bullet question

[runfiverun]

littlegirl and i went out shooting rockchucks and ground squirells today.
we had a pretty decent shoot and a good time.
we were using swaged 22's.
with a 7/32nd inch hollow point.
federal cases for jaxkets.
cores consisting of approximately 2.0- 2.5 % antimony, and maybe,maybe some tin.
weighing 58grs.
and a canellure

the load was 24.5 grs of aa-2230 in a 20" bbl. velocity should have been in the 3k range.

the thing is we were not getting any expansion on the ground squirells.
even through the shoulders.
they were dead, but...
is the not annealing the cases to blame?
it's the only thing i can think of.

i was also using my 308 with greasers, and it would fling them sideways.
i could also see them ummm get damaged, with the straight cast.

[b52fizzle]

Sounds interesting wonder if this is in fact the case? Could you use that to your advantage to control expansion no anneal partial anneal. Not for every bullet to save wear on dies from what I've read, but just use for particular loads?

[Rangefinder]

Now THAT gives me an interesting idea! One of you guys would have to test the theory because I'm not yet set up all the way for .224 swaging. BUT, runfive--if I'm guessing right, you aren't annealing before dirimming? So what might happen if you did that, then stood the derimmed jackets in a tray of sorts so they'd stay upright, leveled water about 2/3 up the case wall, and torch annealed just the top 1/3 somewhere just above where the ogive would start--just like annealing case mouths on over-worked rifle brass? Kinda sounds like controlled expansion to me.

Anyone wanna experiment a little? I'd LOVE to see some results on this one!

[Grandpas50AE]

If your core is not pure lead, it very well could be that your not getting the core distortion needed to deform/spread the jacket. At the 3K velocity, an un-annealed rimfire case (as thin as it is) should split/fracture and allow the core to disrupt when hitting anything more than cardboard; at least it seemed so when I was swaging/loading these pills for my .223's anyway. I defeated shatter/separation by bonding the cores (pure lead) to the jackets (LR cases) which of course softened the jacket. This worked well for deer, but the smaller game you're talking about sould probably require no annealing of the case and very soft core I would think. Just my thoughts on it.

[runfiverun]

i have a bit of a gap from the nose of the jaxket to the lead core inside it.
the load above is MAXIMUM in a 223 ,might even be above in a bolt gun,but is nice and consistent in my 5.56 ar's.
i have used the anvil's from sr primers to make a little internal point on some of my bullets but man they are a pain to get out of the primer case.
i was hoping that point would initiate expansion as it sit's on the lead,and just pokes out of the case.
maybe i'll have to try annealing the front part of the bullet,i allready do that with some of my cast and i know it works there.

keep the ideas coming.

[MIBULLETS]

I agree with Grandpas50AE, I think it is the harder lead. I've never had a problem with soft lead. They usually make two prarrie dogs out of one, splits them in two pieces.

[GerryM]

The jacket isn't folding back. Brass in it's unanealed state is pretty hard.
Add the velocity and you get penetration, not expansion.
hope this solves the problem

[b52fizzle]

That's why I can't wait to get setup also RangeFinder, my work will most likely be on larger cals but kinda like gravity it applies to all. Would definitely have to try these ideas, everything from no anneal to full anneal using water bath method with varying heights and lead hardness to find the sweet spot of performance you seek. If your equipped to make your own, your equipped for experimentation. By making your own you have the ability to write your own equations, too many variables not to play with. Some seem to even try different brands of casings.

Have heard about using shot to correct slug weight and fillout properly, not sure how well it would hold together but possibility of using more or all shot as a fragmentation type round? IDEAS! IDEAS! IDEAS!

[BT Sniper]

"If your equipped to make your own, your equipped for experimentation."

Well put! Sounds like the words of someone allready hooked in this hobby. When I am not working on customer orders, experimenting with differnet possibilities of swaged bulllets is a lot of fun for me. As I say, anything is possible! When one figures out a bullet is nothing more then a brass or copper jacket with a bit of lead, both easily manipulated with a bit of pressure, the possibilities are endless!

As for expansion on ground squirels... well.... I suppose an annealed jacket and pure soft lead will give most exposive results.

Good shooting,

BT

[Rangefinder]

As for expansion on ground squirels... well.... I suppose an annealed jacket and pure soft lead will give most exposive results.

What I'd considered was along the same lines as fizzle--all shot core. The problem I can see is not getting good fill-out and forming during core seat and point forming--soft shot would be essential in order to compress to a fragmentary yet "solid" core. Put a SR primer anvil (runfiverun--you've got the experience in this one cornered :D ) or ski plug in the nose at point-forming and I'm seeing it as an explosively frangible ballistic tip that would put even Varmint Grenades to shame on something like whistle-pigs. MAN, I've gotta get my swaging station up and running... All this talk without being able to play is killing me!

[Reload3006]

i have made several shot cores it works very well I believe Algunjunkie has a youtube video on doing just that. And they are indeed very explosive when they hit all you will find is scraps of brass left. you dont need a skiplug for a BT but I have used them too.

[runfiverun]

today i made a little jig so i could anneal just the front of the boolit/bullet.
i drilled holes to let the nose of the core seated jaxkets stick out.
and hit them with the torch till they were soft, then point formed.
so everything from the beginning of the ogive forward is now soft.

we'll see, they are in the tumbler polishing up right now and there is some 220 swift brass all primed and ready to go waiting for them.

yesterday evening, i caught a small coyote sneaking up on a ground squirell and snuck up on her and gave her one right through the haunches, from about 75 yds away.
little girl was watching through the binoculars and said she could see the fur fly from the front of the yote.
the thing jumped in the air flipped around in a 270* to the left, and then took off on a dead run straight off a 40' cliff, about 50 yds away.
so we drove down around the hill in the jeep and looked her over, the exit hole was about a half/silver dollar in size but that after@ 30" of penetration.

