Black powder how old is too old

[mdevlin53]

First post and glad to join you all.
In my youth i had a 54 cal renegade for extending the dear season and that gun is long gone. reacently I have begun a small collection of old german bolt action rifles and among them are two that i think i am going to shoot as black powder cartridges. Back in the day i picked up two cans (yes they are steel cans)of Goex Ff superfine powder. It must be 30 years back and i have o idea how old it was when i bought it at a sale of a fellow who had passed. The question is does it ever go bad. it is still dry and is not clumped up or anything. Same question for a couple of cans of Pyrodex that is about the same age.

[grendelbane]

Assuming good storage conditions black powder would last forever.

Even in bad storage conditions black powder would last a long time.

[Bullet Caster]

First of all let me welcome you to Castboolits. I've got some black that I've had for over 20 to 25 years. It still shoots fine. Just remember the old addage, "keep your powder dry!"

Just as long as there are no big clumps it should be fine. At least that's my experience. BC

[Mooseman]

On occasion in the woods north of my place, we find 75mm Sherman tank Blank shells which contain 1 pound of FG Black powder with a wax seal. They have been laying on the ground, get covered in snow and rain every year for the past 50-60 years , left from when the military did training exercises here. The wax seals deteriorate and let moisture in so the Black powder is usually wet or damp. I disarm them carefully by cutting out the wax seal and remove the powder and dry it out...It still works fine so I use it in my cannon.

Rich

[oldred]

d Same question for a couple of cans of Pyrodex that is about the same age.




BP will last forever and a day but not Pyrodex!!!!! Old Pyrodex is bad news, come to think of it NEW Pyrodex is bad news. [smilie=l:

[mdevlin53]

Well thanks its good to know that it is still usable. So here is a question about measuring the load. I am shooting a 10.5x57r. the boolit is .430 lead cast bullet 260 gr. I am thinking of filling the case and after compressing it so that the charge will dictate the seating dept. What i was wondering after i determine the amount of powder in the first load can i weigh it on my scale and use the weight to determine the amount of powder to use for the rest of the loads. I guess i am not clear o the weight v volumn issue,

[mdevlin53]

could you be more specific on the "bad news" is it gunk up your gun bad ,misfire bad. or take a trip to the hospital bad?

[Mike Brooks]

could you be more specific on the "bad news" is it gunk up your gun bad ,misfire bad. or take a trip to the hospital bad?

He's refering to the fact that Pyrodex is extremely corrosive, I won't use it in my guns. I'm currently using Goex 2FF that was made in 1979. I have even older stuff I'll be using some day.

[Bullet Caster]

Black powder is measured by volume not by weight. BP used in my .45 Colt repro gets loaded to the top and then compressed a little. You don't want any air space between the powder and the boolit. If you don't want to use a full charge, then you must use something between the powder and boolit, such as a filler of some kind.

I use 90 gn. of black in my muzzleloader and is dispensed through the use of a powder measure--a black powder measure. Hope this helps. BC

[John Boy]

could you be more specific on the "bad news"

mdevlin53 - the answer, as specific as it can be ...

The Pyrodex patent disclosure shows the formula to contain 19 parts of potassium perchlorate along with 6 parts of sulfur. This effects the powder in two ways. The presence of a perchlorate means that the residue produced by the combustion of the powder will be rich in potassium chloride. Any chloride being corrosive. The presence of elemental sulfur with a perchlorate presents shelf-life problems with the powder.

Okie Dookie? ;-)

And as for quality of old original gun powder - Mooseman's reply is the best there can be. In fact, it was proved back in an 1800's writing, believe it was Sir Halford, wet BP dried will produce a higher velocity then the dry well capped stuff out of the can

I shoot vintage 1950's lots of DuPont with comparable velocity of new powder. Plus, 1973 Meteor, the same results. Both powders are stored in an outside shed with no heat

[bigted]

also the meassuring of REAL BLACK POWDER is done in two different ways. you can weigh it when you find the load that does well for you ..OR...you can make a powder scoop that holds the exact amount of weighed powder that you determine is the load for your rifle.

i been shooting bp off and on since the early 70's and the first time i heard anything about volume only use was when the aftermarket 'fake' powder was introduced to the shooting world. they wanted a person to meassure the 'fake' bp with the same "volume" meassure that you would use for your bp load. this being that the 'fake' powder is either lighter or heavier then the real arctical. i dont use the stuff at all...EVER...so i cant say whether it is heavier or lighter but it is different in weight. so the storie is that when the 'fake' bp came along ... folks were instructed that the volume meassures were the only viable way to reliablely meassure out a charge...which is of coarse a bilg of bunk...the real bp can and is meassured in both ways...weighed and/or by volume.

