Recipes for "Mouse Fart" Loads in 30-06

[Alan in Vermont]

Buddy of mine wants to play with low noise/velocity loads in a pre-64 M-70. The only boolits available to us right now are 311440s and (when it arrives) the Lee 311-93-RN.

Anybody got proven suggestions for such things?

[Jack Stanley]

One of my favorite gallery loads for my 03 is a 311466 sized at .311" over a charge of seven and a half grains of Unique or Universal Clays . Out to about thirty-five yards it hits right where the battle sight of the 03 is looking .

I haven't used Bullseye for the loads you are looking for in a very long time but that did work as well in very moderate charges . It was also about as loud as a handclap .

Jack

[HighHook]

The lee 93 sized to .311 w/ 3 gr bulls is the ticket for addiction...

[DeanWinchester]

I'm at 12.5g of unique in my .308 right now. I still have to fight 'the grins' while I'm shooting. Everyone I have let shoot it just laughs and laughs, followed with a 'care if I try just a couple more?'

10g of unique is the standard to measure everything by. Try that. If that recoils too much maybe a .22LR would suit better.:kidding:

[Alan in Vermont]

Dean, what boolit are you using?

[Larry Gibson]

I'd go with 3.2 gr Bullseye under that 93 gr Lee bullet. Tumle lightly in LLA and size at .311. A .31 cal M die will work a bit better than the .30 M die for the PB'd smallish .311 sized bullets.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Dean, what boolit are you using?

It's a lee mold, 160g tumble lube spitzer made for 7,62x39. With check in place, it weighs a perfect 168g. Sized to .311

[Whiterabbit]

trailboss will be your best friend. I suggest a 9 oz can and start playing. Can't go wrong!

[gofastman]

Anybody got proven suggestions for such things?
not proven, but a case-full of Trail Boss (NOT COMPRESSED!) may be a good place to start

EDIT:
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

[Haggway]

I use sr4759, and trail boss. in 30-06, 3040 krag, and 303 brit.

[Alan in Vermont]

not proven, but a case-full of Trail Boss (NOT COMPRESSED!) may be a good place to start

Don't you just sound like quite the genius.

[softpoint]

Don't you just sound like quite the genius.

Trailboss gets my vote too, for what you are wanting to do

[RU shooter]

5-6 grains of Bullseye and the 311440 is what I would use. I get good accuracy out to 100 yds using it and the 155 gr lee bullet

[Lonegun1894]

I use the Lee .314" 90gr SWC sized to .311 for .30-06 or sized to .314 for the .303 Brit, and pushed by 2.7grs of Unique for garden pest control, and both are accurate and shoot to the iron sights out to 45yds, but I haven't tried them further so cant speak for accuracy or effect further out. Inside that 45yd range, they handle ANY garden pest with steam to spare, so still have to be careful of a safe backstop like any other round. Noise level is about equal to my pellet pistol when these are fired in a 1917 in '06 or a Enfield in .303, but much more effective than any pellet or .22 LR I have tried.

[gofastman]

Don't you just sound like quite the genius.
go on....
:confused:

Its simply not possible to create an overpressure 30-06 round with trail boss, as long as its not compressed.
a full case may get you 30-40k psi

EDIT:
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

[Alan in Vermont]

Thank you for the clarification, now it makes sense.

My buddy saw something about foraging loads in (I think) Backwoodsman, which is what got him fired up to play with them.

I've loaded the Lee 93 gr. ahead of 5.0/Unique in 30-30 cases for my 94. I fired two to check noise/recoil level as I wanted something real gentle/quiet for my recoil shy granddaughter. Got to get out and check zero before I have her shooting it.

Waiting for my own mold to arrive, the ones I loaded were some another shooter gave me to try. I had planned to see how those shot before I sprung for a mold but I had an order going to Midsouth and figured I'd crowd as much as I could afford into one order.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi.

Larry Gibson

Larry , that is something I haven't thought of and it brings me to a question . Is there a rule of thumb for how much Bullseye instead of Unique to use ? Reason I ask is one of my favorite loads in the aught six case with a hundred fifty-five grain bullet uses seven and a half grains of Unique . I'm pretty sure load data is not available for loads this low .

Thanks , Jack

[Larry Gibson]

Jack

That load data was available 100+ years ago. Was loaded with a M1906 bullet and was known as a "Guard" load. If you read many of the old writers they used around 6 gr in the 30-30 under a 311291 or similar PB"d cast bullet or 6.5 - 7.5 gr in the '06 for use as a "foraging" or practice load. Whelen had a load he used in the M1903 with the 311008 loaded with a Ideal tong tool that was very similar.

As to a "rule of thumb" having shot lots of such in rifles over the years I've found that lighter weight pistol bullets most often shoot more accurately at 800 - 950 fps with such loads. Thus I use 2.7 gr Bullseye in cases from 7.62x39 to 300 Savage in capacity with 90 - 118 gr PB'd pistol bullets. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye in .308W to '06 capacity cases with the same bullets. Those 2 loads have always worked in any .30 or .31 cal rifle. In .35 call rifles I've found that 120 - 160 gr pistol bullets also are the most accurate in the 800 - 950 fps range. I use 4 - 6.5 gr with those in the .35 Rem, .358W and 35 Whelens. Case that show that speckled crack around the web expansion ring signaling incipient case head seperation that haven't actually seperated yet are great to use with these loads. There is no real psi and these cases get a new lease on life and last practically forever with these 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye loads under a 90 gr SWC or even the HBWCs sold by Hornady and Speer.

With low end loads rifle cast bullets I've found they shoot very accurately if cast soft and PB'd or GC'd at 1050 - 1200 fps, most often right around 1150 fps. I use Bullsey with those also using 6 - 8 gr depending on what it takes to get into that velocity range. Above 1200 fps Unique most often works better.

I also use light weight PB'd cast bullets in the 8x57, the .375 H&H and the 45-70. I use 6.5 gr+ depending on what is also needed to get the bullets to 1050 - 1200 fps. I do use 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H with a 375 RB lightly lubed with LLA for 900 fps and a very deadly small game load to 50-75 yards.

I also have used 200 gr .30 and 8mm very soft cast bullets loaded down to 300 fps with success although it takes about 500 fps to get to 50 yards with the ladder milsurp sights. Using 1.5 to 2.7 gr bullseye gets you to those low end "cat's sneeze" velocities. Bullets must be cast of pure lead or 40-1 or they may stick in the barrel. A ight coat of LLA is all that's need for lube. Also if a rimless case is used you might consider well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled (#30 - 28) to avoid the shortening of the cases headspace.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

Thank you very much Larry , that is helpful information and if I can get by with a lesser charge of Bullseye I can get more shots per pound too .

Thanks again , Jack

[nanuk]

great info here Larry, thanks

I recently picked up a Lee TL314-085-DEWC, was looking for this exact info for my Brits, 30-30's and a couple other 30cal's

What OTHER powders besides BE, would you suggest for same performance/characteristics?

[Larry Gibson]

N310, 231, HP38, Titewad and WST.

Larry Gibson

[HighHook]

Larry,

What are your thoughts on light charges of 700x?

The Lyman book lists it a lot in light rifle loads.

[Larry Gibson]

It works but when you get down to the real "cat's sneeze" or "mouse fart loads" we're discussing here some powders work in some cases and in others they don't. I use Bullseye because it works in everything. 700x is a bit slower than BE and requires a bit more psi to burn efficiently. I tested it many years ago and it worked well with heavier cast bullets in .30 cal because the psi was high enough while keeping the velocity low enough. However, it didn't work near as well as BE for the lighter 90 - 118 gr cast bullets if you want to keep them down in the 800 - 900 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

With the lee boolit in my 8mm Mauser 5 gr of clays worked pretty good. I've worked down to 2 gr without sticking a boolit in the bore and you could hear the firing pin fall over the sound of the shot.

[Lonegun1894]

Another one I haven't used in a while so forgot to mention was 4.0 grs Unique but this was to push a 170gr Lee FPGC design (without the GC) out of a .30-06, which wasn't quite as quiet, but not near a standard rounds noise levels either. Probably about like a .22 short if that helps. But I quit using it because it penetrated MUCH more than anything I felt safe using for pest control in the garden and seemed to want to ricochet out of my gun. Now if I was having to tackle things bigger than my local garden pests, it would have potential, but most of mine are possums and smaller stuff, so I didn't really need that much power. The 90 gr .314 Lee pushed by 2.7grs Unique penetrates plenty and doesn't seem to want to ricochet like the 170gr pills or the .22.

[excess650]

Solo 1000 would be a good choice. I've used it in ultralight loads in various calibers, and chose it specifically because it burned so cleanly.

