20 Ga/600 Nitro Express wannabee

[nfg]

Deleted

[429421Cowboy]

Pictures! Oh boy do we ever love pictures:lol: Awesome project, one day i hope to build a rifle along those lines, very interested in this thread.

[JJC]

I'm interested in something like you have here. I was looking at brass hulls loaded with BP and a round ball. I have not done all the research yet but it seems like people don't advise brass and to go with plastic hulls? Any advise? Thanks, John

[Oren]

Thanks for posting. I was thinking I might need a rifled 20 ga. You got me thinkin', not always a good thing...

[JJC]

Nfg the interest is there. Thanks for sharing. Is there a book out there that goes over any brass shotshell reloading? I have a few magazines and the double gun journal I'm going over now. I wanted to do something different rather than slugs and wads. That may be in the future though. Dies are expensive I wonder if I could get away with with the RCBS 12 ga die. It sizes, decaps and roll crimps. $71 vs $198 for a set. Seems like drop the powder, put in a few fiber wads seat the ball and have at it? Test and find your charge. John

[JJC]

Again....there is nothing hard about reloading, but it is a dangerous thing to do if you go about doing it haphazardly and without due caution AND knowledge. That aint no kidding! Thanks for the pointers.

[Multigunner]

I was given a sack full of reloaded 12 gauge shells by an aquaintance. I mentioned these to a mutual friend and his first remark was "ever wonder how he lost that eye and little finger?"
I thought about it, a full minute, then cut up the shells and dumped them.

[turbo1889]

I don't shoot other peoples loads in my guns. Many people I won't shoot their loads in their guns.

When I give out loading information based on my own personal experience it is always "loading suggestions" it is not "loading data". Heck of a difference between the two. Every once in a while I make more of a suggestion, in those cases it goes something along the lines of "&#$%@ - NO!!!". Kind of like the time I mentioned as a "loading suggestion" that in the 7.62x25 cartridge you can load almost any weight of bullet or boolit (as in jacketed or cast lead) from 85gr. weight to 135gr. weight by setting the load up so that with the bullet seated to a depth such that the cartridge over all length was the same as a military ball ammo load the resulting case capacity under the boolit when completely filled up with IMR-4227 powder that was lightly compressed would produce a load that was accurate and pleasant to shoot and was under maximum load pressure by about 10-K to 5-K. One of those situations with nearly a perfectly balanced load such that as a heavier boolit that is seated more deeply is used it reduces the powder capacity of the case just the right amount if you use a particular powder to make the resulting charge correct for the boolit weight. About a month after I posted that I got someone asking me if the same thing would work with Bullseye powder in that same cartridge - my response was rather abrupt to say the least considering that a full case load of Bullseye in that cartridge with almost any commonly available bullet weight would blow up just about every gun ever built for it with the possible exception of the Polish folding carbine guns which have a very heavy breach block that when combined with their simple blow back action might allow them to survive such an ill conceived load.

What annoys me the most is some people who want to cross compare entirely different powders and/or cartridges. In some cartridges a full case compressed load of 2400 powder like those 44-mag. loads were loaded with would be both safe and sane, even prudent and a good load recipe. The 44-mag is not one of those cartridges though and what works for one cartridge or one powder doesn't necessary wash over to another.

Yet there will still be the idiots who try to transfer what works with one powder or one cartridge over to another powder or cartridge and expect it to work there as well. And you will also have the other side of the idiot spectrum that will go nuts when you suggest a full case compressed load of 2400 in a particular cartridge with a particular bullet weight which is perfectly safe and sane in that cartridge with that bullet weight saying they knew someone one time who made up some loads exactly like that in a totally different cartridge such as the 44-mag and it locked up the gun and the cylinder had to be removed and the cases hammered out of the chambers with a rod and mallet and therefor all such loads in all cartridges are bad loads and anyone trying to figure out a 100% powder capacity load that is safe and sane is wrong because no such loads exist.

As soon as you think you have idiot proofed something ~ they come out with a better idiot. And that isn't even counting the idiots who want to tar and feather and boil in oil those of us who would dare to ever consider loading a combination not found in a loading manual.

[filthygovmploye]

Pictures! Oh boy do we ever love pictures:lol: Awesome project, one day i hope to build a rifle along those lines, very interested in this thread.

amen! or it didnt happn!!!

