30 cal @ 1700-1800 fps

[lead chucker]

Any one hunt with a 30 cal at 17-1800 fps for deer and black bear? I have a 308 win and am shooting a 311299 I limit my self to under 200 yards. My best accuracy is in the 17-1800 velocity. I would think that would be more than adequate but would like to hear from some one that has done it. My bullets have a real shallow hp so it's like having a flat nose with a shallow cup in it. BHN is 14-15.

[303Guy]

I am planning on it with my pig gun. My boolits are going to be in the 205gr to 216gr range, most likely 208gr at similar velocities to you, maybe a bit slower as my gun has a short barrel. What weight does your mold cast? I'm not familiar with mold numbers.

[quilbilly]

Having done my usual terminal ballistics test with my 30/30 with a 160 gr RNGC at 1550, I have absolutely no doubt 15-1700 FPS is more than adequate for any deer you might encounter as well as any small to medium black bear (less than 250#) all out to 150 yards. My target is 20" of soaked phone books with a piece of thin plywood at 3" at a distance of 40 yards.

[lead chucker]

303Guy
311299 is a 200 gr and it's a Lyman mold and with two parts WW to 1 part lead + 2% tin for the pure lead part and heat treated they run 199-200 gr with aluminum gc. I have a free checks II in the 30 cal I use aluminum flashing I got from the lumber yard.

[lead chucker]

Quilbilly does it shoot clean through all that? I was thinking of doing something similar. Shag carpet for hide and har then 1/4 ply wood for ribbs and two water jugs for lungs and then plywood and carpet then something to catch the bullet for examination. What do you think?

[clodhopper]

Cant vouch for 30 cal. But 35 cal RCBS 200 grain flat point at 1800 makes every deer I ever shot with it fall over dead.
Only tried it on four whitetails.
Put the bullet where it counts, the heart lung zone, and you will be busy dragging

[lead chucker]

Yup things don't go very far with holes in there lungs. I think it would punch right through a shoulder too. I have lots of time to do some testing before deer season starts but Black bears are coming out right now. I have shot Black bear with my ruger 77/44 with cast bullets but have not yet with my 30 cal cast bullets.

[Gelandangan]

not sure about bears, we don't shoot koalas, and I'm way too lazy to get the rare deer.

I can definitely vouch that solid point 311299 at 1600fps are deadly on goats and pigs.

[1kshooter]

I think that the spped with the weight is fine and more than enough ...accuracy is key and if you put it where it needs to go then it's game on....the grill lol!
Jonathan

[runfiverun]

200 yds will be pushing it a bit.
pushing my 175 gr fp in my 8mm to 1950 fps. i drop 2-1/2" from 50 to 100 yds.
so i sight in at 100 then i am 2-1/2" high at 50 and @ 2-1/2" low at 150 yds.
i'm comfortable with those numbers and distances in case i don't get the perfect broadside shot,
i still have enough oomph to penetrate.
but i am accused of not using enough boolit :lol:

[GabbyM]

The RCBS 30-180-FN cast from soft lead fired at subsonic levels will two step a big deer.
Range is of course limited. Not sure if the bullet expands or just tumbles due to low velocity yielding low stability. Bullets pass through with adequate exit hole. Deer generally drop within fifty feet of shot. It’s a bit uncanny as the energy is hand gun level.
From soft lead the RCBS 180 FN weighs in at about 200 grains and is long. It seams to me that long for caliber bullets kill well. 160 grain 6.5mm has a big rep for dropping game for instance.

[303Guy]

I used my pig gun for a coup de grâce on a goat (head shot) and the effects were quite encouraging. I'm guessing the velocity was around 1500/1600fps. No idea what kind of penetration those boolits would have but I don't see them stopping too easily and the above posts confirm that notion.

[Larry Gibson]

303Guy
311299 is a 200 gr and it's a Lyman mold and with two parts WW to 1 part lead + 2% tin for the pure lead part and heat treated they run 199-200 gr with aluminum gc. I have a free checks II in the 30 cal I use aluminum flashing I got from the lumber yard.

Let me make a suggestion for your hunting bullets. Get a box of Hornady GCs. Yes you can make the aluminum ones much cheaper but the accuracy problems above 1800 fps are probably GC related. My own .014 thick aluminum GCs give accuracy problems above 1800 fps also. The crimp on Hornady won't as they will stay on the bullet. A box of 1,000 GCs may seem expensive but for hunting they will last many years.

Another suggestion is to soften up your alloy. Mix 2% tin with the COWWs, then add 50% lead to that. Let the bullets AC for 10 days before sizing, GCing, lubing and using. A soft lube like Javelina or 2500+ will work best. Start with a clean barrel and clean the barrel every 8 - 10 shots to maintain best accuracy. Yes I know all about "seasoning" and "cold bore flyers" but we're talking hunting here and wanting the best in terminal ballistics along with hunting accuracy. The clean bore with these soft cast bullets driven hard will give the best accuracy for 5 - 10 shots. After that groups will open. I think of it this way; if I've not got the deer in 5 shots I might as well go home and clean the rifle anyway.......

Use a medium burning powder such as 4895 with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Start at 28 gr and work up until accuracy exceeds your accuracy expectations for hunting. I consider 200 yards to be the practical limit for most rifle cast bullet loads. If pushed to 2000 - 2200 fps the 311299 is a 200 yard capable cast bullet. I also have killed a lot of deer with 3 moa capable rifles. If your rifle has a 10" twist barrel then 2000 fps is probable. You should be able to work up a load that will keep the 1st five shots from a cold clean bore in 3 moa or better at 200 yards. If your .308W has a 12" twist then 2100 - 2200 fps is in the cards for the sam 3 moa capability at 200 yards.

With the 311299 cast soft and pushed to at least 2000 fps it will be much more effective on deer and Blk bear. It pretty much will equal the old 303 Savage in hunting performance, especially if you slightly flatten or HP the 311299s.

With your load at 17-1800 fps the bullet is down to 1350 - 1440 fps at 200 yards. That is not much velocity to get any reasonable expansion from the 311299 and unless the bullets hit something quite solid they will slip right through. Yes the deer will be dead but it can go a long ways before it decides it's dead. At 2100 fps that 311299 will still have 1700 fps at 200 yards, just about what the other does at the muzzle. With you 17-1800 fps and the alloy you are using I would limit it to no more than 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

[lead chucker]

Thanks for all that info. did not know about the aluminum gc being a problem over 1800 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for all that info. did not know about the aluminum gc being a problem over 1800 fps.

Problem is it doesn't happen all the time with all bullets. I use .014 thick aluminum and it fits tighter on some bullet shanks than others and it depends on how much they get sized also. I recently got a lots of dings in the Oehler diffusors on Skyscreens when chronographing some 30-30 loads at 1900 - 2200 fps. I know it was the GC because i dug a chunk of one out of a diffusor. Accuracy was lousy with numerous flyers from the GCs coming off like that. The face of the middle screen got a good chunk knocked out also. Doesn't happen with the brass .014 GCs I make. Start screen was at 12 feet BTW.

Larry Gibson

[lead chucker]

Larry I have some hornady gc's I will try them also I posted the other day that I had to seat my bullets a little deeper than I would like the top of the gas check is right at the bottom of the neck. Currently I'm averaging 1770 fps with real good groups one with three touching clover leaf and one with three touching and one real close I'm using 24 gr xmp5744. I have found some gc in the snow on the back side of my plywood target. Have not found Any on the way to the target. Have recovered a few bullets and none have gc on them. These are the aluminum ones. If I aneele my aluminum and make the gc real soft I wonder if they would be tighter.

[lead chucker]

Nice looking bullet. Making them is kind of involved isn't it? You need two melting pots. Right. I saw a YouTube vid once by ammo smith he was showing how to make them.

[Frank]

No, one melting pot. I make the SP's with a SP mold. Then I change the alloy in the pot to my hard alloy. I get the bullet mold hot, drop in the "point", crush it in with a wood dowel so it heats up and melts, then I pour the hard alloy. The two alloys bond together. It works great.

[lead chucker]

This is what the hp looks like it's pretty shallow so I don't think it would over expand.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_124014fa4c627ca005.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5067)

[Lead Fred]

I use the RD mold @ 2200fps. Got no bears in my backyard, so I have no test subjects

[Larry Gibson]

A HP has a limited working range and is dependent on softening the alloy, which makes the bullet less accurate.

Out to the practical hunting range of 200 yards, maybe 250 with some cartridges, I've not found softer, amlleable alloyed hunting bullets to be really less accurate. I've also found the HP to enhance expansion across that range. The choice of which to use just really depends on the equiment available to the castor. I can HP any bullet with the Forster tool and can also double alloy with the moulds I have. Either way produces very good expanding hunting bullets. The 2 alloyed bullet is a good option with both working equally well. No real need to denegrate one to justify the other.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

This is what the hp looks like it's pretty shallow so I don't think it would over expand.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_124014fa4c627ca005.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5067)

Nice!:happy dance:

Larry Gibson

[1kshooter]

neat looking HP can't wait to see some animal pic's and hear storys of how they worked for you!
Jonathan

[Frank]

Larrry Gibson:

No real need to denegrate one to justify the other.
The SP provides the optimum wound channel through an unlimited working range. The HP needs the specific alloy and has a limited working range. If it is short range, it can cause too much damage.

[Larry Gibson]

Whatever you say Frank.................after all, what do I know about cast HPs......only been using them for 40+ years...........

Larry Gibson

[Frank]

Larry Gibson:

Whatever you say Frank.................after all, what do I know about cast HPs......only been using them for 40+ years...........

Larry Gibson

I'm just quoting what Veral Smith says. What he says in his book is backed by his own testing and that of thousands of customers who provided him with feedback on game performance. It is not just what I say. It is in the book and he even shows pictures of results. Where are yours? :coffeecom

[Hamish]

Another Option
A HP has a limited working range and is dependent on softening the alloy, which makes the bullet less accurate.

HUH? A softer alloy is less accurate??????

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson:


I'm just quoting what Veral Smith says. What he says in his book is backed by his own testing and that of thousands of customers who provided him with feedback on game performance. It is not just what I say. It is in the book and he even shows pictures of results. Where are yours? :coffeecom

Quoting some one else with a product to sell????? That's obviously an objective opinion. I've no problem with Veral or his products BTW and understand advertising and "selling" your own product. Ever read an old Herter's catalog and you know what I mean by "selling".

Where are mine? Here's two examples with 3 deer showing the HPs, an entry and exit wound and the 3 dead deer for a starter, the 35-300-FN HP'd (M91 rebarreled to 35 Rem) with the Forster tool and the 311041 HP out of the Savage '06. Velocity for the 35 was 2150 and the '06 was at 2050 fps. Thought I'd also add the 1st deer I killed with the 311041HP out of a .308W, a blk tail in Oregon back in '69....who is that handsome young man........not quotes, just facts........:drinks:

BTW; where's yours?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

HUH? A softer alloy is less accurate??????

So says Frank.

Larry Gibson

[Frank]

That's the entrance and exit hole. How about a channel comparison? What a HP versus a SP does inside.


Quoting some one else with a product to sell?????

Everybody is selling something. Who has decades of experience making performance cast bullets molds used by thousands of hunters and bullet manufacturers all over the world? Someone who is in that position is certainly is in a position to tell us what works, why it works and what doesn't. [smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

"Inside".....they both kill the deer. The heart and lungs were toast.

If you stop arguing a moot point and reread my post you'll see I said both bullet types worked. Just no need to denegrate one to justify the other is my comment. That refers to what you said and I did not state that Verals bullets do not work. Veral's bullets work just fine, so do HPs. There is no need to defend Verals bullet moulds. I can't make it any simpler than that for you Frank.


BTW; Where's your pictures of your hunting success? Please include entrance and exit wounds and what was done inside. Many of us with experience who have gutted any number of deer and noted such things understand that the entrance and exit wounds most often gives a clear picture of what went on inside the deer.

Larry Gibson

[troy_mclure]

I like how so many people think you need a special boolit design to kill deer. You are shooting thru some tough hide, possibly a hard 3/8" rib, and 2 spongy balloons, and back out.

The only reason you need a hp/sp or other fancy boolit is if you like to anchor the deer by shooting it in the shoulder.

[caseyboy]

To get back on topic. The picture in my avatar is a blacktail shot with a 321297 out of a M94 in 32WS. Shot distance was 50 to 60 yds. Flat point, AC range scrap, no GC at about 1300fps. In one side and out the other breaking the far side shoulder. Deader than Ceasar after a 60 yds run. If 1300fps can do it, 1700 to 1800 fps will work. Limit your distance as much as possible and put it where it counts. A bad shot with either a SP or a HP may not kill what you are aiming at!

[lead chucker]

My bullets have been right around 14-15 BHN and having the shallow hp I figure if the hp works great if it doesn't expand well then it's a flat point with a dimple in it. If the hp gets torn off well there should still be plenty of weight behind it to do the job. I will post picks if I am able to get the opportunity to shoot a black bear with this bullet. I like your pics Larry. I wish more people would post there pics. I try to remember and take the time to snap a couple pictures when I go hunting. It's always nice to look back on them. A while back I found a old pic of a black bear i shot and I had kind of forgot about it. After looking at the pic I could remember every thing about that hunt and that was 20 years ago.

[Frank]

Larry Gibson says:

Quoting some one else with a product to sell????? That's obviously an objective opinion. I've no problem with Veral or his products BTW and understand advertising and "selling" your own product. Ever read an old Herter's catalog and you know what I mean by "selling".
Veral's right about what he suggests and what is written in his book. I don't feel it is just advertising like you make it out. I have tried several things and he is right on! His molds are to perfection. I would bet on an LBT mold far outperforming any other mold. Take for instance the SP. What have we heard here about that? Not much. Guys pouring lead in little spickets to make the SP. Sounds like the dark ages. Veral book states, "Nope, not good. Best is to have a custom mold." And he spells it out in detail from A-Z. Who else does that? My hunting experience is limited due to my location. But I do plan to use my LBT bullets to get game at any range. I now have the tools to do the job. :coffeecom

[runfiverun]

frank:
that flyer is the lube.
looks like a cold bbl flyer.

Larry:
nice blacktails.
glad i wasn't the one pulling the lungs out of them.

chucker:
what you got will work just fine.

[miestro_jerry]

I use the RD TLC311-165-RF in my Marlin 336 30-30. With gas checks that I got from a group buy. I use WW 748 powder about 34 grains, I have chrono'd the bullet at 2,150 (avg for 12 boolets). My allow is WW with 10% additional range lead to make them softer. I use this combination for deer hunting and for offing coyotes.
Please note that I make a lube from Xlox, bees wax and one secret additive, that I warm up to a more liquid state before I dip the bullets in the lube, then let the lube harden.
This has been one of my best hunting loads over the last 5 years.

I am now going to have to try making a soft hollow point smaller bullet and the fill the rest of the mold with a different hardness of lead.

A bullet doesn't have to be harder to be more accurate, it can be softer. I will note that most of my hunting is at 150 yards or less.

Jerry

[caseyboy]

Nice group Frank. I get groups like that with my 7-08. Just about every shot touching at 100.

[Blammer]

not the 311299 but I used the 311284 at 1850 fps to kill a deer at 150 yds or so. One shot.
these are air cooled ww's.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8323.jpg

Where the boolit struck. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg

average group for me at 100yds
with this projectile
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/311284.jpg

the projectile, but NOT the lube I use
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6281crop.jpg

[richhodg66]

The 311284 shoots very well in my .30-06 with the Lyman ercommended most accurate load, I believe it is 22 grains of SR4759 if I recall correctly. I love that bullet and wondered if it would perform well in I cast it soft (my previous shooting with it has ben on paper and cast pretty hard).

May I ask what your loading was? I assume your rifle is an '06?

Playing around with the RD 311 165 grain bullet now and will get to shoot my first batch today in a Marlin lever gun. I had good results last season with the Ideal 31141 in the .30-30, but as it was a broad side shot at less than 10 yards, I don't think it was much of a test. I'd use that bullet again, no problem, but I've heard so many good things about the RanchDog and the ability to cast six at a time make me want to pursue it.

[lead chucker]

308 win with 24 gr xmr 5744 that load seems tobe pretty accurate but am still testing other loads and gas checks.

[Larry Gibson]

My bullets have been right around 14-15 BHN and having the shallow hp I figure if the hp works great if it doesn't expand well then it's a flat point with a dimple in it. If the hp gets torn off well there should still be plenty of weight behind it to do the job. I will post picks if I am able to get the opportunity to shoot a black bear with this bullet. I like your pics Larry. I wish more people would post there pics. I try to remember and take the time to snap a couple pictures when I go hunting. It's always nice to look back on them. A while back I found a old pic of a black bear i shot and I had kind of forgot about it. After looking at the pic I could remember every thing about that hunt and that was 20 years ago.

having the shallow hp I figure if the hp works great if it doesn't expand well then it's a flat point with a dimple in it. If the hp gets torn off well there should still be plenty of weight behind it to do the job.

That's it exactly. Trick is to simply use a malleable alloy that expands well enough and a HP that is not too deep so the expansion petals slough or break off. A 14 - 15 BHn should do well although mine are down in the 11-12 BHN range. I've had nothing but excellent results to 200 yards ever since I went that route.

I took a lot of pictures in my younger days and then kind of let it go by the wayside. Wish I hadn't now. We think we'll remember every hunt and every moment but we don't, they all are forgotten or fade into one. Pictures and trophies bring back the memories for sure. I'm working on getting my old photo's on electron so I can post them or email to old hunting partners.

Larry Gibson

[Blammer]

31gr of IMR 3031 in a 30-06

[Tomkitty]

I have been using Lyman 311041 FN GC bullets in my 308 with 20 grs 5744 powder. Even though this load is only about 1600-1700 fps, I have shot 1 deer at 110 yds (broadside shot through heart) and one feral hog at 100 yds (frontal shot into chest cavity). Both were dead on the spot. Well, the deer ran about 20 ft before falling. The hog, 130 pounds live weight, went straight down at the shot. 30-cal flatnose boolits at reasonable range will kill like Thor's hammer. My boolits were air-cooled wheel weights.