So many variables-where to start?

[coverbw]

I have a S&W 629-1 that i have been trying like hell to turn into a cast shooter. I fire lapped the barrel so no constrictions. The barrel is .430 and the throats measure .433. The largest sizer die I can find was a .431. I have been using a 44-245 RCBS mould with ok results. I thought a gas checked bullet would help the large throat issue so I bought a lyman 429215 mould.

The load: BHN 11 alloy sized .431, carnuba red lube, hornady gc, 21 grs of 2400.

I shot one cylinder full and couldn't believe the leading. I was getting ribbons of lead on a tight patch! This is my first time trying a gas checked bullet and this is by far the most leading i have experienced. I was thought a gas check helped to reduce leading, where did I go wrong? There are so many variables to lead bullet shooting it gets overwhelming!

:groner:


Thanks for any insight

[runfiverun]

try 2 grs less 2400.
if you want that speed go to h-110

[rintinglen]

What size are your boolits after sizing? You may not be getting the size you think you are. It sounds very much as if your boolits are are undersized for your gun, yet according to the info you provide, you ought to be just fine. Check the diameter of your boolits after sizing and lubing them and see if they are really .431 or not. Although I personally haven't been the victim, a lot of guys whose opinions I respect have reported getting Lyman molds that cast way on the small side. It may be that you have fallen afoul of the tiny Lyman cutter.

[subsonic]

Definitely double check your sizing operation to make sure you are over bore diameter.
Try a harder alloy or heat treat your alloy.
The gas check is not a cure-all - but it helps.

[David LaPell]

I think you might be using bullets that are too soft. Try something that it is around 14-18 BHN with those velocities.

[44man]

Too soft. Slump and skid. Gas leakage.
I got the RCBS to shoot at 28 to 30 bhn.
Size means nothing if the alloy is turned to putty.

[bobthenailer]

I picked up another S&W 629 awhile back and it did not shoot very well with bullets sized @ my normal .430 dia . I used a pin guage to measure my cylinder throats [make sure you clean throats throughly before checking] and they mesured .433. i beagled a mould and cast some bullets to .433 dia and pan lubed them to try ! Bingo my group sizes were cut by better than half. I then ordered a .433 sizer from LATHSMITH and all is well in 44 mag land

[Larry Gibson]

What BHN 11 alloy?

Larry Gibson

[coverbw]

Thanks for all the responses guys! Larry: I'm using a 96/2/2 alloy. I guess I was expecting too much out of the gas check... This is my first time using a gc design and I thought the lead could be softer because the gas check would protect it. I'll try toning the loads down a bit...

The bullets are sizing correctly to .431. The largest .44 sizer die i could find for my rcbs sizer is the .431. Is the gas check going to help me at all with the oversized .433 throats or do I need to go with pan lubed bullets and a .434 mould? Does it stress the firearm to have the barrel sizing the bullets down .004" on a mid or higher pressure load?

Thanks again!

[williamwaco]

Your measurements sound like they should work.

I suspect you are "re" sizing your bullets during the seating process.
Pull a seated bullet and mike it. ( Micrometer ) - not calilper. )

Depending on the expander and or crimping die. bullets are sometimes swaged down in diameter in the case before firing.


.

[subsonic]

Your measurements sound like they should work.

I suspect you are "re" sizing your bullets during the seating process.
Pull a seated bullet and mike it. ( Micrometer ) - not calilper. )

Depending on the expander and or crimping die. bullets are sometimes swaged down in diameter in the case before firing.


.

+1

The softer the alloy and tighter the case neck tension, the more likely this is.

I think harder alloy will fix it though.

[Frank]

coverbw:

The load: BHN 11 alloy sized .431, carnuba red lube, hornady gc, 21 grs of 2400.

You've got to be kidding. You're shooting a 44 mag with a load like that and your bullet hardness is only 11? C'mon, man! Harden those bullets and report back.

:coffeecom

[MtGun44]

I get fine results with as soft as 8 BHN in a Keith at 1400 fps in .44 mag and more than that
in .357 Mag. without a GC. 11 BHN will be fine if you have a good design and proper
fit, and lube. I normally use air cooled wwts at about 14 BHN, but some range lead
is 8 BHN so I tried it and it works pretty much the same for me.

FIT, then design (never liked either of the Thompson .44 designs because they never have
worked well for me, and I finally got past the GC thing) and then good lube. I've never
tried carnuba red, so I would suggest you try LBT soft blue or NRA 50-50 as a known
good starting point. Might be the lube, definitely does not help to have an undersized
boolit. GCs are not magic, and IME are never necessary for pistols.

.431 in .433 throats is not optimum, but should be OK. You will likely find better accy
with .433 boolits. Do check that the case is not sizing down the boolit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=929

Bill

[Mk42gunner]

I firmly believe that the boolit has to fit the throats. Here is what I would do:

Beagle the mold to get at least a .433" boolit. Cast a few to try, then either pan or hand lube them and see if the larger diameter helps.

If it does, then look into lappping your sizing die out, or getting a custom one.

Conventional wisdom says to only change one thing at a time, or else you won't know what fixed the problem.