[missionary5155]

I'm interested in something like you have here. I was looking at brass hulls loaded with BP and a round ball. I have not done all the research yet but it seems like people don't advise brass and to go with plastic hulls? Any advise? Thanks, John

Good morning
I found WW 12 guage plastic hulls will hold together for two shots of RB with 135 grains of 2F in my FoxB . Some come apart on the third firing. All exibit at least burn through in the wall area about the base wad area. Other thicker hulls obviously should last longer.
Mike in Peru till June.

[35remington]

nfg, just a gentle comment, but....

As I recall, the shotguns have considerably weaker frames than the rifles, being made of different material.

Perhaps, just perhaps, running a shotgun at nearly 70 percent higher pressures than it is designed for over the long haul (20,000 psi versus 12,000 psi) isn't terribly wise.

I know you claim you aren't getting "rifle level" pressures, but you're running the gun at well past its standard operating levels.

Perhaps, just perhaps, a gun normally used at 12,000 psi should be kept at that level.

Radical thought, this idea of keeping the gun's pressure level where it is intended? I don't think so. Since the gun hinges at the bottom, and does not lock at the top, it tends to "hinge open" slightly when backward give exceeds design. And you're admittedly exceeding it by quite a bit.

Whether what you're doing for long term use is advisable is something that is very arguable.

Perhaps you should tell the manufacturer of your trials and ask for advice. Or that of a reputable gunsmith.

Most firearms are not regularly run past their working standards quite this much. Maybe you shouldn't be quite this enthusiastic about loading for a gun that has a normal working limit this far below what you're doing.

Simple common sense.

FWIW.

[35remington]

Note that all the 20 gauge guns are SB-1's. The 20 gauge frame you're running should be held to no more than the level that you caution is for "an 870 or a Mossy" and quite frankly I very highly doubt either of those two manufacturers would counsel running their guns 33 percent over the SAAMI limit regularly (12,000 versus your "recommended" 16,000 psi) or that NEF would be thrilled that you're running an SB1 frame with loads that develop 75 percent more pressure than its standard working levels.

You are running a shotgun frame (SB1) at past proof levels for multiple shots.

Not good.

[35remington]

"One thing IS a fact, the SB-1 receiver AND barrel are plenty strong for the level I stopped at,......."

(Which is over 21,000 psi, 75 percent more than the normal limit for the 20 gauge)

By whose estimation? Yours? This is certainly not shared by the manufacturer.

Another misconception:

The limiting factor, in this case, IS the receiver. Because it is not up to the heat treating of the stronger variants.

Please lay off these loads in the NEF 20 gauge SB1 frame. This is not advisable, nor is it "print worthy" on this forum without challenge.

What you are doing must be questioned as potentially unsafe as a service to any potential readers of this thread.

Just being reasonable. Hope you can see that.

[roberto mervicini]

[QUOTE=nfg;1698337This 20 ga H&R USH might go to 2200 fs with RMC brass but that is near 30KPSI. I will start with the RMC brass in a few days, I need to make a taper crimper and an expander...the recoil is in the 80 ftlbs right now so...????....I might just wuss out also.:groner:

A proper 600 NE will hit 2250 fs with a 900 gr bullet and 10,000 plus ftlbs but few can handle the 150-180 ftlbs recoil.[/QUOTE]

Hello NFG,
I enjoy your article, just one word of caution.... carefull with heavy recoil, could detach the retina...!!!
Regards
Roberto

[35remington]

Loading to an "estimated" 30,000 psi in this SB1 action would be pure foolishness.

Putting the SB1 shotgun that is the topic of this thread in the same strength class as a Savage 210 is most obviously a mistake.

Crediting this same shotgun with "greater strength" than a Mossberg or Remington is also extremely questionable, which makes attaining the "estimated" levels of pressure in this thread, which are, after all, only estimates, something that should most definitely be avoided.

If sufficient knowledge truly was in the possession of the original poster the featured shotgun would never have been subject to this type of load development.

It is simply not a good idea. For anyone.

[turbo1889]

Okay ~ A good long loud full lung depth sigh out of me before I post.




First, I use the NEF-USH guns as test guns with a pressure trace system hooked up to them which allows me to obtain chamber pressure traces with home equipment that is more precise with a better resolution then the old lead and copper crusher systems not to mention full pressure curve capture capabilities not just peak chamber pressure.

My 12ga. NEF-USH gage sensor equipped test gun is the standard shotgun receiver because, and only because, the USH 12ga. uses a wider width 10ga. size receiver that is not compatible with the NEF rifle receivers.

My 20ga. NEF-USH gage sensor equipped test gun uses an NEF rifle receiver with the 20ga. USH barrel fitted to it through the NEF accessory barrel purchase program where you send in your receiver to have an alternate barrel fitted to the receiver just like the original rifle barrel was fitted.


In My Personal First Hand Experience with My Guns:

My 12ga. test gun which does not use the rifle receiver but uses the wider 10ga. shotgun receiver is capable of and has on more then one occasion sustained and contained what I consider grossly over-pressure and potentially dangerous pressure levels for a shotgun in excess of 30-K.


My 20ga. test gun which does use a rifle receiver has also sustained loads in excess of 30-K but that is not really a surprise to me compared to the non-rifle receiver on the 12ga. test-gun.

None of these were deliberate overloads but rather experimental load combinations gone way wrong. Some were delayed ignition hang fire events and some were what I have come to personally call "thermal shock" events which is an interesting phenomenon I have encountered with certain slower burning powders when the shell is chilled to sub-zero temperatures and then test fired while cold. I have more recently began as a matter of course testing loads not only at room temperature but also chilling them to -40 degrees and heating them to +125 degrees F to confirm particular load combinations are safe not only in the "normal" temperature range band but also in extreme cold and heat. Almost all loads I have encountered develop higher pressures at +125 degrees F and that is to be expected. But some powders combined with some primers will also give high pressure results at -40 degrees as well. In a few cases extremely aggressive and violent pressure spikes that are beyond that encountered +125 degrees F.

I am by no means suggesting or encouraging someone to deliberately load loads that are up to 30-K pressure levels in a 12ga. NEF-USH or even to do loading testing in a 12ga. NEF-USH actually holding the fire-arm. Even with a very strongly built gun like the NEF-USH a shielded remote fire test stand should be used. My test stand is built with old car tires filled with sand for the inner layer and a 1/4" plate steel outer shield that is open in the front and bottom but not the sides top or back so that if per chance any shrapnel should get through the sand filled tires the 1/4" plate steel will prevent it from going in any direction other then down range or down into the ground.

As to what range of pressures I am trying to develop loads to. That would bet 8-K to 12-K for 2-3/4" and 3" shells. I usually like to develop the load so that it develops 10-K to 11-K under normal conditions and does not exceed 12-K in the low and high temperature thermal stress tests. For 3-1/2" shells in the 12ga. and the same thing as a wild-cat combination in the 20ga. you can basically just add and additional 2-K of pressure to those numbers.

I do not have a personal problem with some people loading and developing loads up to the 20-K pressure levels in strong hulls to be used in strong guns. In my personal experience that includes the NEF-USH guns in both the 12ga. and 20ga. PLEASE NOTE: I did not say that I do so myself or that I encourage others to do so. I said I did not have a personal problem with it. So long as you stay at under 20-K pressure levels I won't try to verbally "tar and feather" and "boil you in oil" on this or any other forum. Personally I have more concern about the ability of some of the bolt action slug guns out there to take those pressure levels then I do the NEF-USH guns. That is based off of my personal experience with those guns equipped with pressure trace sensors. I own several of each in both the 12ga. and 20ga. versions. I have not used a 20ga. on a shotgun frame as a test gun which has been subjected to 30-K or greater pressure levels since my sensor equipped 20ga. test gun uses a rifle frame. I do routinely use 3-1/2" 20ga. loads (wild-cat) at pressure levels in the 13-K pressure range in my hunting guns two of which are not built on rifle frames and that is not firing them in a shielded remote test firing set-up but right up against me cheek when I pull the trigger and think nothing of it.

[turbo1889]

Another thing I forgot to mention. You don't need to exceed design pressure limits to develop high performance loads. With slower burning powders that give a long low pressure burn you can push an amazing amount of weight to some pretty impressive velocity levels without exceeding conventional shotgun pressure limits. The OP of this thread is using a powder that is considerably slower burning then anything normally used in a 20ga. gun. It is not a powder I have personally used but I have used powders both slightly faster burning and slower burning to develop performance loads while staying within pressure limits.

Using my experience with both faster and slower burning powders then the OP is using and the performance levels I am able to obtain staying within conventional shotgun pressure limits I do believe he is operating at higher pressure levels but I wouldn't know for sure how high unless I were to duplicate and test fire some of the loads he is using in my pressure trace sensor equipped test gun. Something I wouldn't mind doing and have noted some of his info for potentially doing that in the future but I've got a lot of other stuff going on that is a lot further up the line on my priority list.

[nfg]

I deleted this data...that way no one can misundersand, misrepresent, read something into what isn't there, or do something out of the ordinary and WAY beyond most reloader/gunsmiths or get anyone that can't understand the simplicity of this project hurt in any way.

