.40 cal Mold Recommendations

[Dragoon 45]

I recently purchased a Rolling Block in .40-65 Ron Long with a very tight chamber and Badger 30" barrel. It has a .408 bore, but very little leed according to the chamber casts. I really like the Lyman Snover bullet, but can't set it out in the case to get the powder charge I desire. I want to keep the velocity around 1200 fps if possible and can't get enough powder in the case when I use the Snover; and the accuracy is just not that good.

I am looking for a bore rider with probably the first two driving bands being tapered and big lube grooves to carry plenty of lube. I have looked at Brooks molds, BACO molds, and some other brands. Talking to local shooters, every one has a different recommendation. I am looking for recommendations to see what bullet is the most recommended.

Thank You.

[Don McDowell]

1200 with any 400 gr bullet in the 40-65 is really stretching the limit.
We shoot 58 grs of 3f express behind the snover in my wifes roller and it shoots very accurate.
I know a couple of 40-65's that are using the snover and kik 2f with some pretty decent results.
There are a lot of bullets that will work in that cartridge but the snover is the one they all compare themselves to.

[Boz330]

I use a Brooks 400gr in mine. There is only .250" in the case and I can get 70gr of 2F Swiss in the case and this seems to be the load my Hi-wall likes. Velocity according to my Chrono is 1275fps. The front 2 bands slightly engrave when chambered.
I just started experimenting with KIK and I got 70gr of that in 1.5 F in the case but it is absolutely full. Haven't shot any of these yet though. The Brooks mold throws a very consistent weight boolit. I would say just by looking at it that it is a Snover with the forward bands reduced but I don't have a Snover to compare it to. My barrel is also a Badger chambered with the PTS reamer.

Bob

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Lyman make a tapered design "Mathews" bore rider of about 395gn. It sits just two rings into the case and allows a full 68gns of Swiss in the case.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/My_cast_45.jpg

I shot this 10 shot group at 100yds with a Pedersoli Sharps!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/ericsrifletarget2.jpg

[kokomokid]

I use a snover and 58gr 1.5 swiss in RP brass or 63gr in WW and find it good to the ram line. Had off and on sucess with bore riders even when pushing patches between rounds. I had to go to 15/1 alloy and 70gr plus on money bullet and I still shoot the snover.

[Don McDowell]

Boz that 1.5 KIK gets along great with a bit of compression, but when you get to much it starts stringing verticle and the velocity will actually go down.

[Dragoon 45]

In my Highwall I load 60 grns Cartridge in Starline fireformed cases with the Snover set out with two driving bands and one lube groove showing. According to my Chrono MV is 1220 fps and I got 7/10 rams this past sunday with this load. But this load will not chamber in my new Roller.

Curiously, the chamber casts show a bottleneck in the chamber. Everything I can find says the .40-65 is a straight tapered case with no actual bottleneck. I will try to make a chamber diagram off the casts to show what I mean. The case walls evenly taper to about 1/2 the length and then the case diameter remands the same from there to the case mouth. I thought I had screwed up the casting, so I went and had a gunsmith do a cast of the chamber and he got the same results I did.

From what I can figure out, this rifle is going to need probably a .408 bullet with tapered front driving bands.


1200 with any 400 gr bullet in the 40-65 is really stretching the limit.
We shoot 58 grs of 3f express behind the snover in my wifes roller and it shoots very accurate.
I know a couple of 40-65's that are using the snover and kik 2f with some pretty decent results.
There are a lot of bullets that will work in that cartridge but the snover is the one they all compare themselves to.

[Don McDowell]

You might try sizing the snover to 408 and seating it deeper in the case.
Cartridge always turns in good accuracy, but we never saw velocity above about 1150 in this rifle, but we only ran about 58 grs.

[SharpsShooter]

The Ron Long chamber is royal PITA:( I have a beautiful Shiloh 74 that was chambered as such.

It requires special dies, mine required inside neck turning to .410" of fire formed cases and a boolit diameter of .408" and not a bit bigger. I have a very nice RCBS 40-400-CSA that is useless in the Ron Long chambering.

In all fairness,once you get all the kinks worked out, it will shoot. I ended up going with a Lyman 408169 260gr bullet, 60gr of Goex Cartridge a .060 vegetable wad and I light it off with a Federal #150. Initial results look very promising with typical groups running an inch to an inch and a quarter at 100 yards. I do not shoot silly-wet nor 1000 yard competition, so I figure that 260gr boolit is sufficient for the spindly Whitetails and such.


Just my 2 cents


SS

[kokomokid]

True Ron Long chamber has a bottle neck of sorts aprox .500 long. Mine is a tight fit for a 431 neck and likes a .410 snover so I turn necks down a little.

[Good Cheer]

Would you be interested in these?
PM if you would like.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/ShebaMould.jpg

[Boz330]

Boz that 1.5 KIK gets along great with a bit of compression, but when you get to much it starts stringing verticle and the velocity will actually go down.

Thanks Don, I'll keep that in mind. Sure would be nice to have an alternative to Swiss at the current prices.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Boz you get to shooting that KIK and find a load with it, you won't be giving Swiss anything more than a passing thought.
This past weekend at the Midwest Championship in Alliance a former Swiss shooter was shooting KIK, he over extended his practicing so he ran out of KIK ammo in the middle of the buffalo match. Not to fear he had his good ol Swiss loads... fouled out in a matter of shots and never did catch up the score due to the misses.

[Boz330]

Sounds good to me. I stocked up on everything within days of the last presidential election but I probably have enough Swiss to get through this season. It was only $15 a pound then though. The KIK I got was $2 a pound cheaper than that. I fear hat when the word gets out that KIK will get more expensive as well.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Oh I think except for transportation charges, the price of KIK will be fairly stable for the next year or so. The folks at Western have a good product and they know it, and they are after market share.

[Dragoon 45]

What weights are these? The spitzer looks interesting.


Would you be interested in these?
PM if you would like.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/ShebaMould.jpg

[Good Cheer]

From left to right those are the NEI .408-370 (#211A) and .408-380 (#212E). Very nicely recut from .257 by Joel at NEI. NEI has some pretty nice .40's. Joel recently recut a four cavity for me too with great results, fitting .41 cherries in .38 caliber holes (not as easy as it sounds due to lube grooves). Small caliber NEI blocks are pure gold for recut to what you need.

The following measurements are with dial calipers, straight lead and the blocks hot enough to fill out:

#211A
All Rings = 0.409"- 0.410"

#212E
Base = 0.410"-0.411"
Next = 0.409"
Next = 0.409"
Next = 0.406"-0.407"
Front Band = 0.406"-0.407"
Bore Riding = 0.396"

[Dragoon 45]

I think I need something smaller on the front driving bands. From what I can tell from the chamber casts, I will need something around .400 to .402 on at least the front driving band and maybe on the second.

I have heard good things about Brooks moulds, and from email correspondence they may be able to make what I think I need. I really like the profile of the Snover bullet and would like to stay with something as close as I can to it.


From left to right those are the NEI .408-370 (#211A) and .408-380 (#212E). Very nicely recut from .257 by Joel at NEI. NEI has some pretty nice .40's. Joel recently recut a four cavity for me too with great results, fitting .41 cherries in .38 caliber holes (not as easy as it sounds due to lube grooves). Small caliber NEI blocks are pure gold for recut to what you need.

The following measurements are with dial calipers, straight lead and the blocks hot enough to fill out:

#211A
All Rings = 0.409"- 0.410"

#212E
Base = 0.410"-0.411"
Next = 0.409"
Next = 0.409"
Next = 0.406"-0.407"
Front Band = 0.406"-0.407"
Bore Riding = 0.396"

[Good Cheer]

The #211A is fine for my muzzleloading rifle but the #212E is going to have to be modified to work.

[Hiwall55]

I have a paul jones spitzer with the front 2 driving bands at .400 that is very accurate in all of our 40/65 guns . you can seat it out with the .408 driving band just out of the case and get get 1200 fps easily with several powders he will make any dimension you want. it weighs 415 grains at 20:1,

[Dragoon 45]

Thank You. I will look at that.


I have a paul jones spitzer with the front 2 driving bands at .400 that is very accurate in all of our 40/65 guns . you can seat it out with the .408 driving band just out of the case and get get 1200 fps easily with several powders he will make any dimension you want. it weighs 415 grains at 20:1,

[2Tite]

I just put one of these BACO bullet molds up for sale. The front two bands are bore size (.400) and the driving bands cast at .409. It's on the swap/sell at a good price.

[hiwall]

I have a Browning in 40-65 win. The lyman snover mold had too little lube, the fouling would cake about 3 inches from the muzzle. Are you having the same problem with the snover molds. If not what brand of mold.

[kokomokid]

hiwall, I agree that the snover is short on lube but outshoots everything else I have. The Gunn nose and small grease grooves almost look like an early design for the money bullet. I gave up on the blow tube as we shoot a lot of matches at 100 deg plus and low humidity. With a 32" bbl I quickly fouled out with the style of blow tubing that I used.

[Hiwall55]

Another mold to look at that comes up for sale used is the saeco 400,in my guns it shoots better than the snover and holds twice the lube.my buddy shoots mine with smokeless and it performs well with it too

[drcook]

here is a link to a thread about the Ron Long chamber / brass. It is not a "bottleneck cartridge" anymore than a 40-82 Crossno is a bottleneck cartridge, both started life as 40-65 cartridges and had length added for a particular reason. It will have the constant diameter at the web, taper down to the neck, and then the neck of course. If you are calling that a "bottleneck" it is incorrect. If you have a chamber that is a true bottleneck, then you have something different entirely. I seem to remember that the Ron Long chamber was derived so that 40-65 brass could be formed and you didn't have to trim all the excess off.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131612

this one has pics further down the page of true bottleneck cartridges

http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/idpics.htm

[kokomokid]

Me bad, I did say that my Ron Long imitation .40 chamber had a (bottle) neck of SORTS. Should say that it has a slight neck of sorts that is good for neck sizing and expanding for an exact neck tension where I have about .500" bullet in the case. I guess maybe Ron wanted this neck for the same reason?

[drcook]

Here is more confirmation about what I had remembered, ie: that the Ron Long chamber was so you didn't have to trim brass that was formed from 45-70 brass. It stayed long

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1635673&postcount=2

a 40-82 Crossno has .300 added to the neck of a 40-65

dc

[41wyom]

In my C. Sharps .40-70 SS my best results have been with a Paul Jones "money" bullet (very similar to a snover nose) with the front two bands smaller (don't have the dimension memorized) than the rest which are 0.410". This lets the bullet set out farther (touching the lands) and then allows more powder capacity. Weighs 420-grains and MV is 1323 using 68.0 Swiss 1 1/2.

Tom