Thoughts on Trail Boss

[mdevlin53]

I have been reading lots of posts anbout different things and yesterday there was a discussion that included Trail Boss so i looked it up and it seems to be some what similar to Black Powder in that you can fill the case and shoot your round. I am working on some hand made cartridges for some old bolt action german rifles in odd metric calibers and was wondering if this powder would be an alternative to sooting BP.

[Nobade]

Trail Boss is a very fluffy, extremely fast burning powder. In handgun cartridges a case full normally produces a very useful load, well within the pressure limits of modern firearms. Loaded in large rifle cartridges, it can sometimes generate much more pressure than you would think based on the velocity it produces. Its pressure peak is almost as fast as black powder, and could potentially be detrimental to old bolt action rifles in odd metric calibers.

I use it quite a bit in rifle cartridges in modern guns, and in any bottleneck round I have found that a case full to the base of the bullet is too much. I start getting leading and poor accuracy, indicating high pressure even the velocity is quite low. Personally I would use something like IMR 4198 or Accurate #5744 to try to duplicate black powder velocity rather than using Trail Boss. I have no doubt it can be done, maybe not get velocity as high as is possible with black powder, but make a rifle fire. But that super fast pressure peak could be a bad thing when combined with large cases and old steel.

[WildmanJack]

I don't think filling thee case with Trail Boss would be a very good idea. Yes it does take up more room as Trail Boss looks like Cheerios or little doughnuts in it's make up but. to just fill a case up with it could prove to be a disaster. If you are concerned about using black powder, don't be. yup, it's a bit on the dirty side, but cleans up with a couple of wet patches thru the barrel. It's actually easier to clean up than smokeless.. If the gun was made to shoot Black, then use black, it's safer in that gun and more fun.
Just my humble opinion..
Jack

[John Boy]

... and it seems to be some what similar to Black Powder in that you can fill the case and shoot your round. I am working on some hand made cartridges for some old bolt action german rifles in odd metric calibers and was wondering if this powder would be an alternative to sooting BP.
mdevlin, believe that haven't read the title of this category on Cast Boolits which has no relationship to smokeless powder reloads ...

Black Powder Cartridge BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.
Further, may want to read the profile for Trail Boss ... http://www.imrpowder.com/trailboss.html

That said, call IMR and verify this statement for loading data for calibers not listed on their website ...

Fill the case to the bottom of the bullet and weigh it. That is your maximum load. Then take 75 percent of that and that is your starting load.

[Mike Brooks]

In my opinion, it has too much pressure for too little velocity. Probably alright for CAS loads, but for big rifle cartridges there are far better choices.

[Ed in North Texas]

mdevlin, believe that haven't read the title of this category on Cast Boolits which has no relationship to smokeless powder reloads ...
snip


True, but I think he is more likely to find people knowledgeable about the BP Cartridge firearms he shoots in this forum than in a smokeless forum.

Ed

[Don McDowell]

I have been reading lots of posts anbout different things and yesterday there was a discussion that included Trail Boss so i looked it up and it seems to be some what similar to Black Powder in that you can fill the case and shoot your round. I am working on some hand made cartridges for some old bolt action german rifles in odd metric calibers and was wondering if this powder would be an alternative to sooting BP.

Trailboss is an extremely fast burning smokeless powder that due to it's bulk makes it almost impossible for embasyls with reloading presses to blow their guns and themselves up....
It has NOT ONE DARN THING TO DO WITH BLACKPOWDER, THE PRESSURE'S IT GENERATES IS RIGHT AT THE SAAMI MAX, THE VELOCITY IT GENERATES IS AT BEST 2/3 OF WHAT BLACKPOWDER GIVES.

I really wish the half baked sob that started this trailboss is good blackpowder replacement could be found so that he could be the honored guest of a good ol fashion gunny sac party.

[Gunlaker]

I think that the stuff is mostly used by the "cowboy action" crowd for super low recoil, low energy loads. With that said I have used it in my .45-70 lever guns on occasion.

There are much better powders available for shooting loads that approximate black powder velocity. SR-4759 and AA-5744 for instance. And then there is this stuff called "black powder" that works really nicely.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

I have been reading lots of posts anbout different things and yesterday there was a discussion that included Trail Boss so i looked it up and it seems to be some what similar to Black Powder in that you can fill the case and shoot your round. I am working on some hand made cartridges for some old bolt action german rifles in odd metric calibers and was wondering if this powder would be an alternative to sooting BP.
When you first showed up ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=152434 ), you were asking about black powder and Pyrodex in this context.