I've expended all the energy I intend to replying to that which wasn't understood and to those who have no concept that this project was in no way dangerous and the loads were well within the strength parameters of the H&R USH.

As usual, faulty logic and incorrect information won the day...you are politicians favorite meal, and another example of the mindlessness of the internet.

[Smoke73]

Well thanks for saving my life 35remington. Seen my life flash before my eyes. That was close. Back to Walmart. But seriously, sorry you deleted your info nfg. This was my new favorite thread. I almost understand peoples logic and then I remember the Marlin 1895's, Ruger Super Blackhawks, WW greeners Etc Etc Etc.

[turbo1889]

I tried my best to give a measured sensible response in your defense nfg while still acknowledging potential risks. But as usual one bad apple who is a member of the vicious "reloading book religion" that is akin to Fundamentalist Islamist or Inqusition Era Roman Catholics wrecked it for everyone else. They all persecute those who dare to not follow the teachings of their religious book(s) to the letter.

I understand why you deleted your posts. Although I kind of wish you had at least left the pictures they were cool to look at. Please realize I understand what you were doing and I supported it with a reasonable dose of caution thrown in to temper things for others who might decide to do this at home themselves. Nothing is more obnoxious to me then those who make blind assertions with religious fervor without evidence to back it up especially when there is known hard evidence to direct contrary of their faith based assertions based on nothing more then religious fervor.

The reloading book religious is real and it is a violent and fundamentalist faith, I have personally witnessed a case of direct physical assault and battery where two men literally not figuratively nearly beat another smaller man senseless at a shooting range because he was reloading on the bench with a Lee loader by simply filling the cases up with powder not weighing it or measuring it except for using the case as the measure. Only the muzzle of my rifle brought them back to their senses and cause them to cease and desist and returned order back to the situation until the cops arrived and charged them and took them into custody.

The gun was a 30-30. The powder was IMR-4350. The boolits were some 150 grain commercial cast boolits. He was using a Lee loader to load that combination on the bench and he was just filling the cases up with powder and not weighing it or measuring it with a dipper.

Anyone with half a brain and the ability to reason can make an assessment as to whether or not that is a safe load or not and whether or not it is possible to put enough of that powder in that case with that weight of boolit to cause a problem or not. Granted even when I load 100% case capacity loads I figure out how much that is and precisely measure that amount for consistency alone so his method of loading would indeed not be preferable in my mind. But it presented no hazard to me or others as a bystander considering the combination he was using. But that didn't matter to those two worthless thugs, he had violated the sacred tenants of their religion and they attacked, physically and literally.

[Smoke73]

That's quite a story Turbo. Very unfortunate but quite believable. in this day and age the experts abound.

This is why I more often than not shoot at home. Free to blow myself to smithereens or develop sensibly to share with those trusted few. Pity.

[35remington]

"Bad apple?" Hardly. Pointing out the incredibly obvious in terms of safe load development and action strength assessment makes me a thinking member of the forum and nothing more.

If I can think of this, and the OP is such an expert, why did he not see it as well?

Smoke, you're quite welcome, and yes, I got the significance. Still, pointing this out is doing a number of people favors.

First; no problem with developing shotgun equivalent pressures in a shotgun action....which is what the discussed SB1 is. Not the stronger SB2.

That is, actual shotgun equivalent pressures. Not estimated.

Second, the obviousness of choosing an action.....and by extension, a shell, which is capable of safely containing the pressures generated, especially when they are only estimated, cannot be overstressed.

The OP is using the weakest hinge opening action NEF makes to develop considerably more powerful experimental handloads, using estimated pressures, and further wishes to push the envelope from a 75 percent increase over standard pressure (estimated 21,000 psi, and plans to later push this to 30,000 estimated psi). The stated intentions have been to head toward 5 and 6 thousand foot pounds.

Using their weakest action?

Not smart.

Mistakes in action strength assessment have clearly been made.

This thread is not a role model for good judgement. The posts are most assuredly better off deleted. No question.

This is NOT the "inquisition." It is merely pointing out when things are not well advised for public display without refutation.

[skeettx]

When my son was in high school and he and his buddies would go prarie dog hunting, they would burn up lots of ammo.
I gave him a Rem 700 BDL Varmint in 6mm and a press and set of dies set to the press and cases, bullets (75 grain), primers (Rem 7 1/2), and a bunch of 4831 with the promise that when he ran out of primers, bullets or powder, he would only come to me for resupply.
He would fill up the case and seat a bullet.
Shoot and shoot and reload and reload,
What fun, what fun
Mike