How far can you size a bullet down ?

[Johnch]

A freind wants to try some of 405 gr GC .459 bullets in his 454 TC encore.
As cast the bullet comes out about .460 and I would need to reduce it to .452 .
Is this to much ?

I have never tryed to reduce a bullet this much.

Johnch

[NVcurmudgeon]

I size .314" Lyman 314299 boolits to .310" for my Springfield NRA Sporter and still maintain match-winning accuracy. A few years ago a writer, Bob Milek, IIRC, sized .44 cast boolits for .41 Magnum, and .41s down to .357. I believe he first sized them in the original caliber to fill the lube grooves before sizing down to smaller calibers. Accuracy in this test was normal!

[ben1025]

No it's not too much. If I was doing it I would first hone (polish) the inside of the H&I die. Also the push rod. I do this with most of my dies anyway. Then size and lube like curmudgeon says. I would go to .457 or 458 if you have the dies. B4 I go to a .454 I would use case lube or similar to lube the bullets. Of course the harder the alloy the harder it is to size. That is how lubrisizers are broken. ben1025

[ben1025]

I wrote .454 but meant .452. Of course using intermittent dies if you have them would be better. ben1025

[Buckshot]

A freind wants to try some of 405 gr GC .459 bullets in his 454 TC encore.
As cast the bullet comes out about .460 and I would need to reduce it to .452 .
Is this to much ?

I have never tryed to reduce a bullet this much.

Johnch

............John, I did that very same thing, although to use in a different gun. I had a Spanish Destroyer carbine I had converted from 9mm Largo to 45 ACP. I took the Lee 459-405F and tumble lubed it, then lube-sized it .457" and then sent it up through a Lee push through .452" size die to load in the 45 ACP. Heh, heh! The slug was as long as the case.

http://www.fototime.com/68E891AD4F08210/standard.jpg
The 2 on the right are both 45 cal rifle boolits (.459") sized to .452" to use in a Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt.

In another instance I had a M1909 Argentine with a .314" groove, which I could deal with, but it had a .303" bore. Got nada that fat. I took a Lyman 323470 (8mm) at .325" and lube-sized it .323". Then I ran it up through a Lee .314" die.

In all instances these all shot as well as anything else shot. In fact the 2 heavies in the Vaquero did better for the most part then ANYTHING ever fired in it. It hasn't proven to be a notably accurate revolter to this point.

The problem in radical sizing is to not destroy the alignment of the boolit through bending it, or sizing on an angle. I'd suggest lube-sizing to .457, 458, or 459", then using a push through size die to take it down to size.

..............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

As cast the bullet comes out about .460 and I would need to reduce it to .452 .
Is this to much ?

I have never tryed to reduce a bullet this much.

Johnch

John,

There are always exceptions, but my simple rule is that you can size down as far as the lube grooves will remain .005 deep. That is just so your rifling doesn't bottom out for higher pressure applications.

If you are base pouring .... l o n g .... bullets for real small calibers, where molding good quality can be difficult because of voids which normally occur in the base as trapped air raises, I think better "balanced" bullets can be made from one caliber up. Mold design options may even be better in the larger bore. And the GC will be taller too. Next best thing to swaging.

[Johnch]

Thanks for the info .

I Have a .454 Lee Push thru and the H&I .459

Boy is he going to pay [smilie=l:

JOhnch

[StarMetal]

Yup, Bass is about right. Me and ole Buckeroo buckshot are the size down masters. We've sized down one caliber to maybe as far as two calibers away. Like bass says you have to have some lube grooves left.