[runfiverun]

things are looking much better,
after the annealing of just the forward portion.
and comparing the partially annealed to hornady's spsx's in the 223 was showing some differences [as expected]
however a combination of a more pure lead core and a partially annealed bullet will do the job on small rodents and should provide the punch needed for larger animals.
we put about 80 rounds down range tonight with some very good examples collected from both bullet types.
and at ranges from 10' to over 125 yds.
little girl made a very good shot on a chuck with my 220 that i ranged with my milspec springfield scope at about 285 yds,over the hood of the jeep with no rest.
i told her to hold for 300, and she plain head shot it, holding on the neck.

now this is where things start to get interesting.

finding the antimony balance,core bonding, and partial annealing will really produce an excellent bullet that will work like a partition.
i am thinking that with just a little experimentation a bullet capable of going from rodents through yotes and even up to antelope could be made without too much trouble.

is there a way to bond the cores, without fluxing and melting the lead in the case?

[Reload3006]

you could try it I have bonded many cores but I always used soldering flux that you can get from the plumbing section of your local hardware store. Make sure to wash the bonded cores thoroughly before seating and forming as you will rust your dies badly if you dont.

[GerryM]

A soft point bullet may be what your looking for .
Try a shorter jacket and longer lead.

[runfiverun]

an update.
tried some softer cores and the annealed to the ogive jaxkets [i made with the jig] and the small primer anvil insert today.
these are now serious varmint bullets.
in the 9 twist ar these just smoke anything they hit out to 150 yds.
i hit a silhouetted rock chuck at 80 yds and it looked like i hit it with a grenade, literally.
the oldest girl was with us tonight,
and got a very good look at the impact through her scope at 16 power.
i could see it rain chunks through my scope but she described [imbellished i am sure] a rock chuck then no rock chuck.
[i am surprised she didn't put a rainbow affect in there somehow]
any ground squirell we caught out on the rocks could be taken out by just shooting in front of it on the rock and shrapnelling it.
[something i'll do with my cast boolit loads when i get the chance.]

[Grandpas50AE]

runfiverun,
glad to hear you got the desired results. My experience told me that going to the soft core would do the trick. During my early testing years ago with these pills, I discovered that the HP gave me 55 gr. or less bullet that my rifle didn't shoot very well, but going up to 62gr. + made them shoot really well, and gave me a lead nose. With soft lead nose exposed, they really expand well, especially with the softened jacket. The nice thing was that the bonding of the core kept them from disintegrating on larger animals like deer, and those bonded core would penetrate almost entirely through a broadside deer, expand to 1.5 times their original diameter, and loss of bullet mass was almost non-existent.

Great experimentation r5r, enjoy those nice little pills.

[runfiverun]

i thought i could get away with easy.
but like most everything there are steps to follow to make them right.
and the focus has to be on what the boolit is going to be used for.
i think the middle boolit with some bonding could possibly be used for bigger animals and might make a good all around little gun bullet.
i missed a shot on a running coyote last night so didn't get any results to look at there.
but knowing the results on small animals gives me a real good baseline for shooting into test media and then being able to compare those results with what i get in the field.
i should then be able to use those tests for the construction with other boolits/bullets i make.
same old stuff the factory's do.
but they didn't share thier test results with me, so i gotta do my own.

[Grandpas50AE]

I know what you mean. I didn't have anyone to ask 10 years ago when doing mine, so used my experience with other calibers as a reference point. I knew I wanted good penetration, which meant the bullet had to be well constructed - meaning bonded core, and needed to have reasonably good mass for the caliber. So, I went with 65+ gr. to allow for a nice pointed tip and good mass, and the 1-9" twist rate would shoot them well if I didn't go too heavy. What I ended up with was 65 gr. if using 22lr jacket, 69gr. if using a J-4 jacket. My wife took her first deer with the 22lr jacketed bullet, which penetrated the spine from a slight downward angle, and stopped just under the skin on the far shoulder. Retained mass was 58.9 gr. The second deer she took was with the J-4 jacketed bullet through both lungs, bullet went completely through the deer, jellied the lungs but destroyed very little meat. Both deer were one-shot kills.

As always, the bullet should be constructed based on its intended use, I have always been a firm believer in that. Nice job on considering purpose and going from there. Enjoy the experimentation r5r.

[Rangefinder]

hehe--I'm drooling at the thought of getting my swaging set-up in order. This is a fun thread to be following.

[runfiverun]

between this and the lube quest me and ian [gearknasher] are working on, i am shooting about 4 day's a week average. [2 different lubes on going over time and temp swings]
casting at least 1 day and reloading and swaging something about 4 days a week.

it took me 2 day's to clean the garage [casting,lube making,annealing,and sometimes reloading area] which put me behind on other stuff.
i need to move all the bulk loaded ammo to the basement so i can expand the bench in the reloading room.
which is gonna take a day or two.

experimentation is fun.
but when you gotta un bury the die set, push resized and primed brass out of the way, and take the swaging stuff off the press the dies are set to,then swap out powder drops, just to get enough ammo loaded to go shoot 30-50 rounds it get's a bit hectic.
and it's real tempting to grab that shiney, sized, primed, and flaired brass, that's intended for something else, just to speed up what you are doing right now.

that's why i was pretty relieved to get a handle on what was needing to be changed pretty quickly.
now i can get the jackets prepped,the rest of the cores cast up and swaged,and let littlegirl do the core seating and point forming,and reloading.
she shoots most of them anyway :lol: