.54 flintlock trade gun

[Sven]

I looked at a .54 cal trade gun a local person has for sale. All the parts came out of Track of the Wolf. Queen Anne lock with a Green River rifled barrel. Walnut stock that's a bit rough and crude. (Wish I would have taken a pic.) It and the barrel are finished in linseed oil-- it is a trade gun after all. Single trigger. The parts alone run almost $600, which is what he is asking for it, then he paid the guy who made it.

Am I nuts to even concider this rifle? I have a Lyman Great Plains percussion .54 and would like to move to a flinter for hunting and just shooting. The local rendezvous is set up as a 1700's fur trading post and this gun would probably fit well there, too. It has both front and rear sights and they really seem to work well. I know the barrel would shoot well.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well you could buy the parts and make whatever style you want , have done 3 flinters in early lancaster style , I like track of the wolf , though I have bought parts and kits from both of the tvm sites , how crude is the stock? something you can redo yourself ? or is it fine for the purpose at hand. Those flinters are a lot of fun

[waksupi]

The Queen Anne locks are good, although not the right one for a trade rifle. I wouldn't let that bother me. The barrel is also good, so you only have cosmetics to worry about. For the price of the parts, I would buy it, and make it into a gun. Better yet, buy it, send it to me, and I will make it into a gun for a reasonable fee.

[Sven]

The maker did a fairly good job of inletting, but it seems like he took quite a bit of wood off the stock. Wish he would have left more for me to work with, especially the wrist area. For a hunting rifle, it should work quite well, and give me a real good taste of using a flinter. Might have to call him back and make an offer.

The trigger feels like it must be close to 10#, though it breaks clean. Wonder if it can be lightened to 5 or 6#???

[waksupi]

The maker did a fairly good job of inletting, but it seems like he took quite a bit of wood off the stock. Wish he would have left more for me to work with, especially the wrist area. For a hunting rifle, it should work quite well, and give me a real good taste of using a flinter. Might have to call him back and make an offer.

The trigger feels like it must be close to 10#, though it breaks clean. Wonder if it can be lightened to 5 or 6#???

With that lock, you should be able to easily take it to 4# or so. A lot depends on if the guy knew how to hang a trigger correctly.
Something to look at on those locks. Take it apart, and use a strong magnifying glass, and examine the engagement surfaces between the tumbler and the sear. Look in particular at the tumbler. I usually find there is some rough casting surface left there, that makes a big difference in the trigger feel.
I use a small diamond stick to smooth the area, being sure to not change the angle. Also check the nose of the sear engagement area for smoothness. Use a backer, and fine emery to mirror polish the surfaces. They are tiny, be careful, keep them flat, and square.
Don't even THINK of using a Dremel tool!
Doing the above should take care of any serious lock related trigger pull issues.
If they guy hung the trigger incorrectly, it can be fairly easily fixed, although it is much easier shown than told.

[405]

That +/- 600 seems pretty good and you should be able to turn it into a first rate FL. Like waksupi said, the trigger/lock stuff is pretty simple. With the lock removed you can view the movement of the trigger bar. While very simple in design it is much easier to study first hand. It operates on a combination of basic leverage and inertia principles.

[Sven]

Well, I went ahead and bought it. Gotta find some FFFFg so I can shoot it (have a stash of FFg). Here's some pics. Kinda hard to get 58" worth of gun in one pic!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/wecanoe/firearms/flintlock3.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/wecanoe/firearms/flintlock2.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/wecanoe/firearms/flintlock1.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/wecanoe/firearms/flintlock4.jpg

[odfairfaxsub]

wow what a nice classic looking gun

[405]

Thanks for posting pics! Yes, there is a lot of potential there. Since it is a single x single stage trigger it is the simplest of all. Do what waksupi said with the sear surfaces- use care and take minimal amount off to just polish the contact surfaces. If that high poundage trigger pull is still there you could move the trigger assembly fore or aft to get better leverage on the contact bar of the lock mechanism. You may or may not want or need to do that though. This simple design is all about smooth surfaces (minimum friction) and leverage- not intertia as in a set trigger design.

Looks like you have plenty of wood to work with so you can re-finish as you like. You can easily re-finish the metal also- some of the metal parts like the butt plate will be left on during the stock re-do and surface filing... gives a much better wood to metal fit that way. You could even add a metal nose cap if desired. If you need to take the cross-pinned metal parts off the stock.... use great care and the right size and type of punch to drive them out.

[Sven]

It will be interesting to see what I can do with the trigger.

Unmounting the barrel was one concern of mine. I'm used to the hooked breach and pair of barrel keys on my Lyman Great Plains Rifle.

Thanks for all the tips!

[Bullet Caster]

Nice looking flinter. Of course it ain't as purty as my Pedersoli, but it is a trade gun. Lol.

Keep us posted on what you do to it. BC

[waksupi]

You are lucky there was so much wood left. There are a lot of possibilities there. Too bad he didn't bend the tang down properly, but if you want to reshape it, it can be tig welded and re-drilled if you would want to. You can make that into a fine rifle with some work. Let me know if you want a price quote! :bigsmyl2:

[Lead Fred]

The barrel is pinned in, not designed to be removed.
When I built mine, I glass bedded the barrel into the stock, then pinned it.

Dont try and take it apart.

[405]

The two parts of that rifle that look like "trade gun" (or maybe a little cheezy) are the trigger guard and the lack of a metal nose cap. Both are inexpensive parts available from many suppliers like Track. Updrading/adding those would upgrade that rifle.

If you are going to do any kind of reasonable re-finish, all the metal parts will have to come off and that includes the barrel and ram rod pipes. I doubt anything was glued in. To remove the cross pins- use (or make) a good straight shank flat faced punch of the right size (same diameter as the pins). Take a close look at both sides of the stock and see which way appears to be the easiest that they would push out. With care and light taps move the pins out of the stock by about a 1/4". Get ahold of the exposed 1/4" with a good set of plier (like lineman's pliers) and pull straight out with maybe even a little twist and take a re-bite if needed. They should come out fairly easily.

After completing whatever and ready to re-assemble, dress (round off a little) the leading tip of the pins so they will enter the wood and "find" their way through to the other side.

As has been posted the tang needs to be bent down to match the natural curve of what the stock should have been. That is easy and there is plenty of wood there to allow that bend and deeper inlet. Once thats done, file the top surface contour of the stock with the barrel/tang in place so that surface is true and perfectly matched. All these steps are really straight forward and not difficult, just take your time.

[waksupi]

The barrels ARE designed to be removed, just not very often. I like to take mine apart every five years or so, to check for rust, and put a new heavy coat of paste wax on the bottom surface.
Pins are usually put in from the right side, and should be pushed out from the left.
The butt plate looks like it was just placed on top of the wood, and not inlet. They are a bitch to take off, if put in with the proper square nails. Best thing to do with those, is drill them out, or grind them out, sacrifice and replace butt plate if necessary.
If you can take out the lock, and give me a good picture of the inside of the inlet, I MAY be able to tell you how to re-hang that trigger. It definitely was not done right.

[Sven]

Butt plate is definitely "trade gun", too.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/wecanoe/firearms/flintlock5.jpg

Thanks for the suggestions on how to fix this potentially fine weapon up. Unfortunately I won't have time to work on it for a while. I have a "wife" project to finish up first! I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. Anyone have a suggestion for a good book on building flintlocks? I have a Track of the Wolf catalog and they have a whole library to choose from!

[waksupi]

I like "the Gunsmith of Grenville County". I think it is back in print, may have to go through Muzzleloader Magazine to get it.

[Alan]

It will shoot just fine priming w/ 2Fg.

[Hang Fire]

Talk about lack of a nose cap? Early rocklock trade guns as a rule did not have a NC and the lack of one is traditional. But have a question, is that a full octagon barrel?

My attempt at a fusil de chasse several years ago, L&R lock, .62 Getz 46 inch swamped smoothbore barrel and no NC, not a trade gun per se, but close enough. Right at 6.5 pounds, it is my favorite rocklock bar none, mounts to the shoulder on target like a dream, with shot or ball, bunnies to moose, will get'ter done.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/P1010034.JPG

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Fusildechasse2.jpg

[waksupi]

Right, I wouldn't put a cap on a trade rifle. Definitely out of place.
I built 26 trade guns last year, with not a single nose cap, or any shown in my reference books.

