Limits of LLA based lubes?

[SkookumJeff]

I'm about ready to plunk down my hard earned money on a new RCBS lube press & dies but before I do I was curious if I could just get by with a LLA based lube and tumble lubing. I haven't done enough experimenting on my own to know if the LLA formulations will suffice in my rifles. As I understand what I read here, the answer is NO due to the long barrel lengths and higher velocities for rifles. Do I have that right? Has anyone really quantified the limits of LLA based lubes with testing?

[runfiverun]

there are other formulas the drastically reduce the amount of calcium sopas [yeah the spanish term for soap] used in the recipe that will go over 2,000 fps easily.
calcium soaps will do things in the bbl we work really hard to avoid sadly it is also a necessary to make thing right.
look for recluses 45/45/10 lube and follow the directions you can lower the alox part add other things and the recipe doesn't have to be exact but you do have to cook down the jpw.

[geargnasher]

+1 to R5R's post. Recluse lube has been getting some people to 2K fps in .30 caliber rifles I know for a fact, but things have to be right with the load, alloy, etc. Not rocket science, but requires some trial-and-error.

The heavy calcium stearate content of any Alox formulation is what makes it work, but it's a double-edged sword as it accumulates in the barrel sometimes. Accuracy just never seems to be as good in my guns with liquid lubes as it is with grease-type lubes, but I'm sure there's room for improvement in tumble lube formulas. Right now Recluse's lube is about the best there is until someone comes up with a ZDDP/Tungsten disulfide coating held on the boolit with Vybar-enriched high-temp microcrystalline wax tempered with a little bit of synthetic two-cycle engine premix oil.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

I've gotten 2000 fps with regular lube grooved in rifles without any problems using LLA straight and applied liberaly in the lube grooves. I've not done well much past 1600 fps with the TL designed bullets as they do not seem to carry enough lube for longer barrels and high velocity. About 1200 fps is the max for TL bullets in handguns for me before leading and inaccuracy take hold. Others offer different experiences, that's mine. I'm perfectly happy to use LLA straight if I TL bullets.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

LLA is an odd thing to quantify in a load. It can do some loads really well and have epic failures in other loads.

Last year while working with a 1/12 twist H&R , LLA and a light dusting of motor mica was THE ANSWER on a given 3K+ load. It beat all my other lubes available accuracy wise.

Just last week while working with the Lee/Midsouth 7MM soupcan I had a great load using Mike's Micro Lithi and H322 in my 7TCU 10inch contender. I was trying to save some time so I did a batch of the same boolits with LLA. The results went from very good to an epic failure. While the MML groups were averaging around 1 inch @ 100 yards....the LLA groups were averaging 3+ inches. My shortcut was a bust and I went back to running the boolits through the lubesizer and all was well again.

LLA has it's place and most of the time it is with slow loads. I use LLA+MotorMica on all my 30, and 35 caliber subsonic plinker loads and it does well for that. The 223 load is the only time I have seen it eccel at HV over traditional lubes.

BUY the lubesizer.

[Junior1942]

Forget the lubesizer. Unless you have money to burn. LLA and Lee push-through sizers are great innovations. Use two coats of LLA--one before sizing and one after sizing.

[zomby woof]

In my experience, while I've gotten good accuracy, I found some mild leading in my 03A3. I used the LEE 180. When I changed to pan lubing and then LAM2 with 2500, the leading vanished.

[Lloyd Smale]

buy the lubesizer and avoid the headaches. You can allways still fool with alox if you want.

[1bluehorse]

buy the lubesizer and avoid the headaches. You can allways still fool with alox if you want.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner...Lloyds sentiments mirror my own..

[jonk]

Depends. For an utterly smooth bore under 26 inches and with a good bullet to throat/bore fit, LLA is fine for any velocity.

For somewhat frosty bores or odd bullet/throat combos, it fails badly.

I use it for handguns exclusively, and some rifles, but for most rifles use my rcbs or pan lube.

[rintinglen]

I have run 311-291 boolits double coated with straight LLA to 2300 fps from my 28 inch barrel Winchester 1895. I've run 311-466 boolits to 2100 fps from a 30-30. Accuracy was equal to jacketed in both cases, and leading was minimal.

I do have to concur with Gear that conventional lubes can produce tighter groups. in my 30-06, I have been able to shoot somewhat tighter groups using Javalina 50-50. It takes a 12 power scope and a benchrest to see it, but it is there.

[Jim]

Not long ago, I had a friend suggest I try pre-swabbing the bore with a 50/50 solution of mineral spirits and Alox and letting it dry overnight. It improved the accuracy a bit and the barrel was shiney when I was done shooting.