I have begun a small collection of old german bolt action rifles and among them are two that i think i am going to shoot as black powder cartridges.
Now, you are wondering about Trailboss for use in those same applications.

If you really DO want to try black powder in those rifles, we are happy to share what we can to help you do that effectively. We might even be able to scrounge up extra information if we knew which chamberings you are looking at.

But, if you DO NOT want to use black powder I see no need to mess around with BP substitutes, either. Just pick the appropriate smokeless propellant and load your ammunition.

CM

[mdevlin53]

The cartridge i am working on is a variant of the 10.5x47r. The makers back then were not much on standars so it is kind of like making a round that is unique for my particular rifle. I plan to shoot this one with BP and this weekend i will make soe rounds now that i have figured out a way to seat the boolits. The write up i read said that if you filled a cartridge up the bullet seating depth it would be the max load for the bullet but then use 70% for a starting load. I was just wonding if the group at large regaurded it a an alternative to BP. seems like the anser is no by my count.
Just a note the rifles i am talking about were made at the time when smokless was just starting to come into its own and it seemed the dicussion back then is stll being carried on with proponents on both sides.

[mdevlin53]

here are the three cartridges i am working with
8.15x46r this i shoot with smokless 20gr of 3031
10.5x47r this i will shoot with 2f Goex (working on a load now)
9.3x48r havent decided yet

Seems the break point on these cartridges is about 9.5mm. smaller and the get smokless and larger the get BP. This last cartridge is in the vacinity of a 38-55 so i am going to do a little research and see which way i will go with it. Nothing says i can't load a box of each and see how it performs.

[405]

Put me in the NO camp. It is not a sub for BP and it is not even close to similar to BP. I love Trailboss and shoot a lot of it. But only in very specific applications in short, high expansion ratio cartridges. It is a VERY FAST powder that happens to be fluffy and very bulky. It's burn rate is similar to Bullseye & 700X. I agree with those who posted, "where in the world did the notion come from that it is some kind of substitute for BP?". You'd be much better off studying the ballistics of powders like 5744 if you feel comfortable using smokeless in your guns.

[JeffinNZ]

For what it is designed for TB is very good IMHO. Fullish cases for modest velocities. Perfect for the Cowboy shooting guys. For the rest of us boolit freaks I believe TB is too fast also. Bulk is good, metering reports are good, burn rate would be better at levels of H4227. I won't use it.

[mdevlin53]

Ok so trail boss was a passing thought and i see that it would be pretty limited in the rounds i am making so i am convinced.
What do you think about my third cartridge it is so close to a 38-55 ( with the exception that the groove dimention is .375 that it could be a near twin. The 38-55 was a BP round if i am not mistaken 38 diamiter and 55 grs of BP, at least when it was first made. What loads do you suggest or are we back to fill it press it and shoot it.

You know i am new to this so please dont be offended if i ask a question that has be asked before or may sound a little off topic.
Thanks for all the advice

[oldred]

Trail Boss is a terrible replacement for BP and in big cases you can (WILL!) exceed BP pressures waaaay before you even get close to to BP velocities! Go to Hodgdons data site and compare some Trail Boss loads, quite an eye opener for those that seem to think because Trail Boss is capable of only pop-gun velocities that it must also be doing so at very low pressure-not true! Trail Boss is NOT a BP sub!



One example of many examples of large cases and Trail Boss

45/70 Trapdoor loads

405 cast bullet they list the max for Trail Boss at a trapdoor load at 13 grains for only 1007 FPS at 25,600 CUP!

Compare that to Varget trap door loads at 1781 at 20,900 CUP or H4895 at 1645 at 18,900 CUP!

Trail Boss was producing 773 FPS LESS velocity at 4,700 CUP more pressure than Varget!


or how about,


That Trail Boss load to 3031, the same 405 grain cast bullet that Trail Boss pushes to only 1007 FPS at 25,600 CUP will run 1706 FPS at only 21,100 CUP with 3031! The MINIMUM 3031 load using that bullet is going 1597 FPS at 17,300 CUP! That's 590 FPS more velocity at 8,300 CUP LESS pressure than the same bullet with Trail Boss!



That's some whopping pressures in relation to the relatively low velocities it produces so the bottom line is if you're looking for BP pressures and velocities then BP may be the answer. There are other better suited smokeless powders than TB but unless you are looking to exceed BP performance then BP is most likely going to yield the most consistent results.

[daschnoz]

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

It's an interesting animal for sure - not as interesting as Unique, but still interesting.

[John Boy]

The cartridge i am working on is a variant of the 10.5x47R

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1304979224

Also would highly recommend the purchase of:
* Cartridges of the World
* Philip Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading
But you won't find Trail Boss in either of these references

[405]

Ok so trail boss was a passing thought and i see that it would be pretty limited in the rounds i am making so i am convinced.
What do you think about my third cartridge it is so close to a 38-55 ( with the exception that the groove dimention is .375 that it could be a near twin. The 38-55 was a BP round if i am not mistaken 38 diamiter and 55 grs of BP, at least when it was first made. What loads do you suggest or are we back to fill it press it and shoot it.

You know i am new to this so please dont be offended if i ask a question that has be asked before or may sound a little off topic.
Thanks for all the advice

No problem.
I shoot a couple of late BP era to early smokeless era 38-55s. You'll need to slug your bore to get some idea as to best bullet diameter. Generally for smokeless loads you'll want to size your bullet to at least groove diameter. For BP loads use very soft alloy and you can size your bullets a few thous less (you're relying on obturation to fill the grooves but how well that will work in your gun- no one knows).

Your assumption that the 38-55 means 38 cal with 55 gr BP. Well the 38 cal is pretty close but the 55 is not. The actual case capacity with a normal bullet seated to normal crimp groove for lever action firearms and slightly compressing the BP charge is closer to 40 gr.

For 38-55 smokeless loads I use a 250 grain gas checked bullet of about 10-11 BHN sized to .379-80 over either 17 gr of 5744 plus dacron filler or 17 gr Rel 7 plus dacron filler. Both loads produce velocities of about 1250 fps (roughly equivalent to standard BP loads). Both loads are well below even the Lyman starting loads for these powders and produce lower velocities as one would expect based on the Lyman data. I assume the pressures produced are likewise less than those recorded by the higher starting charges in the Lyman data. My load/data notes and accuracy notes show both loads as being about the best of all the smokeless loads tested.... in my 38-55s.

[Dumasron]

Re: Trail Boss

Your humble correspondent tried a recommended amount of TB in a 44mag Carbine
with cast bullet (250gr RN). The load was so anemic I had trouble hitting the chickens at
50 yds. so I junked the rest of the loads. It did work well in my Trapdoor where it gave adequate velocity, but mostly its not worth the trouble. Blows all over the bench while
your working with it also.

[hightime]

By the way Lyman max recomended was 5.8 gr. with a 250 gr cast .454 dia. I don't think anyone should fill the case with Trail Boss. There was not room for a double charge , but plenty room for too much.
Shooting Trail Boss was weird. A pretty good pop, but slow to the target , with a 24'' barrel. I think it's better use is for a pistol.

Owen

[oldred]

I think it's better use is for a pistol.Owen




You sure got that right!

How's this for a rifle load?

Min charge of Trail Boss for a 45/70 Trapdoor (485 grain cast) load is 8.0 gr at 699 FPS and 17,100 CUP, Max load of 10.0 gr gives a WHOPPING 804 FPS and 23,300 CUP! That same 23,000 CUP will yield over 1500 FPS with Benchmark and real BP will give at least 50% more velocity at less pressure than the Trail Boss, IMO why bother with the stuff in a rifle?

[Mike Brooks]

My shootin' pard was shooting TB in his 45-70 @ 100 yards. I swear I could do a back flip before the bullet finally hit the back board! That was with the high end load too!:takinWiz:

[dagger dog]

I may have missed it in the previous posts but Trailboss is not to be compressed, the old BP practice of filling the case, is just the oppisite of Trailboss instructions !

[9.3X62AL]

Ross Seyfried has recommended the use of IMR-4198 as a replacement fuel for The Holy Black in cartridge arms as follows--take the nominal blackpowder load weight of the cartridge in question, E.G. the 44-40 WCF (40 grains). Multiply that weight by 0.4 (40.0 x 0.4 = 16.0) 16.0 grains of IMR-4198 shoulde yield ballistics close to those of the blackpowder load using standard-weight boolits.

I have tried this formula with the 25-20, 32-20, 44-40, and 45-70 and Mr. Seyfried's predicted results were consistent with my own in terms of velocity given.

I haven't used Trail Boss as a BP substitute. It's OK for revolver rounds, but doesn't offer anything that other powders don't already provide.