Pickle bath for annealed cases

[Sasquatch-1]

How long is the citric acid bath good for when using it to clean cases?

Also I have noticed that where the case had been black form the annealing process it now has a coppery color opposed to the brass. Is that natural?

[BT Sniper]

I noticed it starts to delute after time.

The copper color will tumble right off leaving a nice shiny piece of brass left over.

Good shooting

BT

[runfiverun]

the black is zinc leaching out and oxidizing.
it will turn a red/brown color after the citric solution.
this makes a very suspect case.

i make my solution about 5%, and use it till it's black from dirt or doesn't seem to work quickly.
about 3-4 uses seems it's limit.

[Sasquatch-1]

I noticed it starts to delute after time.

The copper color will tumble right off leaving a nice shiny piece of brass left over.

Good shooting

BT

I am using lizard bedding in my tumbler that is a mixture of walnut and sand. I add about three capfulls of casebrite to the mix and tumble for a good 6 to 8 hrs and still have the coppery color. I am not worried about it since THEY are going out the buisness end of the barrel. Just wondering if it can be made to go away.

[zuke]

SS media will take away that discoulouation.

[Crawdaddy]

I started tumbling mine after the lemi shime bath. Man they sure look pretty.

[Lizard333]

SS media will take away that discoulouation.

My preferred method as well. Nothing comes close :)

[Sasquatch-1]

SS media will take away that discoulouation.

I was told by the manufacturer of one of the SS medias that it is too heavy to use in a vibratory cleaner. And after all the money I have spent on swaging equipment his year, I can't tell my wife I need a new tumbler while mine is still working.

[Reload3006]

not saying that my way is the best way ... its just a way that works for me. I get all the cases I intend to use I trim them all to the length I want then I boil them in 1cup vinegar to 4 quarts of water. Then I anneal them completely I usually quench them but its not necessary. then I allow them to thoroughly dry. then I wash them in MEK to make sure i have all the oils off of them I wash my uniformed cores in MEK to get all the oils off of them too. Set up my loading trays and insert the cores in my cleaned cases and seat lubing only the outside of the case. then I point form. after I have all my bullets made I then tumble them just like I would my brass for reloading they come out clean and shinny

[Sasquatch-1]

not saying that my way is the best way ... its just a way that works for me. I get all the cases I intend to use I trim them all to the length I want then I boil them in 1cup vinegar to 4 quarts of water. Then I anneal them completely I usually quench them but its not necessary. then I allow them to thoroughly dry. then I wash them in MEK to make sure i have all the oils off of them I wash my uniformed cores in MEK to get all the oils off of them too. Set up my loading trays and insert the cores in my cleaned cases and seat lubing only the outside of the case. then I point form. after I have all my bullets made I then tumble them just like I would my brass for reloading they come out clean and shinny

Currently I am still using the torch and doing a case at a time. I am getting the black mark where the torch flame toaches the case. After pickling the brass in the crock pot with citric acid I get the coppery color where the black was. The last batch I did came out better but could still see a toach of the coppery color.

MEK?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I assume you read the "Annealing Jackets" sticky ?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103824
My post is #2
after the cases/jackets are annealed in the woodstove,
they will have some small black spots of carbon or oxide or whatever ?
the Hot citric acid bath removes them and there are no pinkish or copperish
colored spots underneath. I wonder if you are getting them Hot enough to
fully anneal them ? Did you get them totally glowing red ?
Jon

PS. to the original question. I don't save the citric solution, I usually do several batches of brass when I get setup for a Hot citric acid bath and process about 2k pieces of brass. The solution starts to get less effective and needing more time to clean a batch, and the sollution turns a bluish hue.

[Reload3006]

Methyl Ethyl Keytone. a solvent that gets all the oils off of the brass so I ensure good adhesion of the lead to the brass.

[Sasquatch-1]

I assume you read the "Annealing Jackets" sticky ?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103824
My post is #2
after the cases/jackets are annealed in the woodstove,
they will have some small black spots of carbon or oxide or whatever ?
the Hot citric acid bath removes them and there are no pinkish or copperish
colored spots underneath. I wonder if you are getting them Hot enough to
fully anneal them ? Did you get them totally glowing red ?
Jon

Definatly getting them hot enough. I look at the cases when they are cold and they start collasping. The spot I am talking about is where the hot spot of the flame toaches the case. I am not going to worry to much about it since this is usually under the cartridge case.

[oneokie]

My guess is that the black spot is due to overheating the case in that spot. I experienced the same when I first started annealing case necks. After cleaning the cases with the Birchwood Casey liquid case cleaner, I also had the copper color on cases that I had overheated.

