1899 Savage

[frnkeore]

The recent thread about the Sav 30 marking has got me thinking about other 1899 things and I have a few of questions, plus, I'd just like more info on these rifles so, add anything about 1899's you like to this thread.

I only have one Savage a 1899 in 303 Savage #21.5xx

My questions are,

1. Why are there 2 sources of numbers? In my search, mine comes in as EITHER 1900 or 1902.

2. My 303 has a groove diameter of .306. I believe that I read that it was never a .311 type like the 303 British but, .306 seems a bit small. I have two Remingtons (Mod 141 & 30) that are .306 but, I had no idea that the Savage would be that small.

3. Why was the length of the tang changed with the release of the Model 99? Was it because of the tang sight going out of favor or something else? Seems tang sights would have still been popular at that time.

4. My serial number has a dot instead of a coma or just numbers. When was the dot marking droped?

Frank

[starmac]

Well you got my curiosity up. Mine was supposedly made in 32 by the only source I have ever checked, and I just checked all three serial numbers I can easily see has no dot or comma.

[Rimfire]

This link will take you to the best place for Sav.99 questions that I have seen.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forums/40/1/Savage_Collectors

[gnoahhh]

There's a lot of discrepancy in the date of manufacture for pre-WWI guns because they didn't build them, accept them into the warehouse, or ship them sequentially. I would say #21,500 was probably built in 1900, but didn't ship out until 1901 or 1902. A letter from the Savage historian will tell the tale.

Very early Savage .30 barrels can be all over the map size-wise. My theory is they were frugal with their boring reamers and re-sharpened them a lot, past when they should have discarded them. They seem to have corrected that a couple years later. From 1910 or so the bore dimensions became pretty uniform.

Not sure I understand the question re: tang length. Tangs were all the same length from around #90,000 to the bitter end. (I could be off a bit on that number, I don't have my notes with me.)

I have seen dots instead of commas only on 5-digit numbers- and then not always. Don't know why. Tail of the comma easily broken off on the stamper? I think you'll find a lot of later guns have no comma at all.

With all things Savage, never say never. Anomalies are constantly turning up.

[frnkeore]

It's my understanding that all, 1899 have a tang lenght of 3 1/8" long and all 99's have a tang that measures 3" long.

"I think you'll find a lot of later guns have no comma at all."

That was my question, when did the use of the dot/comma end, if that is known?

Frank

[gnoahhh]

I posed those questions to my serious Savage collector friends and the replies I got were unanimous in that the tang length changed on the 1899s when they went from the square ended bolt to the radius-ended bolt, concurrently with the moving of the cocking indicator from the bolt body back into the tang. That happened at the #90,000 mark.

The comma/dot disappeared in the same time period with #99,999. Nobody has seen many/any six digit numbers with the comma. But, being Savage, I wouldn't bet money that that is a hard and fast rule.

[bowfin]

From this website:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledge+Base/.300+Savage.html

Although .303 Savage ammunition was originally loaded with .311” bullets (groove .311”/ land .303”), bore diameters of the original model 95 and 99 rifles were typically .308”. Some rifle historians state that it was Savage’s intention to use an oversized projectile to generate pressure and velocity. Other sources state that bores of the first model 95’s were .311” in diameter but with the popularity of the .30 caliber growing, both bore and ammunition dimensions were changed to .308. Whatever the case, .303 Savage ammunition was later changed to the more common .308” bullet diameter with powder charges increased accordingly. Ammunition for the .303 Savage was made by Dominion, Peters and Remington UMC.

[ajjohns]

Mine number is 300 thousand something and cents and there's no comma or dot in it. When did Winchester start making 190 gr. ammo for it? That's mostly what I have and some Remington 180's. Did I read right at one time there was only a few of the manufactures at the time who used the .311 bullet? The others used .308.

[frnkeore]

I posed those questions to my serious Savage collector friends and the replies I got were unanimous in that the tang length changed on the 1899s when they went from the square ended bolt to the radius-ended bolt, concurrently with the moving of the cocking indicator from the bolt body back into the tang. That happened at the #90,000 mark.

The comma/dot disappeared in the same time period with #99,999. Nobody has seen many/any six digit numbers with the comma. But, being Savage, I wouldn't bet money that that is a hard and fast rule.

gnoahhh,

Thank you for that info. I'm not a serious Savage collector (at least not now) but, I always like knowing details of the things that I have.

bowfin,

Thank you, also. That does make since but, makes me want to queery 1895 owners as to there groove diameter.

Any 1895 collectors out there that would like to add there bore/groove sizes?

Frank

[gnoahhh]

From this website:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledge+Base/.300+Savage.html

Although .303 Savage ammunition was originally loaded with .311” bullets (groove .311”/ land .303”), bore diameters of the original model 95 and 99 rifles were typically .308”. Some rifle historians state that it was Savage’s intention to use an oversized projectile to generate pressure and velocity. Other sources state that bores of the first model 95’s were .311” in diameter but with the popularity of the .30 caliber growing, both bore and ammunition dimensions were changed to .308. Whatever the case, .303 Savage ammunition was later changed to the more common .308” bullet diameter with powder charges increased accordingly. Ammunition for the .303 Savage was made by Dominion, Peters and Remington UMC.

Yep, what I said earlier.

I think Remington/Peters were the only ones to market 180 grain .303 savage loads. The rest were 190's. Personally, I use nothing but 190 FN boolits for my hunting loads. Why waltz when you can rock-and-roll?!

[windy]

gnoahhh, what're you using fer a mold? and what's yer huntin' load? i still ain't had the chance to try any 190's in mine; 180 sierra rn's work ok but fit th' case kinda funny. hawk wants 123 bucks fer 150 190 j-words; not impossible, but a bit over the top. don't know anybody else sellin' 190's to try 'em. my 303 is a special-order 28" octagon-barreled horse; needs a front sight, but ain't been altered otherwise. i, too, would rather rock 'n roll.
mind yer topknot!
windy


sonny, whar i growed up, "magnum" wuz jist another word fer "lousy hunter".

[gnoahhh]

Windy, my favorite 190 FN GC mould was a custom design furnished by Saeco about 30+ years ago. One of the founding members of the CBA had it made for a custom fit in the throat of his .30/30 bench gun. He sold it to me shortly thereafter as he became terminally ill. Fortuitously it has fitted many of my .30 rifles beautifully down through the years, and is the one mould they better bury with me!

For deer hunting loads in the .303 Savage, I cast it out of ww/lead/tin for a bhn of 10-12, and propel it with 28gr. 3031. For target practice I cast them a bit harder as ones at the soft end of my hunting recipe start to lead a bit after 10-15 shots.

[floodgate]

If you closely compare Savage 99's above and below the 90,000 serial "break point", you may notice some upsettage and possibly the start of a crack in the receiver at the left rear corner. This led Savage to radius the rear of the bolt and add about 3/16" more metal to the main receiver body, before it narrows down to the tang section. (This is why newer stocks won't fit up tight to older '99's without removing some wood.) It is reported that if you sent in a pre-90,000 1899 for repair, they would scrap the receiver (and the square-back bolt) and install a new action, and refit or replace the stock - at no charge . As a smart-aleck kid, I once tried to "blow" a junker pre-90,000 Savage receiver that had the crack at the rear corner with a hellacious load of Unique (NOT from the shoulder, but wired to a tire with a l o n g string to the trigger), but it blew the barrel out of the receiver ring (which had a coupla pairs of scope-mount screw holes drilled through it) without further damage to the rear end.

We slugged a number of the older barrels, and they varied in groove diameter all over the lot. I think it was more a "Monday - Friday" thing - or possibly (as suggested above) trying to get more use out of the tooling, that any conscious plan.

Incidentally, Winchester, with their first .30-30's, initially specified a 0.305" bullet diameter, splitting the difference between the 0.300" bore and 0.308"- 0.310" groove diameters. I guess they figured the jacket engraving would skoosh SIDEWAYS to fill the grooves!

[Artful]

Windy, my favorite 190 FN GC mould was a custom design furnished by Saeco about 30+ years ago. One of the founding members of the CBA had it made for a custom fit in the throat of his .30/30 bench gun. He sold it to me shortly thereafter as he became terminally ill. Fortuitously it has fitted many of my .30 rifles beautifully down through the years, and is the one mould they better bury with me!


I'd be real interested to see a picture or dimensional drawing of this mold. Would that be possible.

[Bret4207]

Nice to see you around Doug! You're missed here.

[gnoahhh]

Artful, I'll take a macro shot of a bare bullet from that mold, and include detailed measurements, at my earliest opportunity, and post the results.

[Bret4207]

The RCBS 30-180FN in my alloy drops about 192-193 grs. About perfect for the 303.

[M99SavNut]

gnoahh, that would be much appreciated! I have a couple of .303s which I would like to shoot with a boolit designed for the long case neck and with the original weight of the now-obsolete Winchester 190-gr. J*****SilverTip. It'd be nice to have your info to look at, and use as a guide when I'm looking for such a mold.

[gnoahhh]

I'll do it tonight when I get home. It has a very wide flat meplat, and I'm here to tell you it 'splats' when it hits a deer, when cast of straight air cooled WW's.