Linotype at handgun velocities

[mart]

I am sure this subject has been discussed many times but a search turned up about equal numbers of opinions on whether linotype is going to shatter at handgun velocities, 1200fps.

I bought 1000 pounds of linotype from a print shop about 15 years ago. We even brought it, along with about that much wheel weight lead and pure lead, to Alaska when we moved up here ten years ago. My wife thought I was crazy, maybe I was but I hated to part with it.

I just picked up a Ruger Redhawk 4 inch 45 Colt after pining for it for two years. It's off to a smith right now getting the cylinder throat dimension corrected so it will shoot cast bullets. I plan on it being my carry gun for those times when I do not wish to carry a rifle.

I am looking for some input on linotype as a bullet at 1200 fps. My Redhawk will easily kick a 300-325 grain cast bullet out at that velocity and experience with my 41 mag with linotype has been limited to one cougar, one whitetail doe, and a handful of coyotes. No bullets were ever recovered and the entrance and exit wounds looked pretty much the same, like a rod had been punched through side to side. Should I expect a linotype bullet to penetrate deeply through muscle and bone at 1200 fps or is it likely to shatter on the big bones of a grizzly or moose?

I'll have a mold made once I determine what bullet my Redhawk likes and I need to settle on an alloy. Bullet expansion is not my goal with this bullet, penetration is. Any advice and experience you can share would be much appreciated. Thank you.

Mart

[williamwaco]

No, It is not going to shatter at handgun velocities.

It is a collosal waste of raw materials though to use it straight..

You should be mixing it at least 50/50 with scrap lead. even 25lt/75 scrap lead would make good bullets.


I have used it occasionally in handgun and .30 to .375 caliber rifles. It is way harder than necessary.




.

[Larry Gibson]

No, It is not going to shatter at handgun velocities.

It is a collosal waste of raw materials though to use it straight..

You should be mixing it at least 50/50 with scrap lead. even 25lt/75 scrap lead would make good bullets.


I have used it occasionally in handgun and .30 to .375 caliber rifles. It is way harder than necessary.

It is a collosal waste of raw materials though to use it straight..

+!.

Larry Gibson

[mart]

Will the 50/50 alloy provide the performance of a solid that I am seeking? As to the waste of materials I don't plan to cast that many straight linotype, enough to zero the load and to carry while afield. The rest of the loads will be wheel weight bullets for practice. Thanks.

Mart

[rexherring]

Read an article in an old Handloader mag about a caped buffalo hunt with a .45 LC in a 5 shot cylinder Blackhawk. He use straight lino 340 grainers at about 1450 fps and recovered a boolit after hitting bone. It didn't shatter and wasn't even deformed much. Two of his shots exited the buf.

The mule deer I've shot have been with about a 50/50 of WW and lead at about 1150 or so. Work great, penetrate well and hold together. Not much deformation unless it hits a big bone. One deer I hit was straight on and the boolit was just under the hide in it's rump. Full length penetration almost.

[mart]

I believe that might of been a Ross Seyfried article. He's one of my favorite writers. I think he referred to that revolver as his short 458. I had forgotten he was using straight linotype on that hunt. Thanks.

Mart

[rexherring]

Yes that was it, it's been awhile since I read it so my memory on the specifics is fuzzy. (funny how age does that)


I believe that might of been a Ross Seyfried article. He's one of my favorite writers. I think he referred to that revolver as his short 458. I had forgotten he was using straight linotype on that hunt. Thanks.

Mart

[ShooterAZ]

Lino is some sweet stuff. It casts the most beautiful boolits I have ever seen. I do agree though, perhaps a waste of raw material. Mixed 1/1 with pure lead gives you "hardball", which will also cast beautiful boolits, and is plenty hard for hunting.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Dad was a printer and the first 10 years i cast it was all i had.i used in in magnum handguns with no problems.I sure wish i would have saved it. bet i am down to 1500#

George

[x101airborne]

Well, I guess I am of another pool here, how is it a waste if that is what you have on hand? We all try to make do with less, but dont enjoy the benefits of a lucky strike. No doubt, I like a softer alloy and would save that lino for mixing, but lino around here is as rare as hens teeth. Dont expect any deformation and no, I dont think it will shatter till about 2000 fps, so I think you are good. Iff'n it's what you got, enjoy it. Or trade some for pure at about 1 lino to 2 pure or 1 lino to 4 scrap. I know lots of people would take you up on that.

[L Ross]

I keep saving my lino and saving my lino ever since 1970's. Someday guys will be fighting over my stash in my estate. Shoot it up and enjoy it.

Duke

[mart]

x101airborne,

I'm pretty well set for WW and pure lead. I have about 900#'s each of lino and WW and around 500#'s pure lead.