Joe

[Maven]

Johnch, Several years ago Buckshot spoke of radically resizing CB's via a Lee push-through [resizing] die, claiming that accuracy was essentially the same. After pondering this for a while, I decided to try it in my 7.65 Arg. Mau. I had a few LBT spire points (looks something like Lyman #311413) around that were already lubed and sized to .324" for my 8mm Mau. and some #314299's @ .314" for the 7.65 x 53. Starting with CB's whose lube grooves were filled with bullet lube (your choice) to prevent the bearing surfaces from collapsing, I resized them to .314" in one pass a la Buckshot. (This includes the .324" -> .314" gas checks) in my Lee push through die. After loading and firing the radically resized CB's v. #314299's, I saw no differences in accuracy. I repeated the test some time later with the same results. However, I should add that it took a lot of force on my press handle to do this. Moreover, the CB must be perfectly aligned with the die and its lube grooves filled to create accurate, albeit it narrower, CB's. Radical resizing isn't the problem conventional wisdom claims it is: Misaligned dies, non-coaxial resizing, etc. are the true "thieves" of accuracy.

[StarMetal]

Maven

That's not that radical. I did one that surprised even Buckshot and we talked about it in lenght and that is I sized a .284 150 gr Lyman loverin to .264. It still had ample lube groove and worked fine. Me and ole Buckeroo have been doing this for quite some time, but he never had gone as far as I have with it. He will now though.

As an aside note, I'm beginning to think that the old thinking that ANY resizing of the bullet hurts it's accuracy, although probably true, doesn't hurt it that much. Look at the drastic resizing that myself, Buckshot, now you have done. I believe if your resizing equipment is properly aligned and doesn't bend the bullet, that it's not hurting it that much.

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

Maybe the reason that the oldtimers were against any sizing of a boolit was because of the sizing dies they had. I started out with the old-style Lyman dies with the step in them. It wasn't that difficult to scrape away much of the lube grooves from one side of the boolit!

[StarMetal]

Curmudge

That's kind of what I was thinking also.

Joe

[Johnch]

I just sized 100 for my freind and 20 for me .
Everything looks fine .
I checked to see if the grease groves had stayed consistant .
As close as I can tell the grease groves stayed the same depth all the way around the bullet .

So if he has accurey problems it is not the bullet.

I plan on trying the 20 I kept in my Ruger 454 .

Johnch

[26Charlie]

Johnch, using the Lee push-through die I have sized .338 bullets to .330 for the 8x56R Hungarian.
I have also, using the lyman tapered (not step) H&I die sized soft 457125 500gr. RN bullets to .439 for the 11mm Spanish Rolling Block. Granted, this worked because the bands on the bullet were narrow and the alloy soft, but it could be done.

[beagle]

What you're wanting to do is workable.

I have a old Ideal 446XXX. Don't remember what it is. Weighs about 370 grains anyway.

In stages, I've taken it down to .430" for use in the .444. Now, this was in a nose first sizer that Crazy Mark rigged up. The bullets do tend to elongate somewhat and the grease grooves get shallow.

Lube and size first and this helps somewhat in maintaining the grease grooves.

Every year, I make abunch of RCBS 45-325-FN bullets for a friend who has a Casull. This is taking them down from .458 to .452 and is done in one pass.

I regularly shoot the bullet, Lymans 457191 and Lyman's 457122HP in my .45 Colt Riger.

Works good, give it a whirl./beagle

[Buckshot]

............Yup, I forgot I did what Beagle did. Used the RCBS 43-370 for the 43 Spanish which dropped at .440". Lube-sized to .439", then sized .432". Boiled out the lube and paper patched'em with 9# paper so they were back up to .439". Then I sprayed the paper patch with Moly Lube and sent'em back up through the .432" die to use in a .444 Marlin-Martini.

http://www.fototime.com/C9730B459E8C514/standard.jpg

..............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

I hold the opinion that it how you size a bullet, not how much, that counts. The pressure required to take down a bullet more than .004 in a base first sizer often distorts the bullet in terms of inducing crookedness. The longer and small the bullet the worse this problem becomes. However you can size bullet nose first just about any amount as long as you don't destroy the lube grooves.

Last year I ran sized some .317 311291 bullet down to .309 and some .310 311191U bullets down to the same size. One bullet was sized .008 and the other .001. Both were shot over know accurate powder charge in a single shot rifle of known accuracy. The groups were identical between the two bullets. Both were sized nose first.