[GRUMPA]

Sasquatch, I only use the torch method when I trying to do something new where I only do just a handful of cases if that. And I do get those nasty dark spots that I take off with the SS media. But in order for me to anneal the cases and not get the nasty discoloration I use a Dutch Oven with a lid on a turkey fryer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764eb1c5525764b.jpg

The Thermometer is what I use when I cast and in about 45min on high it gets to 950deg-ish. Then I shut it off and let cool and they seem to be well annealed, I can crush the brass between my fingers.

[b52fizzle]

Got three turkey fryers now so now on my swaging grocery list a Dutch oven and good thermometer.

[Lizard333]

If you have an old propane tank, those work really well if you cut them in half.

[John Boy]

The Thermometer is what I use when I cast and in about 45min on high it gets to 950deg-ish. Then I shut it off and let cool and they seem to be well annealed, I can crush the brass between my fingers.:groner:
Grumpa - you are ruining your cases annealing the whole case at ... 950deg-ish

A few quotes in an article (with my highlights) how to properly anneal brass cases that you might want to read fully..
The Art and Science of Annealing (http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html)




The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.


The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.


Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

[GRUMPA]

John,

I anneal the cases for swagging and it is intentional. The intended purpose is to basically make the entire case soft for swagging.

I'm aware of annealing things like necks and such.

And folks, you don't HAVE to use a Dutch oven, a cast iron skillet with the same base diameter with a lid does the same thing, and I use both sometimes.

[John Boy]

I'm aware of annealing things like necks and such
Then why are you annealing at a temperature for the whole case, at temperature that is way beyond what it should be, putting yourself in an unsafe position shooting these over annealed cases and posting on a forum your totally incorrect way to anneal brass cases?
With the whole case over annealed means that the webs and bases of the cases are FAR SOFTER then the proper factory tensile strength for the ignition pressure of the caliber ... "At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm."

Other folks may not be familiar how to properly anneal brass cases, read your Dutch Oven method with a temperature in the 950 F range - believe you know what your talking about factually, they start doing your way incorrectly and also putting themselves in an unsafe condition shooting the reloads too.

Face facts Grumpa - you do not know how to properly anneal brass cases

[Reload3006]

what he was trying to tell you is he is not annealing the cases to load them he is using them for bullet jackets when we do this we want them totally annealed from top to bottom

[Crawdaddy]

Then why are you annealing at a temperature for the whole case, at temperature that is way beyond what it should be, putting yourself in an unsafe position shooting these over annealed cases and posting on a forum your totally incorrect way to anneal brass cases?
With the whole case over annealed means that the webs and bases of the cases are FAR SOFTER then the proper factory tensile strength for the ignition pressure of the caliber ... "At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm."

Other folks may not be familiar how to properly anneal brass cases, read your Dutch Oven method with a temperature in the 950 F range - believe you know what your talking about factually, they start doing your way incorrectly and also putting themselves in an unsafe condition shooting the reloads too.

Face facts Grumpa - you do not know how to properly anneal brass cases

JB, unless I have completely misread this thread, he is using the case as a projectile not to house powder and a controlled explosion. He wants it soft on purpose.

I think you are referring to annealing cases for loading not swaging?

I use a torch and I suspect mine even exceed 950.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[John Boy]

JB, unless I have completely misread this thread, he is using the case as a projectile not to house powder and a controlled explosion. He wants it soft on purpose.
Gentlemen - Thanks for the edification. That being the case, Grumpa ... my sincere apology. Guess, I better read up on James Evitts, hadn't I!

[Sasquatch-1]

I was wondering, if I get a piece of, say, 1/8th" steel cut to fit just over the burners in my gas grill, do you think this might work? I have noticed when warming the grill up for cooking it gets to the mid 700 degree mark. That is by the cheapo thermometer in the hood of the grill.

[Reload3006]

someone some where LOL (yea I know) has or had pics using a wire basket and annealing in their BBQ pit. or fire place ... Why not?

[GRUMPA]

I think it was BT and he lined the BBQ with fire brick so that more of the heat would be channeled around the brass.

Sasquatch, I see no reason why it wouldn't work the way you describe, but if there was a way for you to drill small holes into it allowing the heat to pass through I think that would work faster for you. Single layer on that and not just piling the brass in there unless you stirred it occasionally.

[a.squibload]

I was wondering, if I get a piece of, say, 1/8th" steel cut to fit just over the burners in my gas grill, do you think this might work? I have noticed when warming the grill up for cooking it gets to the mid 700 degree mark. That is by the cheapo thermometer in the hood of the grill.

I tried a saw blade that way, it shielded the brass
from the heat.
Tried a fry basket over the burner, worked OK but
had to shake it, hard to tell if all cases were getting hot enough.

Now I line 'em up mouth down on a cookie sheet &
heat each one with propane torch 'til case head just starts to glow,
heat soaks into rest of case.
Easier to see without bright lights in garage.
This way thermometer is not necessary.