Robert

[44man]

.430" boolit out of .4324" throats at 200 yards.

[HDS]

coverbw:

You've got to be kidding. You're shooting a 44 mag with a load like that and your bullet hardness is only 11? C'mon, man! Harden those bullets and report back.

:coffeecom

It worked for Elmer Keith didn't it?

[Larry Gibson]

coverbw

That alloy should work fine with that load. The sizing is ok also. I, like 44man, get excellent accuracy with .430 sized bullets in larger throats. I went many years blissfully sizing at 429 and got the same accuracy. Anyways I use GC'd bullets with very good results, even the Thompson designs.

What I suggest is another lube. Now CR is a good lube but it is a hard lube and many times needs more velocity that what your getting to lube effectively. A softer lube like Javelina or BAC is what I recommend trying. You might also start at 18.5 gr 2400 and work back up in 1/2 gr increments.

If you still get leading then the alloy isn't right. I'd start with COWWs and ad 2% tin to them, let them AC for 10 days and try them. They will be plenty hard enough. If that works with no leading then add 30% lead to the WW + 2% tin. If that works then add another 20% lead for a WW + 2% tin + 50% lead alloy. If that works you are set. I use that alloy a lot in my .44s with the 429244 and 429640 GC'd bullets. I also use it with the 358156 in my .357, the 410610 in my .41 Mag and the 452490 in my .45 AR/Colts. That alloy is also my go to alloy for rifle hunting bullets and I push then to 2200+ fps.

Larry Gibson

[coverbw]

Once again thanks for the feedback!

LARRY: I ordered some BAC lube so I'll give that a spin along with a reduced charge of 2400.

MTGUN44: Thanks for the insight on your loads. I have been pounding this same alloy out of my GP100 and SP101 4" with NOE's 360429 plain base design with minimal leading. That's why I was so stunned with the leading in the 44.

Mk42gunner: My rcbs 44-245 drops bullets at .433 so I'll try pan lubing some of these unsized.

44man: I'd take that group at 25 yards!

William/subsonic/rintinglen: I'll pull a bullet on the next batch and mic it.

Thanks again guys!

[44man]

Once again thanks for the feedback!

LARRY: I ordered some BAC lube so I'll give that a spin along with a reduced charge of 2400.

MTGUN44: Thanks for the insight on your loads. I have been pounding this same alloy out of my GP100 and SP101 4" with NOE's 360429 plain base design with minimal leading. That's why I was so stunned with the leading in the 44.

Mk42gunner: My rcbs 44-245 drops bullets at .433 so I'll try pan lubing some of these unsized.

44man: I'd take that group at 25 yards!

William/subsonic/rintinglen: I'll pull a bullet on the next batch and mic it.

Thanks again guys!
I admit it kind of amazed me too because I was just doing a drop test.
However when I had the scoped SRH, I was able to hit pop cans at 200 from bags. I have done that with all of my BFR's including the .500 JRH with Ultra Dots.
My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards with my 45-70 BFR.
There are a few things a revolver needs but there are so many things that mean nothing at all.
I found sitting at the bench, elbows on the bench and your head in your hands while just staring at the bench top, can let you figure things out better then reading all kinds of printed junk. Stay away from gun rags because fellas here know more.
My goal has always been to make it easy, never hard.
The best cast boolit shooters are right here so don't get frantic or out of sorts.
The hunk of lead you hold in your hand will do it all if you do not ruin it when you shoot it.

[David LaPell]

I was getting very good accuracy out of my 358156 HP's with a BHN of 12 out past 1,200 fps (I had to check the records). It sounds like you may have the issue worked out ok and that upon further review its more the size of your bullets than the hardness of them.

[handloder]

I'll throw one more log on the fire. The source of the 96/2/2 alloy isn't mentioned. There is the possibility that the alloy batch (or a dirty casting pot) is producing boolits with nasty contaminants (not necessarily visible) that can aggravate leading. Be sure the alloy is clean (well fluxed) before casting. If contaminants are part of the problem, try casting/fluxing at a higher temperature to force the crud (aluminum, zinc, silicon, etc) into the dross.

[coverbw]

UPDATE!

I switched to BAC lube and dropped down to 18.5 grains of 2400. Mo better! I shot 3 cylinders full and then pushed a tight patch through with Kroil. Very little leading. Only a little bit just ahead of the forcing cone. Accuracy was very good as well. I put a scope on my 629 to check accuracy. I personally have a hell of a time shooting "groups" with a pistol. I can put cans, clay pigeons, etc out there and bust them all day. But shooting groups off the bench is a whole different story....

handloder: I'm using lead I bought off blammer. I was actually shocked how shiny the bullets came out. They look like werewolf killers! I have been shooting a 360429 hollow point bullet in my 357 and they mushroom perfect! Good stuff.

William/subsonic/rintinglen: I seated a bullet and then pulled it out so see if they are being swagged down. I come up with .0004 smaller. This was without crimping the bullet. (i'm assuming this is the correct way to measure)



I'm going to work the charge up and see where I can go with it.

Once again, thanks for all the input you guys!!!:D