they say that a couple grains one way or the other is a none event but then why do the rifles tell you that a specific load of lets say 67 grains 2f or 69 grains of 1f powder is the perfect amount the rifle wants/needs for optimum accuracy. and any more or less makes the groups enlarge with all the same other components?

this black powder stuff is very simple and earth friendly and has been for ever. the aftermarket powders that want to compete with it are the culprits of all the confussion with the real stuff. unfortunatly there has been around 40 years of bilg spewing from otherwise *********t folks that has clowded the water for the real facts of this magical elixir and perfumous oder and fun times to be had with the real black powder.

ill step down now and allow another to occupy my soap box

oh and welcome to the forum sir. this will be your addiction from this time on is my bet. burn that old powder with glee and know that no other powder has a shelf life like REAL BLACK POWDER.

[no-horse]

speaking of old, i still have the first empty pound can of black that i bought back in the 50's .it is marked seventy five cents.

[Old Ironsights]

There have been cases where civil war era hollow-iron exploding cannonballs have exploded in someone's house because they used them for fireplace decorations and they went "boom" after the BP inside finally dried out...

[shdwlkr]

black powder has a shelf life of like forever but in some cases it will degrade to the next smaller grain powder over time think a very long time here. This happens if it gets moved a lot and can sort of grind itself into the next finer powder.

I have some from when I started shooting black powder in the 60's and this has started to happen but then again I have moved a lot since then and it just gets bounced around in the vehicle from one place to the next. Hasn't affected the shoot ability of the powder just how much I use.

If you powder is dry and to some extent even if it has been wet, let it dry and it will still go boom when you ignite it.
As to pyrodex I have some of that from the early days still works so I am wondering just how long it has to be stored before it goes bad. Just wondering as if it is bad it time to use it on the flowers.

As to it being bad for the firearm when talking black powder is there any powder if not cleaned up after using that will not affect your firearm in a bad way?

Just an old man's view who has been playing with black powder for around 50 years and still learning how to have fun with black powder firearms.

[Larry Gibson]

I still have several cans of Dupont FFFG, works as good as when new.

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

I am thinking of filling the case and after compressing it so that the charge will dictate the seating dept. What i was wondering after i determine the amount of powder in the first load can i weigh it on my scale and use the weight to determine the amount of powder to use for the rest of the loads.
Yes, you can do it that way.
If you change to a different can (or brand) of powder, you may want to redo the 'volume check - then weigh it' process, but it is perfectly acceptable to weigh black powder charges on a scale.

CM

[mdevlin53]

Now thats a lot of information and i thank each one of you for it.
I am glad i can measure the powder by weight after i initialy determine the volume because i have an old brass measure in 10 grain increments and i see a fancy measure is a hundred and a half after tax and shipping. I already have a scale and i think i could trim a 45-70 case to the correct volume and then solder a handle on it (and solder plug the primer hole). A couple more details on seating the boolit on this old case and we are headed to the range to make som holes and smoke.

Thanks again
Michael

[TXGunNut]

Check with the US Navy. Wasn't long ago they were using BP made circa WWII for their big guns, maybe they still do.

[lkydvl]

I have a '63 Springfield rifle, belt, pouch and powder horn carried by my ancestor during the Civil War. I have tested the powder from the horn and it still works fine!

Andre`

[Bob in Revelstoke]

I have a tin of Curtis and Harvey FFg that, as near as I can tell was bought by an uncle in the early 1920's. Still works fine. I also have a can of smokeless powder for the .303 Savage from about the era. Don't have a .303 Savage so tried some in .30.30 still works.

[Freightman]

Correct storage is the secret to any powder life! Pyrodex also stinks a lot more than real BP IMHO

[Chicken Thief]

The oldest i have fired was 130+ years old!
Shot fine.

[tacklebury]

Correct storage is the secret to any powder life! Pyrodex also stinks a lot more than real BP IMHO

+1 My wife hates pyrodex smell so much she threatened not to let me clean it inside! Goex she's only mildly disdainful about. hehe

[oldfart1956]

When I need 2fg I reach for the 6lb. can/keg of Dupont. It's marked right on the top....1906 and it still works dandy. Audie...the Oldfart..

[bydand]

There have been cases where civil war era hollow-iron exploding cannonballs have exploded in someone's house because they used them for fireplace decorations and they went "boom" after the BP inside finally dried out...

Those "andirions" were a pair of shells from a Civil War Parrot rifle! the people installed them in their vacation cottage, then went for a walk until the house warmed up. Took out the fireplace and the wall.
The powder in Revolutionary War shells was still good
The Navy had to come up with a manual for disarming Civil War shells because one of the naval bases dated to that period and sailors were finding them and trying to disarm them with sometimes rather "UNFORTUNATE" results. :rolleyes: