alloy. Try 4 gr of Bullseye.

If you WQ your 50/50 cast bullets they will be fine for general 9mm and 45 ACP loads with regular powders such as Bullesy and Unique at nominal velocities. If you want to push to +P levels with Bluedot then use the 80/20 alloy.

Nothing wrong with the fit or components other than a screaming load with too soft an alloy.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

I don't understand how one could say "there's nothing wrong with the fit" when we don't yet know what size the boolit is when it's going into the barrel. I do agree to a certain extent that the load isn't balanced with that powder, but I shoot 16:1 at 1350 fps in .44 Magnum using 2400 all day long with no leading and excellent accuracy at 100 yards. I also shoot AC50/50 WW/Roof lead with a pinch of tin interchaneably with the 16:1 to save tin with the same loads. Fit, as always, is STILL King.

Gear

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

if it were me i would back off on the powder just a touch , unless you need the speed for some reason 1/10s of a gr lighter and you might just find a load that gets the same point of aim and lets you use the alloy you want , and costs less i might drop 30% from max and work back up

a little less powder isn't much felt , and doesn't affect point of impact at 10-20 yards

[milprileb]

No body thinks its a lube issue than? I guess not if the harder bullets 80% WW to 20% PB don't lead.

Gear: Roger , will pull bullet and come back to you.

Larry: the reason I am at Blue Dot is because I was getting leading with 4.0 BE and then tried minimum loads of WW 231. THat was a year ago and the consensus on the boards was I needed a M die at .358 and go to a slower powder and Blue Dot was recommended. So I did all of that but here I am now and I will gladly cut any powder charge if that cuts leading issues. I am not hung up on any thing at this point. I got BE, WW 231, Unique, all on the shelf.

Guys, pls stay with me here, I am really drowning

[rond]

I have had really good results with Titegroup powder in 9mm, 3.6-4.0 gr. makes a lot of ammo per pound.

[milprileb]

Tite Group is burn rate 14, Bullseye is 13.

I got tons of leading grief with BE so I will decline on Tite Group.
Both I think are fast powders and contribute to issues I am suffering
with. Slower powders seem to lessen the risk of leading but obviously,
I got a drama with Blue dot and 50 50 alloy. BD is pretty slow.

[milprileb]

Gear,

Pulled 3 bullets at random off loaded box of ammo and they measured:
.3585
.3585
.3580

I guess from the above, I need to drop charge of BD down for 50 50 Alloy or do
I need to get a .359 "M" die expander ?

[geargnasher]

It does not appear that the boolits are getting swaged by the cases. Since you know 80/20 works, why not simply water quench the 50-50 to make it tougher?

Gear

[milprileb]

Gear, all my bullets are water quenched. The 50 50 is water quenched. Drop powder load now , change lubes , other powder ?

[geargnasher]

Lube quality isn't the problem.

Now that we've determined that you're shooting .358" minimum boolits into a .357" barrel, it's time to look at powder selection and charge weight. Also, remove the barrel from the gun and take a really close look at the throat to see if there's a step in there (a second step, past the big step at the end of the chamber) that could be shaving lead.

If you have leading, you have either a rough spot or a gas leak, so use logic to rationalize your pressure curve, peak pressure, alloy hardness, and barrel/throat dimensions to ensure tht the boolit corks the bore from case to muzzle.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

milprileb

No body thinks its a lube issue than? I guess not if the harder bullets 80% WW to 20% PB don't lead.

With the 50/50 being WQ'd and no leading with the 80/20 alloy it's not the lube. It's the powder with that alloy.

Gear: Roger , will pull bullet and come back to you.

As I already mentioned the .358+ pulled bullets indicates they are still large enough. Some think "fit is king" but I disagree. Fit is definately important in so far as the bullet is at least groove diameter in firearms that will never know the difference. You're pistol bore slugs at .357 so the .358+ bullets are fine. If they weren't you'd get leading with both alloys.

Larry: the reason I am at Blue Dot is because I was getting leading with 4.0 BE and then tried minimum loads of WW 231. THat was a year ago and the consensus on the boards was I needed a M die at .358 and go to a slower powder and Blue Dot was recommended.

Science, or the truth of what is happening, should never be based on "concensus". I'll probably catch flak for that but consesus is merely opinion. My own opinions have been known to be wrong which is why I try to deal in science because with science I continually have proven my own opinion and others opinions to be incorrect. Point of example is; perhaps the lube is not working with that softer alloy as I stated in opinion above. My opinion is based on years of experience with the 9 mm and cast bullets but what I do and what you do and use can easily be different without either of us realising it.

Were you using that lube a year ago with the 4 gr load of Bullseye? If so then a change of lube may be indeed needed. A simple switch to Javelina with the 4 gr Bullseye load would give that answer. I use both and have not had any leading over the many years with numerous 9 mms both handgun and subgun.

Larry Gibson

[NuJudge]

What is your cylinder throat diameter? If it is smaller than your groove diameter, you will likely have a Leading problem no matter what you try. I also have trouble with Lead .357 plain base bullets in Ruger revolvers, as there is a tight spot in the barrel at the rear where the barrel is threaded, and I get Leading forward of there.

[SlowSmokeN]

I was having leading with my 9mm until I got the fit right. I am using range lead, the Lee 358-125 air cooled, Recluse lube and 4g Unique.

From my personal experience when I got the fit right all problems went away.

[soldierbilly1]

OP:
Is your gun barrel brandy new?
billy boy
any other 9's laying around you can run your bullets through?
when you checked the diameter of the pulled bullet, did you use a micrometer?
When I used the Lee TC 356 120 I found that the lube groove did not carry enough lube, I had to go with the Lyman 356 120 gr ... the two lube grooves really helped. I got it to work for both of my 9's. BTW, the Lee now works with my two 9's using NRA 50/50. No problems with Titegroup. Go figure.
My bore was at about 0.355 and I size to 0.357. Too, I use a Lyman MDie and a Lee taper crimp. Please make sure your crimp is light, this is important. I use WW and sometimes 50/50 WW and range scrap!
good luck.
billy boy

[milprileb]

The barrel has one step and is a 1911 barrel in a PT 1911 Taurus.. Its not a revolver I am shooting.

Gear: for near term, I will drop the powder charge and re test with 50 50 alloy.

Larry: As soon as Javelina lube comes it, will try 4.0 BE and Javelina.

I am now in a "controlled spin" . For certain you gents have narrowed down the list of Gremlins haunting this 9mm pistol and 50 50 alloy.

[MtGun44]

Have you tried stopping the water dropping? I'd give that a try.

Bill

[whisler]

Are both boolits the same size after sizing? Could you be seeing some springback on the harder alloy that is making it actually larger than .358? Might be good to check both.

[milprileb]

MTGUN 44: if the harder alloy bullets , water quenched don't lead and softer alloy bullets water quenched do lead. Why would air cool make a difference on the softer alloy? You got me puzzled on the science of that.

Billy Boy: the pistol has 8000 rds fired through it : all cast. I measured with a micrometer.
I am used to larger grease lube grooves than Lee puts on their mold design and was worried there might not be enough lube held in Lee shallow grooves but .... the harder alloy bullets don't lead and the softer bullets do lead: all these bullets lubed with BAC , sized same , water quenched and out of the same Lee 120 TC mold. So...I guess I could run some 50 50 alloy bullets lubed with BAC and then Lee ALox tumble lube them for extra coating and try that and see what happens. Larry and Gear don't think Lube is my issue though and they got a lot of experience.

I ain't ruling anything out now... I just loaded 3.6 gr of Unique and these bullets to test them out but I still got to get some Javalina like Larry said and test with that.

[canyon-ghost]

Pushing a harder alloy too fast might get you the "cheese grater" effect on the boolits. In other words, too fast and the rifling slices the sides of the bullet, producing leading.

Just a thought that was presented to me by a more experienced reloader.

[milprileb]

Canyon Ghost: Ya lost me brother ! The hard alloy with 5.7 Blue dot is not leading, the softer
alloy with 5.7 BD is leading. Anyway, I have gone over to Unique, a mild load and will see what happens with the 50 50 lead to WW softer alloy.

[geargnasher]

Canyon-Ghost was explaining the occasional effect of lead being peeled or scraped from the boolit by the lands when they engrave rather than simply displacing the lead into the bands. Any lead scraped off of the boolit will get smeared on to the barrel by heat and pressure. Harder boolits tend to shred rather than compress sometimes, and a lot of that depends on the particular barrel and finish.

Bill was probably thinking something similar when he recommended the softer alloy, too. Sometimes the softer lead will conform a bit easier to the barrel, flex more when it needs to, and make a tighter GAS SEAL than a hard boolit will. Again, if you have leading, you have a rough spot or a gas leak. LOTS of things can cause gas leaks, like an unbalanced combination of alloy, hardness, powder burn rate, and powder charge, that load balance thing is what Larry Gibson was explaining in his post above, and why he was suggesting other powders.

Gear

[MikeS]

With all the talk about lube grooves and their size, when you shoot the loads, do you get a lube star on the end of the barrel? If you're running out of lube, you won't get a lube star on the end of the barrel, so if you are getting a lube star after shooting several rounds thru the gun, then you have enough lube, with that boolit, be it a Lee or Lyman. I don't have any experience loading 9mm, so I'm going on general loading info with other cartridges.

I will soon have experience loading 9mm, as I just got a gun that shoots 9mm, and I'm starting out with the Lee 105gr SWC that's supposed to be for 38/357, but I've seen many forum members have had good luck using it in 9mm.

[MtGun44]

I never water drop and never get leading. I firmly believe that most folks are WAY too
fixated on making boolits hard. The "harder is better" baloney is still rampant.

Try softer until you prove that your load, in your gun, is worse with softer. IME, soft
(even 8 BHN) in even magnum loads is accurate and does not lead, with no GC.

Bill