In 15 years I've only used 100#'s of the orignal linotyp I bought and about a third of that is still in cast but not loaded bullets. At this rate I'll be 173 before I use it all up.[smilie=p:

Mart

[missionary5155]

Good morning and Happy May Day..
To me there are numerous questions I have to answer. What mix will effectively seal the throat area at the pressure I am loading with what burn rate powder. What mix is going to make the transition from cylinder to barrel and still be square to the bore. What mix is going to be the most effective on target once it finally gets there. In a hunting sernario leading in the barrel is a minor factor but usually gets taken care of.
Had to go back to read the caliber and need.. 45 Colt. Have shot 19 + grains of 2400 in my RBH's using all sorts of mixes ranging from 25% WW and 75% range scrap up to WD WW using 255 - 300. With a properly throated RBH they all shot without any problems. The softest gets well twisted making the forcing cone transition and does leave some deposits but really expands well on ribs. 50-50 or anything close is possibly the best all around as it does not leave messy streaks and still will expand some up close. As this is to be a protection load 50-50 is what I would want. WDWW will shatter at 10 yards on railroad steel. I would consider bone a bit softer than steel plate but I want my missle to get to where it is needed and 50-50 will do that. Elephants were popped for years with 20-1 lead and tin. 50-50 is far harder than that and I dought any bear will have a thicker bone mass than an elephant.
Issue I see is if I would be prepared to hold fire to under 20 yards.. I do not want a wounded bear thumping me. It is already motivated and hopefully not too mad.
This is actually where I want a 12 guage pump loaded with round ball 50-50 and at least 135 grains of 2F. That sudden smokescreen just may let me sidestep and put one through an ear canal or shoulders as that monster passes.
Mike in Peru

[onesonek]

Read an article in an old Handloader mag about a caped buffalo hunt with a .45 LC in a 5 shot cylinder Blackhawk. He use straight lino 340 grainers at about 1450 fps and recovered a boolit after hitting bone. It didn't shatter and wasn't even deformed much. Two of his shots exited the buf.



I believe that might of been a Ross Seyfried article. He's one of my favorite writers. I think he referred to that revolver as his short 458. I had forgotten he was using straight linotype on that hunt. Thanks.

Mart


In a phone conversation with Veral Smith discussing molds, Ross Seyfried's hunt came up. As it sounds, Veral was the instigator for Ross using the hangun with cast boolits of lino.

[badbob454]

somebody please explain why a ruger super redhawk needs to be throat-ed, i have been shooting cast in my 454 casull for years ? am i missing something ? /
also if you have lino shoot it i do recommend something softer , to ease the work of the forcing cone and to seal via bullet obturation , im still asleep hope this makes sense

[mart]

somebody please explain why a ruger super redhawk needs to be throat-ed, i have been shooting cast in my 454 casull for years ? am i missing something ? /
also if you have lino shoot it i do recommend something softer , to ease the work of the forcing cone and to seal via bullet obturation , im still asleep hope this makes sense

I would be happy to explain that. First of all it's a Redhawk not a Super Redhawk. I could be wrong but I don't think the Super Redhawk was ever chambered in 45 Colt. My bore is .452 and the throats all ran around .4515 with a couple going .4513. It shot cast bullets horribly. I am having it opened up to .4525. It is quite common for 45 Colt chamber throats in Rugers to be undersized. From what I understand the Super Redhawks in 454 don't suffer the same fate of undersize throats as the Redhawks and Blackhawks in 45 Colt. Seems to be a malady common to 45 Colts and not just to Rugers.

I've had and been exposed to a few revolvers with undersized throats and none of them shot cast bullets well. I have every confidence that my Redhawk will shoot cast bullets fine when I get the cylinder back. I will run some tests with my Ransom Rest to eliminate the me factor from the bullet testing.

I don't anticipate sending a lot of linotype down the barrel. I imagine my load development and practice will be primarily with WW's with enough linotype load work to establish a good load and zero the sights. I plan to carry the Redhawk loaded with linotype bullets when I feel the need for a firearm but don't want to carry a rifle. I participate in a float ministry as a raft pilot, like to bird hunt and fish a fair amount. A rifle just gets in the way in all those activities. I shoot a 28 gauge while bird hunting and even if they offered slugs for it would be less then confident in their use against large bears.

I carried my Blackhawk 41 magnum for years but never liked the 6.5 inch barrel for the activities listed. I like a shorter barrel. To me a packing handgun is 5.5" or less in barrel length. I drooled over the 4 inch Redhawk in 45 Colt since it was offered. The gun, the money and I all happened to come together at the same time and place recently.

Now it's off to bed for me. I just came off 12 hours on night shift and need some sleep. Two more nights and I'm off for seven days. I love the week on/week off schedule but the 12 hour nights wear me down.

Mart

[Larry Gibson]

An alloy of 50/50 lino/WW will be plenty hard enough for hand gun hunting cast bullets.

Perhaps the term "waste" was misleading. It is not a waste in the sense that it is not used. What williamwaco and I ment was that by adding 30 - 50 % of the lead the OP already has it would be a better alloy and he would get a lot more use out of it. Instead of cast his hunting bullets of one linotype and mixing another for practice bullets he could use the same alloy for both with the same load for both practice and hunting. That's a much better use of the linotype IMHO.

Larry Gibson

[badbob454]

thanks for a great explanation mart .....bob

[frankenfab]

Pure linotype can be pretty hard on your sizer.

[mart]

An alloy of 50/50 lino/WW will be plenty hard enough for hand gun hunting cast bullets.

Perhaps the term "waste" was misleading. It is not a waste in the sense that it is not used. What williamwaco and I ment was that by adding 30 - 50 % of the lead the OP already has it would be a better alloy and he would get a lot more use out of it. Instead of cast his hunting bullets of one linotype and mixing another for practice bullets he could use the same alloy for both with the same load for both practice and hunting. That's a much better use of the linotype IMHO.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I should have been more specific in outlining the expectations for my Redhawk. It is no so much a hunting handgun as a firearm to carry when I don't want to be hampered with a rifle. Specifically the rafting, fishing and bird hunting mentioned. The possibility of an encounter with a large bear is likely in any of those activities. The likelihood of having to defend myself against such a bear is small but possible. In the unlikely event that I need to ply a handgun bullet against a bear intent on some ungentlemanly conduct specifically directed at me, I want a bullet that will not expand, will drive deep through tissue and bone, and will not come apart encountering any of those substances. Will 50/50 lino/WW stand up to that? Will linotype come apart encountering heavy bone at handgun velocities?

I don't go afield in fear of bear encounters. I have had a few when I was unarmed and they ended peacefully because we were cautious and alert and gave them ample room. However I feel much more comfortable afield with a weapon, be it rifle or handgun, when the possibility of a bear encounter is very real.

Thanks for all the great input. This is a great site.

Mart

[Larry Gibson]

Will 50/50 lino/WW stand up to that? Will linotype come apart encountering heavy bone at handgun velocities?

An alloy of 50/50 linotype/lead will not come apart.

A straight linotype possibly could. I say possibly because I'll assume 1400 fps or so from your RH? Back in my early cast bullet days I shot a buck in the neck at 70 - 80 yards with a 311291 cast of linotype out of a 30-30 at probably 2000 fps. That bullet did break up on the neck bones. I've not shot much .44 Magnum with linotype bullets and certainly no game ithe it. I have used other softer alloys including quite a bit of Lino/lead at 50/50 or 50/40 and have yet to have one break up. Actually I've yet to recover one as they've all been through and through.

Linotype has a high % of antimony which makes it hard but brittle. There are ways to harden (WQing is the easiest) more malleable alloys that are not brittle and will not break up. If you cast an alloy of 2.5 - 3% tin, 3 - 4% antimony and the rest lead hot and WQ right from the mould as soon as the sprue solidifies the bullets will be 21 - 24 BHN. That is the same as linotype. The WQ'd alloy will also not be brittle and will be malleable unlike the linotype with the same BHN.

Larry Gibson

[badbob454]

i badbob , think 50/50.. linotype /coww should hold up to any bone encountered imho what say you larry ,

[1Shirt]

To me just a good waste of Lino. A much softer alloy as recommended is more than adequate.
1shirt!:coffeecom

[1kshooter]

Will 50/50 lino/WW stand up to that? Will linotype come apart encountering heavy bone at handgun velocities?

An alloy of 50/50 linotype/lead will not come apart.

A straight linotype possibly could. I say possibly because I'll assume 1400 fps or so from your RH? Back in my early cast bullet days I shot a buck in the neck at 70 - 80 yards with a 311291 cast of linotype out of a 30-30 at probably 2000 fps. That bullet did break up on the neck bones. I've not shot much .44 Magnum with linotype bullets and certainly no game ithe it. I have used other softer alloys including quite a bit of Lino/lead at 50/50 or 50/40 and have yet to have one break up. Actually I've yet to recover one as they've all been through and through.

Linotype has a high % of antimony which makes it hard but brittle. There are ways to harden (WQing is the easiest) more malleable alloys that are not brittle and will not break up. If you cast an alloy of 2.5 - 3% tin, 3 - 4% antimony and the rest lead hot and WQ right from the mould as soon as the sprue solidifies the bullets will be 21 - 24 BHN. That is the same as linotype. The WQ'd alloy will also not be brittle and will be malleable unlike the linotype with the same BHN.

Larry Gibson

I am using about the same mix as the above and I am loading for black bear and have tested the load on many different types of media ...they hold together well
and if I use the same mix and just air cool they expand well for deer and varmint
shooting! ...I am shooting the same mix from 45-70 and 44mag at around 1700fps
hope this helps a little?
my take on it if you mixed 50/50 and water quenched from the mold you will have a bullet that is hard enough to do what you are asking of it and not break up on bone like straight brittle lino would do!
Jonathan

[badbob454]

1 Shirt ............its not a waste, just poor economics . if its all you have ,costs no money and you use it, it isnt a waste ... if im shooting bear, i might want a harder boolit

[Larry Gibson]

Yes badbob, it will hold up to bone. Especially if WQ hardened as I and 1kshooter mentioned. Even of not WQ'd the alloys is soft and malleable and will not breack up on bone.

Larry Gibson