[beex215]

someone one needs to test the pre swabbing bore method. that sounds interesting.

[HiVelocity]

I read as much as I can on this forum; hopefully some of what I read will sink in. Waaaay too much to read in one sitting.

I read on a forum, possibly here, that prior to shooting CB's, you should clean your bore really well til a white patch comes out white. Then, saturate a clean patch with Johnson's Paste Wax and swab the bore thoroughly, let it dry completely. An hour or so later, buff the bore with another clean patch.

I've done this with pistol barrels, and it works relatively well with my handloads. I had (1) no leading; (2) whatever debris was left swabbed out with just a patch, and (3) clean-up was quick and easy.

I just cleaned and "polished" the bore of my 03' sporter and will try it later this week. Should be interesting to see what happens, and the results.

Anyone else try this? "Just food for thought".

HV

[cf_coder]

I don't pre-treat my bores, but I do use Recluse lube almost exclusively at this point.

I've shot it in everything that I reload for from 38 specials at 850 fps to 9mm to 35 remington using both tumble lube boolits and traditional lube groove boolits and I haven't had any issues with leading from properly sized bullets yet. Size your bullets right and Recluse will do everything you ask of it.

With that said, I think I'm going to try a suggestion that someone pointed out here and mix in some beeswax to the Recluse and shoot for a harder version of NRA 50/50. I'll still ranch dip it and use a cake cutter to clean them up, but I'll run 'em through the push through sizer a second time to pack the lube grooves and clean up the driving bands. We'll see how that works with some .223 boolits from my Mihec NATO mold...

[PuppetZ]

From what I gathered and my own experience, boolit fit is way more important than the type of lube you use. Proof would be the bazillion of lube recipe creators claim they work and the fact I pushed a perfect fit Lee C309-180-R at max load (for a jaxketed 180gn, hodgdon list 46gn of 4895) without leading and still good accy from my '06. I use a homemade concoction put together from what I had laying around, namely beeswax, engine smoke treatment and dexron III transaxle fluid mixed by eye(like a bloc of beeswax, a dash of this and a little of that). As far as lube goes, if the bullet fit the bore right in a well made barrel, the lube used does not matter much. Now in an irregular barrel, if your lube have the right properties, it might help.

Of course YMMV.

I'd buy the lubesizer only because pan lubing is just too darn slow.

[monge]

I Have not been casting very long dont have a engineering degree donnt have any degree at all , but have more common sense than most! tumble lubeing coats the hole boolit bottom sides and nose witch is a pain to get off, I have shot a lot of 44mags at velocites that were consitered to high for cast boolits with no leading. If I were to start casting for high power rifle I would start with a gas check boolit and tumble lube it and size it and tumble lube it again the gas check will protect the bottom of the boolit that long way down the rifle barrel. MY 2 CENTS

[MBTcustom]

I use two lubes at this point: FWFL (felix lube) and 45/45/10.
I have tested both of these pretty thoroughly in my pistols and my 358 caliber rifles.
Strait LLA is sticky and it tends to get dirt stuck on the boolits and lube stuck on the cases. Other than that, it works quite well. I tried 45/45/10 because it looked so easy to make, and it was advertized as making my lube last longer while reducing the problems associated with strait LLA. I found both of those claims to be true. It only takes a few drops and it works perfectly for driving boolits to normal ungaschecked velocities. With the addition of a gas check, I was able to get up to 1800fps with zero leading but started getting some minute streaks when I pushed it to 2000fps, which I attribute to:
A. only having one coat of lube and B. not having the fit of the boolit just right in the barrel. Irregardless, I started having some issues when I got past 1800fps, but up to 1800 fps didn't need anything special.
I have not found the top velocity for felix lube, and I use it on anything that needs to go faster than 1800fps. Its the best lube I have ever used bar none, and it is easily tuned to the application temperature according to geargnasher.
I also use 45/45/10 as a sizing lube and therefore all of my boolits get a dose of it.
I keep the 45/45/10 on the right and felix on the left. If the right one don't getcha then the left one will.:razz:

[Char-Gar]

I have not quantified the limits of LLA and have no interest in doing so. My success with the stuff has been spotty, some good, some bad and some so-so. There is nothing I can do with LLA that I can't do as well and better with traditional lube. I already have the machines so cost is involved and I am not pressed for time.

[MBTcustom]

My success with the stuff has been spotty, some good, some bad and some so-so.
That's cause your not holdin your head right buddy!