[405]

Exactly. If Sven wants to leave it as a "trade gun" then all the parts and original finish, form and function are all there- including the 10 pound gritty trigger. So, for zero effort, time or appreciation- just shoot as is.

But, by investing in a handful of relatively inexpensive parts plus a little learning experience labor, he could end up with a pretty nice rifle of a more sophisticated form. Owner's choice.

[StrawHat]

Well, I went ahead and bought it. Gotta find some FFFFg so I can shoot it (have a stash of FFg)...

Have you treid the ffG? Most locks, if they spark well, will ignite it. If not you have two options. Work on the lock, or grind the ffG down to what works. Not hard to do and easier than using up a pound of ffffG.

[Sven]

For the time being, it will stay a trade rifle. The stock is nicely inlet so will leave that alone, but will do some minor shaping, major sanding and refinish with boiled inseed oil. I expect any newly exposed wood will match up OK. Eventually I want to brown the barrel (and lock?). Unless there's another finish that would work on a trade gun. I don't care for the linseed oil on the barrel that it wears right now. We'll see how the but plate feels when I shoot it. The large trigger guard should work out well hunting the December muzzleloader season here in northern MN. The trigger is not gritty at all, just heavy and it sounds like that is easily (more or less) fixed.

Now, about grinding down FF closer to 4F. How is that accomplished? It'd be nice to have a little bit on hand in case I have poor luck priming with 2F. I suppose I could prime it without a charge in the barrel and see how well it ignites before actually loading the barrel. Didn't think of that until just now. I'll have another week of 12 hour shifts before getting any time off. Might just have to make a quick run tot he range right after work -- it is staying light enough to shoot until past 8:30 -- like until right now.

I sure appreciate all the comments!

[Boerrancher]

I have used 2F in the pan before on my flinter, and it does work. 3F works better, and 4F is the best because it gives the fastest lock time. If you want to munch up some 2F and turn it into 4F, place a pile of it in a smooth sided, and bottomed ceramic bowl, and use a large wooden dowel with a flat to slightly rounded end to crush it up. Problem solved, unless you want to get real fancy and get a mortar and pestle. Those work the best and run about 10 bucks at a health food store, or less off the internet.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DIRT Farmer]

There are several advantages to using ffffg for priming. faster flash time, a weak spark from a dull fliunt will be more likely to fire the piece, the powder will be glazed as opposed to crushing it and breaking the glaze up, glazed powder is a real advantage in off conditions and more consistant ignition time.

A pound of ffffg is only about 1800 shots, why not enjoy the gun.

[Sven]

I'm sure I'll end up buying a pound of 4F -- but it's going to be a while before I get over to Superior, WI. No one it town carries it, and I'm not quite ready to pay hazmat fees. I called over to Scheel's in Fargo asking about black powder and he said nobody in the whole state of North Dakota sells it -- regulations are too restrictive. He wanted to sell me Pyrodex or 777. I'll wait or grind my own.

[405]

Sven, as I said, owners choice.

For certain, the easiest to do is as you describe. You could leave the metal bright or whatever it is and just let it age. Or use something like B-C Plum Brown (as per directions it works very well- skip the directions and it is so-so). With normal RB/blackpowder loads the recoil won't be much issue so the buttplate won't matter one way or the other. I doubt the 54 has a conical twist (you can check it's twist) and the RB would be standard for ca 1800.

But also consider most "trade guns" were somewhere between 54 and 62 caliber smoothbores. Currently, because 20 ga (+/- 61-62 cal) is a standard smoothbore ga. most standard trade guns, kit guns and parts come standard as 20 ga. Since the "trade gun" was in history just as the name implies, a trade commodity for early settlers and Indians. They were simple and practical because they could shoot both ball and shot. They were made as simply and as cheaply as possible. The thin, flat metal parts and even the very thin ramrod pipes and the lack of some furniture reflect cheap-to-make and more profit on the trade. The 54 caliber rifled barrel does not fit into normal historical perspective for these and would have been abnormal for a true trade gun. Some trade guns, purely to add eye candy appeal to a less sophisticated market, had shiny brass serpentine-shaped side plates. Easy to add to the gun, didn't cost much, but surely caught the eye of the tradee :)