[Alan in Vermont]

I got my mold earlier this week and cast the first boolits from it today. Made around 500 or so and sorted into "real good" and "good enough for play". Sized some of the good ones to .309, they are going to my bud tomorrow so he can play with them. He's been lurking, following this thread. Might make a boolit shooter out of him.

[Stick_man]

With these ultra light loads, do you use fillers? How position sensitive is the powder?

[Wolfer]

IMO you don't need fillers with fast pistol/ shotgun powders like BE ,red dot, clays or even unique. But for your really mouse fart loads I don't think you can use too fast a powder, just don't use too much!

[Jack Stanley]

I've burned enough Universal Clays and Unique in reduced loads and it doesn't seem to make any difference . My aught six loads rarely go past thirty-five yards though . Maybe past that it would make a difference but for my use I load a magazine full and practice rapid fire with them in an A3 . I'm going to try the Bullseye in a reduced load soon .

Jack

[marshall623]

Jack

That load data was available 100+ years ago. Was loaded with a M1906 bullet and was known as a "Guard" load. If you read many of the old writers they used around 6 gr in the 30-30 under a 311291 or similar PB"d cast bullet or 6.5 - 7.5 gr in the '06 for use as a "foraging" or practice load. Whelen had a load he used in the M1903 with the 311008 loaded with a Ideal tong tool that was very similar.

As to a "rule of thumb" having shot lots of such in rifles over the years I've found that lighter weight pistol bullets most often shoot more accurately at 800 - 950 fps with such loads. Thus I use 2.7 gr Bullseye in cases from 7.62x39 to 300 Savage in capacity with 90 - 118 gr PB'd pistol bullets. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye in .308W to '06 capacity cases with the same bullets. Those 2 loads have always worked in any .30 or .31 cal rifle. In .35 call rifles I've found that 120 - 160 gr pistol bullets also are the most accurate in the 800 - 950 fps range. I use 4 - 6.5 gr with those in the .35 Rem, .358W and 35 Whelens. Case that show that speckled crack around the web expansion ring signaling incipient case head seperation that haven't actually seperated yet are great to use with these loads. There is no real psi and these cases get a new lease on life and last practically forever with these 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye loads under a 90 gr SWC or even the HBWCs sold by Hornady and Speer.

With low end loads rifle cast bullets I've found they shoot very accurately if cast soft and PB'd or GC'd at 1050 - 1200 fps, most often right around 1150 fps. I use Bullsey with those also using 6 - 8 gr depending on what it takes to get into that velocity range. Above 1200 fps Unique most often works better.

I also use light weight PB'd cast bullets in the 8x57, the .375 H&H and the 45-70. I use 6.5 gr+ depending on what is also needed to get the bullets to 1050 - 1200 fps. I do use 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H with a 375 RB lightly lubed with LLA for 900 fps and a very deadly small game load to 50-75 yards.

I also have used 200 gr .30 and 8mm very soft cast bullets loaded down to 300 fps with success although it takes about 500 fps to get to 50 yards with the ladder milsurp sights. Using 1.5 to 2.7 gr bullseye gets you to those low end "cat's sneeze" velocities. Bullets must be cast of pure lead or 40-1 or they may stick in the barrel. A ight coat of LLA is all that's need for lube. Also if a rimless case is used you might consider well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled (#30 - 28) to avoid the shortening of the cases headspace.

Larry Gibson

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

[pilot]

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

My guess is it is related to bullet length and twist.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

I shoot many thousands of squib/cat's sneeze loads in various calibers but mostly in .30s. Many of these are rimless cartridges; 30-06, .308, .308 CBC, 7.65, 7.62x39 etc. The squib loads I shoot most often is a Lee 314-90-SWC-TL over 2.7 to 3.2 gr of Bullseye depending on the cartridge. Velocity is around 800 – 875 fps. I found a long time ago the shoulders do in fact get set back with light loads such as those. With many cast loads that use normal weight bullets in the 1600 to 2000 fps range there was little setback. Measurements of shoulder set back or increase are easily taken with a Stoney Point tool. There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers. I never experience the problem with the .222 Rem or the 5.56 Nato.

Using #'d drills I gradually increased the flash hole diameter with a progressively larger drill. Using a different fire formed case with each larger drill and firing 5 primers I then measured the headspace before firing and after. As the size of the flash hole increased the headspace decrease lessoned. With a # 29 drill I no longer got any decrease in headspace. I dedicated five .308 cases and five 30-06 cases that were well fire formed to their respective rifles chambers and drilled the flash holes with the #29 drill. Over the next few days I fired 50 shots with each case. There was an indoor 50” range where I was stationed so it wasn’t all that bad. After the 50 firings there was negligible change in headspace with any of the five cases of each cartridge. The results of my test firmly demonstrated to me that it was the force of the primer explosion that drove the case forward and set back the shoulder. The squib load does not have the pressure to expand the case out to fit the chamber. By drilling out the flash hole the force of the explosion mostly went directly into the case as there is little rim left to contain it. Two other side benefits that were unforeseen; the extreme spread and standard deviations of the velocity readings improved and the case position sensitivity of the small charge was greatly reduced.

As a result of the above tests I dedicated fire formed cases for squib loads for each rifle in rimless cases and drill out the flash holes. I have fired them many, many times now with no further change in headspace. Besides the squib load mentioned I also use 311631 (# may be wrong but it’s the 118 gr GC 32-20 bullet) with Unique in the above cartridges loaded to 1400 fps or so for a little more powerful small game load. The flash hole drilled cases work just fine for those. I now use the flash ole drilled cases for all my rimless cartridges with squib and really light loads.

Undrilled cases fired in CF rifles will onlyhave the headspace shortened until the extracor holds the case back. Normally the firing pin protrusion is enough with CF rifles that misfires do not occur. With PF rifles it is a different story, these are where the most problems with misfires occur because the ejector also pushes the case forward. Soon the headspace of the case is such the firing pin does not hit the primer enough to fire it and/or the case is pushed far enough forward the extractor doesn't slip over the rim and extraction is then with a cleaning rod.

Of course with Rimmed cases the shoulder sets back only as far as rim headspace allows. I will many times use rimmed cases with drilled flash holes any way because the larger flash hole lets the flash into the case much quicker for more positive ignition.

Caveat; I still use normal sized flash hole cases for loads with medium to heavy (for caliber) cast bullets with velocities from 1800 fps and up.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

Larry, have you tried the 311410 & B'eye in a Krag ? Like to find a gallery load for my hiwall. Poyer's book does list some, but with powders that hav'nt been around for a loooong time. :popcorn:

[nanuk]

I vote for a "Sticky" for this thread....


too much info to get lost in the shuffle....

thanks. Larry. I"m gonna cut and paste this, and keep it handy, as these rounds are a great idea!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, have you tried the 311410 & B'eye in a Krag ? Like to find a gallery load for my hiwall. Poyer's book does list some, but with powders that hav'nt been around for a loooong time. :popcorn:

Not in the 30-40 Krag but I have in the '06 in M1903s. Suggest starting at 3.5 gr and work up to 5 gr in .2 gr increments. Accuracy will probably be best in the 750 - 900 fps range. That's just a guess based on my experience/loading notes long ago with the 311410.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

Thanks Larry, I'll get a can of B'seye & give it a try. May have to try it in the 03A3 also. :popcorn:

[WRideout]

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi.

Larry Gibson

I loaded some light loads for 30-06 with small charges of Unique under a 170 gr plain base boolit for plinking. They worked okay in the summer when I rolled them up. Later, in the PA winter when temperatures were considerably lower, I consistently had boolits stuck in the bore, and an action full of unburned powder. Then I tried using a polyester filler over the powder, and that seemed to cure the problem. I am still not completely sold on Unique for very light loads. It seems like powders in the Red Dot/Green Dot range work a lot better for that purpose. I would probably still use the filler, though.

Wayne

[Jack Stanley]

I will second the motion for sticky of this thread . I heard of drilling cases for very light loads in the past but never though I'd need to do that . Now that I have an idea of how much Bullseye to use I may need to get with the program .

I've been using Unique for low velocity round in the aught six for a long time now . The ammo never got chronographed but I think it is about twelve hundred . Bullets used have been 311466 , 311291 and 311334 with charge weights 7.5 to 11.2 , the lighter bullets I've run without gas check , the 311334 I haven't tried without the check just yet . For what it's worth I don't use fillers of any kind with the groups remaning very good down to below freezing .

Yesterday I was working with Bullseye in the three oh three British case . Bullet was 311291 sized at .314" with one groove filled with Alox no gas check and charges went from six to seven grains . Six point two grains showed the most promise with an over all length of 2.755" if I remember right . Now , the job will be to see if it will feed from the magazine of the Enfields , I tried one and it didn't so there is fine tuning to do yet . If the rifle is left being a single shot with these short bullets then I may have to use the RCBS 32-98-SWC .

This oughta be fun .

Jack

[excess650]

I agree that there should be a "sticky" regarding these ultralight loads. I haven't gotten around to them yet in the 308, 7.5x55, and '06, but have plans to try them. The NOE version of the 311008 should do the job, or the Lee 311-100-2R.

[Oshiro708]

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space
Mr. Gibbs,
You mention LLA in your article on Mouse Fart Loads. What type of lube is this?

[swamp]

LLA= Lee Liquid Alox

[Oshiro708]

I'd go with 3.2 gr Bullseye under that 93 gr Lee bullet. Tumle lightly in LLA and size at .311. A .31 cal M die will work a bit better than the .30 M die for the PB'd smallish .311 sized bullets.

Larry Gibson
Mr Gibson,

Have you tried Trail Boss powder for your mouse fart loads? I would like to try this powder in a 30-06 case. Would you use a heavy or light bullet to start? For me sound level has a higher priority than velocity. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks Oshiro708

[rhead]

A stratagy that has worked for me is to adjust the powder charge to match the point of impact to my sights set for my deer hunting loads. Then live with the report and recoil. Using bullseye or red dot this is usually almost not existant with light for caliber boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

Mr Gibson,

Have you tried Trail Boss powder for your mouse fart loads? I would like to try this powder in a 30-06 case. Would you use a heavy or light bullet to start? For me sound level has a higher priority than velocity. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks Oshiro708

I have not tried Trail Boss with these loads. I use Bullseye because it has worked for many, many many years and isn't broke so I've not tried to fix it. Seriously, the real reason I've not tried Trail Boss is I just haven't gotten around to it yet.....so much to shoot, so many rocks, pine cones and cow pies that need killin'.......:grin:

Larry Gibson

[Oshiro708]

I have not tried Trail Boss with these loads. I use Bullseye because it has worked for many, many many years and isn't broke so I've not tried to fix it. Seriously, the real reason I've not tried Trail Boss is I just haven't gotten around to it yet.....so much to shoot, so many rocks, pine cones and cow pies that need killin'.......:grin:

Larry Gibson
Mr. Gibson,

Would I be able to use rifle cast bullets instead of pistol cast bullets with mouse fart loads?

[clodhopper]

Oshiro,
I cant answer for Larry Gibson, But if you want to test light loads in longer bullets, be sure to bring a brass rod to the range.
My experimenting, looking for quiet loads, has led to bullets not exiting the barrel.

[Jack Stanley]

Oshiro , I don't know if my loads would fit the catagory but I have been using Unique and Universal clays to make mid to heavy thirty caliber bullet get to around eleven hundred feet per second or so . My interest in Bullseye is that I might get better accuracy and economy at the same time so I'm just starting to work with that .

If it's any help to you ...... I just made up a load using six point two of Bullseye in a 303 British case . Bullet is one of the "fat" 311291 bullets with one ring of Alox 50/50 and no gas check . If I had younger eyes I bet it would group into a single ragged hole . If the light is right you can see the bullet lumbering slowly downrange .

Jack

[Larry Gibson]

Mr. Gibson,

Would I be able to use rifle cast bullets instead of pistol cast bullets with mouse fart loads?



Very good advise, I always have a cleaning rod at the range with me whether I'm shooting such loads or not.

I have taken rifle bullets in .30.31 nad 8mm of 150 - 220 gr down to 300 fps without sticking a bullet in the barrel. I think it was Paco Kelly that writes an artricle on how to do that. The key is to cast them of dead soft lead as Paco recommends. I push size them in Lee sizers if sizing is needed. and use LLA for the lube. Mostly I use them down to 500+ fps because having enough sight adjustment becomes a real problem. Milsurps like the M1903 with a tall ladder sight work best.

I don't use the heavier rifle bullets much any more if there is a good pistol bullet to use for that cartridge, although I still use the Lyman 225415 in the Hornet and .223, the Lyman 257283HP in the 25-20, the Lyman 266455s in the 6.5s, the RCBS 30-150-FN in my .30s, a GB 325-150-FN in my 8mms, a Lyman 375248 in the 375 H&H and a Rapine 460210HB or 460250 in my 45-70s. Mostly those are shot at 1050 - 1150 fps using Bullseye powder. PB'd soft cast pistol bullets in my rifles are mostly used at 800 - 950 fps over Bullseye. I only use one RB anymore and that is a 375 lubed with LLA over 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H.

Larry Gibson

[Jeffrey]

Cat sneeze loads have a special place for me. I shoot them in my back yard here in rural south mississippi, but don't want to scare my free range chickens too bad. Here is a thread I started voicing appreciation for help with my 30-30 load. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=94463
My experience is, for a subsonic load, use bullseye, start at 2.5 grains, and work up .2 gr or so untill accuracy becomes what you want and hopefully before noise becomes what you don't want.
Raise your gun's muzzle to situate the powder in back of the case and remember to follow through.
Happy shooting, Jeffrey

[Alan in Vermont]

I'd go with 3.2 gr Bullseye under that 93 gr Lee bullet. Tumle lightly in LLA and size at .311. A .31 cal M die will work a bit better than the .30 M die for the PB'd smallish .311 sized bullets.

Larry Gibson

I loaded a few of that recipe last weekend. Sounds about like CB Long in a 22 rimfire. Bob hasn't put them on paper yet, just threw five of them at the dead tree/bullet stop in the back yard. Getting a little soot on the outside of the necks so apparently they aren't expanding enough to seal the case in the chamber. On the flip side of that the fired cases won't accept a boolit so it looks like all he will need to do is de/reprime and flare the necks just a touch before loading them again.

Used the same charge in 30-30 and got about the same noise level but I will need to neck size to hold the next boolit. Was hoping to try mine on paper today but winds were gusting to 30 so I held of on that. Winds are supposed to be down tomorrow so I'm hoping to get in a long range session.

[Larry Gibson]

Use 2.7 gr in the 30-30 and you might not have to size the necks either, depending on cases used. I don't use the 3.2 gr load until I case capacity is from the .308W to the '06. The 2.7 gr load works best in 7.62x39 to .3300 Savage capacity cases. I shot a test one time out of my Mini MK X bolt action 7.62x39 with the 2.7 gr load under the 90 gr SWC using one case to see how many shots it would take before I had to size the necks. Got bored after 50 shots and gave up. Accuracy was excellent through out all 50 shots.

Larry Gibson

[Oshiro708]

Mr. Gibson,

Is any amount of crimping required for these light loads?

Oshiro708

[heathydee]

I have played around with Trailboss in the 30-06 and found it gives good accuracy with a modified Lee 200 grn boolit . I was primarily concerned with getting some terminal performance happening and experimented with splitting the boolit by placing aluminium foil between the mould halves . This did not prove adequate as some boolits flew apart before reaching the target. To cut a long story short , a partially split boolit - leaving a solid section at the tip , with a drilled hollow point gave both excellent sub-sonic accuracy and good terminal performance in a half gallon water container .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buprWD66MTQ&list=UUdza0w1OiFq1ByUehsRXzdA&index=1&feature=plcp

[Alan in Vermont]

I got in some range time today.

I ran both light loads I had, 3.2 BE and 5.0 Unique behind the Lee 93. Very similar sound and feel for each of them. The Unique load shot a tiny bit better at 25 yds and it matched the zero of my medium load, Lyman 311440 ahead of 19.0 IMR-4759, the BE load grouped about 2" out, high and right. I will play with BE more to see if I can get it to match zero as well. IIRC, the 311440 load matches my jacketed load at 50 as well. It's almost too much to hope for to get three loads that are so far apart, balisticly, to group close enough at plinking distances to require no sight fussing.

There were three young folks who showed up just before I left. Got into talking with them and they all tried the Unique loads. Big smiles and "Gee, those are fun!" type comments. One of the guys was hitting clay pidgeons at 50 yds. and the girl with them put two into about 2" on paper at 50.

Lots of potential there, I will definately be working with reduced loads to see just what they can be made to do.

I need to do something better for a front sight on the 94 though. The white bead on there was graying out under the roof over the benches and my eyes weren't seeing it real well. I've got a Williams Foolproof on the rear with with a twilight aperture, just need a better front sight.

[Jim]

One time, just for the fun of it, I loaded 5 grains of Bullseye under some Lee 312-100-2Rs. Man, that's more fun than any six people can get a permit for![smilie=w:

I was tempted to take my '06 'coon huntin' one night just to see what them boys would say when I got out the truck with it. I'd love to see the game warden's face when he walks up and sees I been killin' ringtails with an '06!:holysheep

[Larry Gibson]

Mr. Gibson,

Is any amount of crimping required for these light loads?

Oshiro708

With single fed cartridges no. With 30-30s fed from the tube a slight crimp is need to prevent mag tube sping from pushing the bullets into the cases.

Larry Gibson

[fixit]

been playinjg with 'cat sneeze' loads for some time now. red dot, 4756, and trail boss are what i've used, all with about equall success. from as little as about .8 gr. of red dot to about 3 grains of any of them, you can get so quiet that the firing pin makes more noise than the round, up to about cb cap level sound. at 2 gr. the load is like shooting an air rifle. had my 23 yr. old son at the range one time, and it was funny watching him shoot, giggle (ya... giggle!} theb reach for another round. the bullets i use range from 311 cast balls, and 00 buckshot, run through a .310 sizer, up to and including a 180 gr out of a lee mould. with 2 to 3 gr. and the 180 gr bullet, the bullet will go through a 1.25 treated luimber deck board at 50 yds!

[StratsMan]

These sound too fun to miss out on, but I'm scratchin' my head about accuracy.... How in the world can you get enough RPM's on a 30 cal projectile to be accurate with a 10-inch twist at 500-800 FPS ?????? (maybe that's why you use pistol boolits???)

Inquiring minds want to know....

[Alan in Vermont]

These sound too fun to miss out on, but I'm scratchin' my head about accuracy....

This being my first foray into light loads I can't offer much. Not being able to get a good sight picture sure wasn't helping any but I was getting 2.5" at 25. I think that good share of that was my inability to see anything but a vague shape where the (white) front bead was. I would love to get a side mount so I could hang a scope on the 94 just for working up loads but I'm too cheap to buy one just for this use.

I'm thinking (maybe hoping) that, with good sights, I could hold an inch a 25. My whole goal is for minute of can at plinking distances. I'm not far off that right now so I'm pretty content with my results so far.

I think I'm going to try a fiber optic front sight or maybe a Lyman 17a with an aperture insert. I thought I had a 17a around here somewhere, I sorta halfway remember that either I tried one, or one of the other shooters had one, on a silhouette gun years ago.

While I was typing that last part I got a wild hair idea and called my son to see if he remembered the 17a being here. He knew we had one, no idea where though. While on the phone with him I was pawing through our "catch-all" cabinet and VOILA!! A 17a the right height for the 94. It even has an aperture insert, a bit too small one but usable for now. It's going to be interesting to find out if the double aperture works better with my aging eyes.

I know the whole process is inevitable but I sure do hate losing the edge on my vision. It really bothers me to sound like a doddering old fart, "When I was younger I used to be able to do yadda, yadda, yadda,,,,,"

[6.5 mike]

Welcome to the "old farts" club [smilie=l:.

[Alan in Vermont]

When I was young, and in my prime
I used to do it all the time
Now that I am old and gray
I only do it twice a day

[bearcove]

5-6 grains of Bullseye and the 311440 is what I would use. I get good accuracy out to 100 yds using it and the 155 gr lee bullet

+1 Bullseye or other fast " not position sensitive powders" work. I shot skeet for a while and used 700x that was handy the same way.

[zxcvbob]

I'd start with 10 grains of Red Dot or Promo and work *backwards* until I found a load I liked.

[7of7]

anyone thought about titewad?
fast shotgun powder...

[Jack Stanley]

I just finished shooting a box of fifty aught six rounds in the 1903A3 . Bullet was a H&G number sixy-seven , sized at .312" with both grooves full of Alox . Large rifle primer and four point seven grains of Bullseye .

I had a B-3 target set up at thirty five yards and benched the rilfe for thirty shots . the group could be covered with a half dollar and I don't mean a paper one torn in half . If the light was right , you could see the base of the bullet in flight very briefly . The rest of the ammo was used to break up dirt clods and other dangerous things at the range .

What a great way to use up leftover bullets [smilie=l:

Jack

[paul h]

When I had my 35 whelen I did alot of experimenting with mouse fart and other reduced loads with pistol bullets. What I found in the whelen is that I could get excellent accuracy with unique at 1200-1700 fps, but when I reduced the loads to the point that the velocity was in the 700-800 fps range, the velocity was swinging over 100 fps for a 5 shot string. I just don't like those sorts of swings, nor did I want to resort to using a filler to hold the powder over the primer.

I did try some true can sneeze loads using unique with a wad of toilet paper to hold it in place. I used a progressively cut down 22 short case as a dipper. I got to the point that instead of a cap gun report I'd get a ping, and the bullet wasn't leaving the barrel. At cap gun report levels a 148 gr hbwc with the hollow base loaded as a massive hollow point at point blank range would penetrate 1/2 way through a phone book and turned itself almost inside out. I never tried those loads for accuracy or velocity, it was more or an experiment in how low can you go.

Anyhow, for true cat sneeze loads I'd go with bullseye, it's easier to ignite, and since it burns the fastest of them all, it will have the lowest pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel, and hence the mildest report.

Hmm, maybe I should try some 105 gr lee's ouf the 350 rem mag :D

[Alan in Vermont]

The Lee 311-93-RN that I have been experimenting with seems to have a tendency to produce a large percentage of not-quite-boolits. I haven't isolated just what the mold prefers, some sessions come out real good, others just so-so. Not that they are real bad, the greatest part are more than adequate for the intended, plinking purpose.

I sorted the results of the last session and ended up with 98 boolits with no visible defects. Today I weighed those and had 2 that came in seriously light but the rest were surprisingly uniform. Eight were strays at the opposite ends of the weight range but 88 were clumped into a 1.1 grain total spread with the mid point being right around 93.4 grains. Most of them landed between 93.2 and 93.6grs.

I'm going to work on accuracy with those just top see what they will do. I just put a Lyman 17a front sight on my 94 and will be using an aperture in that to (hopefully) help my old eyes out on the target.

I was just reading an old Handloader article about patching with teflon tape. I'm going to try a few that way as well. No idea what I will find with that but getting there is going to be most of the fun anyhow.

[Oshiro708]

Where can I read Paco Kelly's "Silent But Deadly" online? Please post email address.

[Oshiro708]

Mr. Gibson,

I have access to some Haendler & Natermann .32 caliber .314 diameter 100 grn WC bullets. I would like to load these in a 30-06 case. Do I push the WC into the neck till it's seated to the neck and shoulder junction or seated out to engage the rifling? Will a charge of 2.7grn BE be a good starting load? I'm looking for a quiet load more than a load with velocity.

[Molly]

Buddy of mine wants to play with low noise/velocity loads in a pre-64 M-70. The only boolits available to us right now are 311440s and (when it arrives) the Lee 311-93-RN.

Anybody got proven suggestions for such things?

I haven't read the entire forum, so forgive me if someone has beat me to this, but you might want to peruse the 'Favorite Reduced Loads' discussion in the 'Stickies' forum. There are loads that run the gamut from gnat nappers to rodent ruiners. Lots of good info for lots of guns.

[Oshiro708]

My "mouse fart" load sounds like a 38 special WC load. I used a .314 WC sized down to .311, sized the neck to .311 with a Lyman neck die, seated bullet to neck shoulder junction w/ slight crimp so round would chamber, drilled out the primer hole with a #29 bit. This round was shot in a 1903A3 30-06 and lubed with LLA.

Any comments appreciated as to why this loading is more like a "bull fart" than a "mouse fart" load.

[I'll Make Mine]

My "mouse fart" load sounds like a 38 special WC load. I used a .314 WC sized down to .311, sized the neck to .311 with a Lyman neck die, seated bullet to neck shoulder junction w/ slight crimp so round would chamber, drilled out the primer hole with a #29 bit. This round was shot in a 1903A3 30-06 and lubed with LLA.

Any comments appreciated as to why this loading is more like a "bull fart" than a "mouse fart" load.

All the noise in a load like this is due to residual pressure behind the bullet when it leaves the bore; to make it quieter, you need to reduce that residual pressure. You can reduce your powder load some, or you can reduce your powder a lot and use a faster powder. The fastest powder out there will give the quietest report, because it'll all be burned and the bullet actually decelerating when it leaves the bore. Try one of the Bullseye loads from back up this thread a bit; get that bullet down to 800 or so fps over Bullseye and you'll probably find it sounds like a top end air rifle.

[paul h]

For an fyi, I decided to give bullseye a try in my 350 rem mag. A 22 short case used as a dipper drops ~2gr of bullseye. With that charge and a 1/4 sheet of tp to keep the powder in place I was able to drive a 148gr wadcutter, and a 160gr hp through 3/4" pine and put a healthy dent in a 3/4" piced of plywood behind it. Report was somewhere North of a cap gun, and South of a fire cracker. I didn't do any accuracy testing, I was just seeing if it would get the bullets out of the barrel, report and penetration.

I'll try some more tests to see how low I can go with powder charges before sticking a bullet, then I'll do some accuracy testing.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Great thread, glad I stumbled on it. I've been using 7 grains of Red Dot under a commercial cast 160 grain bevel base and it'll group inside of two inches at 70 yards. When all those are gone, I might give the Lee 31193 six banger a go and work it down to 700 fps or so which is where I seem to find mouse fart nirvana...

[Alan in Vermont]

I've been thinking the (relatively) poor grouping was due to my part of the shooter/gun interface. The last time I put anything on paper I was getting 2½" at 25 yds. Those were 93 gr. Lee over 3.5 BE.

I had some other loads with me, 311440s over 19/4759 and wondered just what they would group and where they hit relative to the light loads.

SURPRISE!! Four went into one hole with one out about 3/4". I figured that was a fluke so I shot five more and got four touching with one out enough to stay within an inch again. So, maybe it's not my eyes after all.

Now I'm going to go back to lighter charges and work up with the emphasis on accuracy.

Also had the opportunity to chronograph the 93s over 3.0 and 3.5 BE as well as the 311440/19/4759 combo.

Lee 93/3.0/BE 862 fps with a spread of 49 fps.

Lee 93/3.5/BE, 967 fps, 89 fps spread

311440/19/4759 1390 av with spread of 53 fps.

It was gray and gloomy with a bitter wind gusting out of the northwest. Miserable enough conditions that I never considered trying to shoot groups.

We just had a truly gorgeous spell of weather, probably the last sunny, comfortably warm, calm days we will have for several months. Forecast is a bit vague but maybe a day or two next week that might be decent shooting conditions. I'm going to load a bunch of various charges and if the weather permits get them on paper to see if there are any trends as the charge changes. I'm also going to try match weighing some of the 311440s to see if there are wild weight changes that might account for the flyers with that load. If I could get rid of those flyers that would mean dime size groups which is nothing to sneeze at.

[oldarkie]

well you got me hooked. tried some loads yesterday cant stop grinning. wish i could still get herters primers for .35 cents a 100 . looks like its going to be a interesting,fun erpensive winter. thanks for all the good info.

[rintinglen]

I'd go with 3.2 gr Bullseye under that 93 gr Lee bullet. Tumle lightly in LLA and size at .311. A .31 cal M die will work a bit better than the .30 M die for the PB'd smallish .311 sized bullets.

Larry Gibson
+1
I've used 8.0 grains of Herco under a 311-245 95 grain round nose. Accuracy definitely improved when I went to the larger expander die. I wish Lyman still sold the expander bolt seperately. It would be a blessing.

[Greg]

rintinglen-

Call the nice Lady at Lyman-

I have ordered them in the past !

You’ll want the 'expanding plug complete', don’t forget the locknut…you can locktite or super glue the lock nut to the threaded stem once set up.

[saintdel]

I recently made the following post regarding indoor/backyard loads using round balls in another thread, but it seems to fit here, too, so here you go.

"... I found my old note book from the early 70's in which I recorded my experiments using a 20" barrel [Rem 600] and found the following data for round ball basement loads in 308. Shooting into phone books,

1g of BE penetrated 500 pages and was very quiet
1.5g BE penetrated 900 pages and was still quiet

I then held the rifle up to position the powder against the primer and

1.5g BE penetrated 3/4" plywood plus 970 pages of phone book.
2.0g BE penetrated 3/4" plywood plus 1000 pages of phone book, the ball being deformed.

At the range, 25 yards,

1g BE not accurate
1.4g BE went into 1.5"
1.7g BE went into 1.5"
2.0g BE went into 1.375"

I then later chronographed not the above loads, but rather

1.5g 700X which clocked 675fps.

None of this is to be taken as gospel as the total shots fired were few, but it is an indication of what can be expected. A
longer barrel would call for slightly higher charges I guess.

In any case, a 30 cal 43g rb at 675fps whizzng across your basement is not to be sneezed at. Do not underestimate the potential for damage or injury here. In fact, I strongly recommend you not try any of this [indoors].

Having said that, I also worked up (down) basement loads in my .222 using pulled [or possibly snipped] .22 long rifle bullets, and then later wad cutters from a home made mold. [1/4 to 3/8" aluminum plate drilled straight through, pivoting bottom plate.] .3g of PB (yes, 0.3) was the ticket there. Later I tried 22cal pellets with some success. But again, none of this is really practical. Lots of fun maybe, but not practical. Like Christmas trees, all of these guns and calibers are a lot bigger indoors than they seem outdoors."

[taco650]

What's the advantage of using Trailboss?

[dbosman]

What's the advantage of using Trailboss?

Bulk. Trailboss takes up more space than other pistol powders. Trailboss fills cases more uniformly.
A light load of Bullseye, for instance, takes up very little space. Powder can be piled up against the primer or distributed the length of the case. That produces variations in ignition, velocity, and thus accuracy.

One huge plus for some folks, is manufacturer supplied load data for reduced loads.
The data sheet says a full to the bottom of the bullet - load of Trailboss- is your maximum load.
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[taco650]

Bulk. Trailboss takes up more space than other pistol powders. Trailboss fills cases more uniformly.
A light load of Bullseye, for instance, takes up very little space. Powder can be piled up against the primer or distributed the length of the case. That produces variations in ignition, velocity, and thus accuracy.

One huge plus for some folks, is manufacturer supplied load data for reduced loads.
The data sheet says a full to the bottom of the bullet - load of Trailboss- is your maximum load.
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

OK, I get it now. I was wondering if those using the pistol powders put in a filler to hold the small charges against the primer or just let them go loose inside the case. THANKS!

[dbosman]

Fillers can work fine, but I'll take a bulkier powder with no filler.
In one of George Nonte's books, he mentions a filler load that took the case from the shoulder forward, with the filler.

[saintdel]

I have used small tufts of Dacron to hold small charges against the primer and it seems worthwhile.

[josleynrm]

I enjoy reading these posts lots of good info and experience. I have played with cat sneeze loads in the past. I took a Lee .458 500 grain cast RNFP, sized it to .452 and loaded it in a .45 Colt case over a pinch (sorry can't remember for certain the powder and charge. in my notes somewhere) of green dot? Seating bulged the case a little towards the web, but it still chambered. The velocity was slow enough that the boolit was visible when shooting into the light. Fired these out of my Handi Rifle, and it was about as loud as a pellet rifle would penetrate 3/4 inch plywood at about 25 yards. Accuracy was about 4 inches at that range.

Another thing I did and can't remember where I got the idea, was I took a 308 Win case, drilled out the flash hole so I could thumb seat a 209 primer flush with the head. I put 3 dents in the neck at the top of the shoulder with a punch and finger seated a lubed 1 buck. I fired these out of a cut down $25 Ishapore (homemade jungle carbine). It was quiet and an effective mouse sniping load for the shop. Of course the bore looks like a sewer pipe after firing just primers, but it cleans up easy and if a ball gets stuck, it's easy to push out.

[glw]

Hi Larry,

Thank you for the info on the 2.7g Bullseye load. I loaded some 30-30s for my kids with 2.7g Bullseye and the 90 grain Lee bullet sized to .3095. It shot great, and was a hit with the kids! I will certainly be loading more of them. The recoil was very light and fun factor was very high! It was a great way for them to learn good sight alignment and trigger control on a centerfire rifle.

Blessings,
Glenn

[smokeywolf]

You might take a look at this page http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf and in particular read the top 3 paragraphs. I've had pretty good results with the 60% rule that Hodgdon suggests regarding H4895. This formula is specific to cast boolit loads and is fairly accurate and very easy shooting in a Springfield 03.

smokeywolf

[taco650]

You might take a look at this page http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf and in particular read the top 3 paragraphs. I've had pretty good results with the 60% rule that Hodgdon suggests regarding H4895. This formula is specific to cast boolit loads and is fairly accurate and very easy shooting in a Springfield 03.

smokeywolf

Good info on that link. Thanks for posting it.

[elginrunner]

larry, in those 375's are you using a mag primer, or does it make a difference?

[35remington]

While a 60% charge of H4895 makes a fine reduced load per Hodgdon's recommendations, a mouse fart load in the '06 it most assuredly is not. Staying on topic on stickied threads is a good idea.

My own loading of MF loads in the '06 involves unsized cases and balls large enough to give a decent friction fit. Some experimentation in ball diameter, if you cast your own, is a good idea. Somewhere around .311 to .312" may work best, and varying alloy type may change the as cast diameter. Sizing dies may be needed in some instances.

I most often use 3 grains Bullseye and accuracy is decent from 30 yards in but starts to be unacceptable much further out. This still makes it suitable for a lot of shooting. A coat of LLA suffices.

[taco650]

I was reading in Handloader Digest recently that Accurate 5744 works well and isn't position sensitive.

[smokeywolf]

Sorry for the irritation 35remington. Could you please give me a specific definition for "mouse fart load"; velocity, pressure, something quantifiable. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice.

smokeywolf

[Mizzouboy]

Just for grins I loaded a few .243's for my stainless M77 Ruger using 95gr jacketed spitzers and a case just neck-full of Pyrodex. Almost no recoil and a muzzle report of a flat "plop", but actually pretty good accuracy out to 100 yds (as far as I shot it). Funny to see the cloud of smoke from a modern rifle... Several comments at range like "what the H-ll are you shooting???? (smile)

[dualsport]

IMR 4756 will work in this role.

[ironhead7544]

2 to 4 grains of Unique with a cast bullet will generally work with bottleneck centerfire cases.

[I'll Make Mine]

Could you please give me a specific definition for "mouse fart load"; velocity, pressure, something quantifiable.

Not to get into the middle of a staring match, but...

Loads variously called "mouse fart", "cat sneeze", etc. are generally defined as the quietest loads available in a given cartridge. The classics are for cartridges like 7.62x54R (the Finns worked up a bunch of nice quiet loads between wars), .30-06, or .303, i.e. the core WWI rifles, but you can create mouse fart loads for pretty much any rifle cartridge. Generally, they'll be either a very light or pretty heavy bullet; lighter bullets are generally quieter because it takes less pressure to move them out, and the original "cat sneeze" loads were round balls (i.e. about as light as you can go), but a heavy bullet well below Mach 1 is still a lot quieter than full power, yet still capable of much more effect than a very light bullet. They'll use a fast burning powder for position independence, clean burn, and so the powder is all burned and barrel pressure dropping off before bullet exit, and they'll generally be quietest in longer barrels because of the fast powder used.

The canonical mouse fart load, then, is a round ball (originally, sized a little smaller than a normal cast boolit), over the smallest charge of fast powder (Unique or faster, with Bullseye or Red Dot being very common choices) that will reliably clear the bore; the result can potentially be quieter than a .22 LR, accurate enough for squirrels and rabbits, and with maximum carry (due to combination of low muzzle velocity and low ballistic coefficient for a round ball) short enough to be safe in places where full power rifle loads would be irresponsible. There are lots of variations on this theme that can legitimately be called "mouse fart" loads; the primary quality is low noise.

[orbitalair]

I was reading in Handloader Digest recently that Accurate 5744 works well and isn't position sensitive.

Yup, A5744 is very good in light load conditions, I am using 23gr? in a 30-06 with 175gr lee bullet.
Its clean burning even tho it only fills 1/3 of the case. Its very cool too, I fired 10-13 rounds before the cases and barrel even got a discernable 'warm' to the touch feeling.

Its downside is its expensive. Buying bulk is still like $22-24/lb

Bullseye is probably still a better 'value' for the really light loads as being discussed.

[Outpost75]

Lee .311-230 Blackout bullet in .30-'06, cast from wheelweights, as-cast, unsized, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, no filler, Remington 9-1/2 primer, OAL 3.32", velocity 1058 fps,10Sd, 33ES. Is stable in common 10" twist barrel, accuracy equals military ball at 100 yards from my iron-sighted Boltgun using 7.8 grains of Alliant Bullseye!

[kaptain kartridge]

I shoot rifles on an indoor 50' range. My pet load is 6.0grs Unique, or Red Dot powder. 30-06 150gr cast .309, .303Brit 150gr cast .311, 35Rem 150gr cast .358, 7.62x54R 150gr cast .311, all loads are between 800-1000fps same load for .45-70 405gr cast, 30-40Krag 150gr .309. The only change is 7.62x39mm I use 3.0grs powder

[Outpost75]

+1 on everything that Larry said. This is exactly what I was taught by Col. E.H. Harrison and Frank Marshall, Jr., who worked with Col. Harrison as a Sgt. at Aberdeen Proving Ground in the early post WW2 era.

A light charge of Bullseye was standard for shooting test rounds in the transonic range for spark photography. The minimum charge for an APM2 bullet to exit the barrel is 6 grains in the '06. With soft, lubricated lead bullets such as #3118 or #308252 you can cut that in half.

However, the admonition NOT to attempt this with jacketed bullets cannot be emphasized strongly enough, as you risk lodging a bullet in the barrel, due to increased bore drag, combined with gas leakage around the bullet. When we had to shoot conventional bullets at low velocity for modelling drag we did so in a lightly oiled barrel, or at real ranges firing backwards into the transonic aerodynamic range at night capturing the rounds in plunging fire at 800-1000 yards, downloading them to simulate indirect fire ranges. Most of the artillery models simulating 120mm rounds were miniaturized and the electronics put into scale model 40mm, later 20mm rounds. Used 4895 in 20mm downloadings, similarly to how you would use Bullseye in a .30 cal. about 200 grains!


Jack

That load data was available 100+ years ago. Was loaded with a M1906 bullet and was known as a "Guard" load. If you read many of the old writers they used around 6 gr in the 30-30 under a 311291 or similar PB"d cast bullet or 6.5 - 7.5 gr in the '06 for use as a "foraging" or practice load. Whelen had a load he used in the M1903 with the 311008 loaded with a Ideal tong tool that was very similar.

As to a "rule of thumb" having shot lots of such in rifles over the years I've found that lighter weight pistol bullets most often shoot more accurately at 800 - 950 fps with such loads. Thus I use 2.7 gr Bullseye in cases from 7.62x39 to 300 Savage in capacity with 90 - 118 gr PB'd pistol bullets. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye in .308W to '06 capacity cases with the same bullets. Those 2 loads have always worked in any .30 or .31 cal rifle. In .35 call rifles I've found that 120 - 160 gr pistol bullets also are the most accurate in the 800 - 950 fps range. I use 4 - 6.5 gr with those in the .35 Rem, .358W and 35 Whelens. Case that show that speckled crack around the web expansion ring signaling incipient case head seperation that haven't actually seperated yet are great to use with these loads. There is no real psi and these cases get a new lease on life and last practically forever with these 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye loads under a 90 gr SWC or even the HBWCs sold by Hornady and Speer.

With low end loads rifle cast bullets I've found they shoot very accurately if cast soft and PB'd or GC'd at 1050 - 1200 fps, most often right around 1150 fps. I use Bullsey with those also using 6 - 8 gr depending on what it takes to get into that velocity range. Above 1200 fps Unique most often works better.

I also use light weight PB'd cast bullets in the 8x57, the .375 H&H and the 45-70. I use 6.5 gr+ depending on what is also needed to get the bullets to 1050 - 1200 fps. I do use 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H with a 375 RB lightly lubed with LLA for 900 fps and a very deadly small game load to 50-75 yards.

I also have used 200 gr .30 and 8mm very soft cast bullets loaded down to 300 fps with success although it takes about 500 fps to get to 50 yards with the ladder milsurp sights. Using 1.5 to 2.7 gr bullseye gets you to those low end "cat's sneeze" velocities. Bullets must be cast of pure lead or 40-1 or they may stick in the barrel. A ight coat of LLA is all that's need for lube. Also if a rimless case is used you might consider well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled (#30 - 28) to avoid the shortening of the cases headspace.

Larry Gibson

[ravelode]

My current 30-06 grouse load is a 311291 with GC on top of 8 grains of titegroup.

[typz2slo]

Has anyone used WSF for cast loads in a a 30-30? I have looked thru lots of forums and haven't found one. The reason being is that it won't work. I may have to just use my WSF for 9 and 40 and my tightly and red dot for the 30-30.

[selmerfan]

Well, I'm trying my hand at this, but with a .260 Rem with 1-8" twist and a 130 gr. RNGC boolit. I didn't have enough daylight to check accuracy, but I learned enough to know that 1 gr. Bullseye will drive the boolit a couple of inches into the bore, while 1.5 gr. Bullseye sends it out with a .22LRish report from my 17"MGM Encore barrel. I initially loaded up 2.5 gr. and 3.0 gr Bullseye, hoping they would be subdued, but I drove out into the country and touched a 2.5 gr. load off and it was definitely in the .22LR, maybe .22 RF Mag range in report. I'll hold off and check accuracy when I have daylight and it's not subzero outside....but zero recoil on the pistol, which is always fun!

[BrassFinger]

I just got into CB's for rifles, having picked up a very nice '71 hollow-bolt M77 in .30-06. I "needed" it to be able to put a nice collection of reloading equipment given to me to good use. Included were some 31141 130gr. and some 311041 173gr., both sized to .309. Unfortunately, while I have the 450 lubesizer, the molds and size dies are AWOL, which is the reason for this post.

This past weekend I took it to the range for the first time and put the following loads downrange: 130gr. with 7gr. Bullseye, 130gr. with 9gr. PB, and 173gr. with 15.5, 16 and 17gr. 2400. 10 pcs. were loaded for each combo, total of 50. The 130gr. loads shot well, grouping ~1.25" at 50 yds., but the 173gr. were tack drivers, with 20 rounds going into a hole a bit over 1" diameter at 50yds. I was just using a small sandbag at the front and not taking any particular care in my technique, so I certainly can't complain! Scope is the original Redfield 4x that's likely been on it since new.

When I loaded these up, I fiddled around with chambering a dummy round with bullet seated way out to see where it ended up, but ultimately decided to seat the boolits just until the grease grooves were covered, which was deeper than the dummy round seatings. Last night I tried another method I read here using my brass cleaning rod to measure the difference in distance to the bolt face to the tip of a lightly seated boolit in the throat. These measurements compared to the COAL of what I loaded were quite a bit longer (3.295 vs. 3.080 for the 311041 and 3.290 vs. 3.068 for the 31141).

I have read where for optimum accuracy with cast, the boolit should be seated to where it just touches the rifling. With the 311041, I can do that but it would leave at least the top lube groove exposed, maybe more. With the 33141, I don't know if there would be enough of it left in the neck to be useful. Since I need to buy a mold(s) to keep shooting cast once I run through this small stock, it appears I should look for a design over 170gr. for length and one that has a fat nose section to engage the rifling while maintaining a "decent" seating depth.

I'm partial to RCBS molds, and have been leaning towards the 180-SP or 165-SIL. However, I would like to consider a non-GC boolit for plinking duty like the 150-CM since sending gas checks downrange with <10gr. behind them is a waste. Either way, my choice is from whichever mold design maximizes the amount of boolit diameter seated outside of the case that can engage the rifling while having all of the lube grooves inside the neck. Suggestions? Having lube grooves outside the case only bothers me from an aesthetics point of view, but I'd rather not have a softer lube formula exposed to be smeared or melted everywhere.

-Chris

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

brassfinger , it depends what your looking for , if 50 yard bunny thunmpers is what your going for you can use the little 90gr lee tl314-90swc sized .311 seated all the way into the case ans crimped in the first tumble lube groove I tried longer but don't think at 25 or 50 yards the target can tell at these slow speeds or for a decent hunting load and fun farther distance practice load the c309-170rf but if you really want to get the nose out into the rifling the c309-200r2 will get you engraving on the nose easily in most 30-06 chambers

you can do mouse fart , or reduces loads with all of them

one of my favorite reduced loads with the 30-30 is 6.3 gr power pistol under the 309-170 with no gas check , it groups an inch to an inch and a half at 50 with iron sights and i can ring the 100 yard plate as many times as i want it is fun, clean ,low recoil and cheap

and the brass lasts and lasts

I run all three , the 309-200 is to long for 30-30 but the 309-170 is perfect for the 30-30 , the 314-90 works in most all 30 and 31 cal rifles depending how you size it


my only wish is that I could get all of these molds in a 6 cavity , and have the gc turned off 3 of the 309-170 cavities , but i am probably to cheap for a custom mold like that at least for now I will keep whacking the 2 cavity molds with the block of wood to open them

[BrassFinger]

Thanks for the info, GCPete. I pulled the trigger this week on the RCBS 165-SIL mold, .309 sizer die and some copper gaschecks from Sage's. I figure I can try loads without GC for plinking with 6 - 7 gr. of Red Dot, BE or PB. I have a group of brass that I'll be drilling out the flash holes for dedicated light load duty.

Also ordered some BAC lube from LsStuff after spending the other evening digging out some ancient solidified Lyman "Ideal" lube from my 450 sizer. That was the gummiest, nastiest cr*p I've had the pleasure of dealing with. I have a tube and a half of it yet (in the plastic tubes, so it's not THAT old) but no way I'm using it. Yuck. This the lube on all the 130gr. 31141 boolits I have, and while it's still soft, I can't see how it lubricates. It is akin to a cross between chewing gum and road tar. Maybe I should just melt them all down and turn them into 165-SIL boolits!

Chris

[Hooker53]

Before I start loading for this type of low presure 06 loads, is it possible to load this low and an auto action work?

[charlie b]

When you get really low, then no. Your semi-auto turns into a slide action. Not that big a deal when you have this much fun :D

[spotsboss]

...so much to shoot, so many rocks, pine cones and cow pies that need killin'.......:grin:

Larry Gibson

You too? Ha! If you have access to a wooded area, map out a trail and set up some targets along it (balloons, plastic bottles filled with water, etc). Go on a "hunt". For the most fun, take your grandson or granddaughter along. You take the target on the right, she'll take the left...

Bill

[Outpost75]

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi. -- Larry Gibson

Larry is correct. This site has good reduced load data for .30-'06 and other calibers:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

The data there don't go below 5 grains of Bullseye for 878 fps with a 170-grain LFN bullet in the '06, but I have gotten good results with Accurate 31-114D down to 4 grains of Bullseye, and with the lighter .32 ACP cast bullets or single-0 buck you can go down to 3 grains of Bullseye. Use standard large rifle primers, no filler required.

With heavier bullets such as Accurate 31-134D I get best results with 6 grains.

[LuckyDog]

Anyone have any good Brat recipes? Have some new grinding and stuffing toys. Will be making more burger and sausage, but would like to do some brats.

Do you mean Brauts?

I don't think that is what they meant when talking about mouse farts here. [smilie=s:

[trixter]

Larry Gibson:

Do you size the Lee TL 314-90-SWC, for shooting in the 30-06 (A3-03); if so what sizer do you use? Just wondering if you size it down too far won't it squash most of the micro lube grooves? If it does, is it a problem?

[Hamish]

Do you mean Brauts?

I don't think that is what they meant when talking about mouse farts here. [smilie=s:

"Brauts"?

Braut means fiance, I hope you're not making brats out of your Brauts,,,,,,,

(Languages are funny things, put it with "wurst" and you've got "fried meat", but by itself, it means fiance. Go figure.)

[just1man]

Larry is correct. This site has good reduced load data for .30-'06 and other calibers:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

The data there don't go below 5 grains of Bullseye for 878 fps with a 170-grain LFN bullet in the '06, but I have gotten good results with Accurate 31-114D down to 4 grains of Bullseye, and with the lighter .32 ACP cast bullets or single-0 buck you can go down to 3 grains of Bullseye. Use standard large rifle primers, no filler required.

With heavier bullets such as Accurate 31-134D I get best results with 6 grains.
Great site! Thank you for posting the link.

Would there be much load variation for 308 vs 06? You mention no fillers required. Does this hold true no matter the barrel position (shooting downhill for example)? You mention large primers, do you also drill the flash hole larger for these loads?

Sorry for the slew of questions! Planning to do some loading this weekend and would like to do it as "right" as possible.
Thank you

[crashguy]

I have this posted in the Military rifle forum too.. but ..I got such a kick out of these i wanted to share.

For me it was 8 g of BE under a Lee 312-155- 2R (range scrap GC , PC and sized .309 at 162g) in a M1903 (circa 1934 with an original and beat up 4 groove barrel) Rang in at 1250 fps avg SD 6 with a group under 2in at 50 yards of a rest w/ battle sight POA=POI. Not a flake of PC showed in the bore in 20 rounds.
Just for a kick I loaded some Lee 314-90-swc (range scrap, PC, sized .309 at 94g) over 3.5 of BE for 960 avg . Sub 2in at 50 off rest Battle Sight POA=POI.... boy oh boy did they look ridiculous stuffed into that 30-06 case... but ... I will tell you this ..I giggled when they went off.

[Houlton]

I used 22gr 2400 under a 173 gas check flat nose. Very accurate. Put fiberfill to fill the case. Someone made the comment on another thread that it looks like you are shooting a chicken. Look under the thread '06 I started earlier. Gentleman recommended 8.5 of WST and posted some very impressive targets to show why he liked WST.

[cosmoline one]

Anyone using 700x w/these loads? I've had good success w/30-30 155-170 PB bullets. I'm just starting in 7.62x54r & 7.62x39

[Jack Stanley]

I used some 700-X in the 30 WCF a long time ago but haven't tried it in the aught six as of yet . I don't see why it wouldn't work pretty well I use it for reduced in other rounds and it does well .

Jack

[Outpost75]

....Would there be much load variation for 308 vs 06? You mention no fillers required. Does this hold true no matter the barrel position...You mention large primers, do you also drill the flash hole larger for these loads? Sorry for the slew of questions!....Thank you

Smaller case volume of .308 requires full grain charge reduction from '06!

.30-30 data is good for starting cat sneeze loads in .308. Reduce the .30-30 data a full grain for 7.62x39.

DO NOT enlarge flash holes. Doing so is Unnecessary and is unsafe if you inadvertently mix up cases and put a full charge in.

With the fast-burning pistol and shotgun powders no filler is necessary or recommended. Doing so raises pressure and you can ring the chamber neck of an '06 in doing so, which I have done...

[Bodean74]

Trying the bullseye load next weekend looking forward to seeing how it does

[clearcut]

I just worked up a load with 8 grn. Tite Wad 68grn PC'd gas checked .224's . I'm shooting these in a 1:7 twist AR, single shot style. What a hoot!

CC

[Kestrel4k]

Am interested in trying .309" 110-120gr in a .308Win, but had two questions for the folks here:

I have plenty of both Bullseye and Red Dot; I'm inclined to start with RD first as I think it may be a better choice. Any other opinions?
Also, what might be a maximum charge to maintain subsonic velocities? I'm guessing ~4 grs of BE.

Thanks,

[Mauser48]

I'll make my contribution to this excellent thread. This load is not really super light like a mouse far load, more like a opossum fart load. It consists of a lee c309-113 bullet tumble lubed and gas checked on 10 grains of 700x with winchester large rifle primers. Seat depth 2.870. I managed a 0.473 inch group at 35 yards with it. I think it's around 1600 fps. Great 100 yard load to practice shooting prone, standing, etc. I use it in my 1903-A3. A member here sent me the bullets to try. After a lot of research I found some data. I'm going to start casting these soon myself.

[cast367]

In my 308 and 30-06 I use the rcbs 180 grs ans the lyman 311399. Powder: VV N110, N120,and Lovex D060.Sized 309 .No filler .
Weelweigt ,+5% Tinn + 30% printlead. Alu and Saga GC.
Gives an exelent result.

[Kennet]

7.5 grns of trail boss and the Lee 113 gr bullet has been a standard carry for years in my pack. I've shot it out to 200 yards with good accuracy and have head shot a fair number of tree rats in closer. The load is just plain fun !!

[Rich/WIS]

I use 5.0 gr Bullseye with the NOE 311-115 in 06 and 30/40 AI. Not sure of velocity but definitely subsonic and accurate at 25-50 yards.

[Kennet]

I've been making mouse fart 30 06 loads for a few decades using unique ,2400 ,4756 ,herco,and trail boss. I'm sure many shooters have done the same. Where i seem be different with mine is bullet weight . Mostly using 77 gr 32 pistol bullets. I've gotten several recipes to shoot well enuf to use for squirrel with confidence.Shooting 1 inch groups at 50 yrd. 4756 with 3.5grns and no fillers is a favorite giving great groups with minimal reports sounding like a 22 rim fire short.

[Alferd Packer]

I have purchased a NOE 30 caliber airgun pellet mold which shows the skirts to be .308 caliber at a weight of 59 grains. The .22 pellets being shot from the 22 centerfires with primers, some using cases drilled out for. 209 shotshell primers and even some with .5 grains to 1.0 grains of Bullseye seem to work well and quieter than other loads, I aim to try 30 caliber pellets in my 30 cal. Central fires in a similar manner. I just wanted to post this so maybe someone else could also have a go at this and keep this wonderful thread alive. I'm old and getting slow so it may be a little while before I post a result so in the meantime you others get on the stick and beat me to it with some results.

[Alferd Packer]

Please read the book about The White Sniper, Finnish sniper who was a reloader of catsneeze loads and used them to great effect during the Russian invasion of Finnland.
He crept up in the night and popped the Russians with head shots using only open sighted Moisin Nagant 7.62 from 25 to 75 yards away while they sat round a roaring big fire drinking vodka trying to keep warm at night behind the front lines. They were freezing cold and couldn't even hear the mousefart loads he used with 220 grain jacketed bullets loaded over tiny loads of blank powder . In those days the Finns in the National Guard issued loading equipment to their men and encouraged their men to learn how to shoot by showing them how. Later on the Russians used the same tactics against the Nazi hordes that invaded Russia. The Russian guerillas would sit in trees overhead the Nazi Panzers with their roaring engines and shoot catsneeze/mousefart loads down into the top of the Nazism riding on their tanks and they would just slump over asleep. They would be a hundred yards away with only a tiny hole in the top of the helmet or head before being discovered falling off the tank. Not knowing they were shot from overhead. The Finns and the Russians also used round ball loads as well by breaking down pistol ammo to get a small fast powder charge to load their lead and jacketed loads. The catsneeze/mousefart loads were used to great effect in all wars since the first World War till now. They are still in use today. It is a secret that only handloaders and knowledgeable rifleshooters share.
Nuff said. You get the rest if you are reading this.

[Alferd Packer]

Simo Hayha ,with umlauts above the o and a's in his name, is the name of the Finnish sniper known as "White Death".

[trapper9260]

Alferd that is interesting of what was done during the wars. Thank you for shearing it .

[Alferd Packer]

Sorry about all the blather but my my Dad always said knowledge taken to the grave is just wasted. So please share.

[barrabruce]

I read the book "the white sniper"
Didn’t mention using the use of reduced loads or shooting from tops of trees either.
There maybe a few books written about his and his platoons endeavours thou.

[Alferd Packer]

Hi Bd

Hi Bruce,
The White Sniper mentions the guard units issuing reloading gear and supplies to the members along with instruction by older members.
The Russians were the enemy during the winter war.
In the 1960's I had access to the Library at West Point Academy in New York and Ft. Benning,GA
They have books and books and films that explain and educate interested soldiers on various forms of warfare . .
The White Sniper actually said Simo never shot from up in a tree down into the enemy, but other books on guerilla warfare do say that hollowed out trees were used for observation and sniping many times during the first World War as well as the Second and on up till the present day.
The use of Spider Holes were used by the Japanese to shoot attacking soldiers from behind as they bypassed camouflaged enemy emplacements on the Islands. American Indians were known to have used the same tactics in wars with each other and the white man.
Over fifty years ago i was priveleged to meet and talk to many of the soldiers who were there in the wars and conflicts and would answer my questions about how things were done.
At the time, some of those who were there said there are a lot of secret things that should not be made public knowledge as the enemy can use them against us in time of war.
The few things i have mentioned here are common knowledge and are pretty widely
known by combat veterans i think.
I got to talk to some vets from Finnland who emigrated to the US due to have served in the US Armed Forces in WW2.*

[Alferd Packer]

The people who grew up in Finnland and lived outside the cities are just like the people who grew up in Alaska outside the cities.They know about guns and reloading and how to survive in the forest and bush in winter and summer . The White Sniper was one of these, but trained for war as well. He said he just did his job the best he knew how.

[olgandalf]

Last night I made two rounds 8mm Mauser, a 22lr case of Bullseye (3.3 gn) and a 87 gn round nose for 32 ACP that I made from a Lee 311-93 mold and lubed with Johnson's paste wax. I shot one this morning at 50 feet in my Turk Mauser and hit below the target. Still, it left the barrel and was quieter than a 22. I made 3 more before 10 AM, the canonical hour that my 2 or 3 geezer friends and I shoot in my back yard. Each guy got a round, and after each shot I slid the ramrod down to make sure the boolit exited. The other guys got much better accuracy than I. Well.

[Jniedbalski]

Isint the lee .311 93 to small a diameter for a 8 mm Mauser? I use that bullet in a savage axis 308 with 3.2 of bullseye sized to .311. It shoots great.

[Alferd Packer]

You can paper patch any of the 30 caliber and get them to fit the 8mm bore for shooting.Paper patching done correctly shrinks the patch tightly onto the bullet like a second skin.
You got to work with it until you understand it.
It doesn't work very well if you just give it a one time try. Read up on it and work with it and you will begin to see why its useful.
The bullets I paper patched were 150 and 170 grain 30 cal.bullets to use in an 8mm rifle barrel. Never tried a short bullet like a 93 grain 32 caliber. I would be tempted to roll two of them butted base to base and thereby have a longer bullet to work with.
No reason why it wouldn't work for short range shooting.
Experimenting is what it's all about for fun.
I was considering wrapping aluminum foil tightly around a .30 caliber bullet and then a paper patch for the finish.
Would aluminum foil scratch the bore?
Maybe all foil?
Never know till its tried and tested.

[popper]

Years ago I found lots of articles (original) of the Dane and Fin 'irregulars' and their training, loading. Used lots of light load wood projectiles for 'quiet' loads in the woods so no-one would hear them shooting. Powder and primers were scarce as was brass. Never sized, just punch primer and reload. Hid the rifles in the woods. Better training than just pointing a stick of wood. Became good at pilfering ammo from the enemy.

[303Guy]

You can paper patch any of the 30 caliber and get them to fit the 8mm bore for shooting.
I have a recovered paper patched boolit that still wears its paper jacket. The trick is to patch up to seat in an unsized neck. This should align the boolit with the throat and bore. Using the same load and patched boolits in another rifle, I got center of beer can accuracy at 50 yds. From my testing I would think that patching a 30 cal bullet or boolit up to fit the 8mm neck might well keep the patch on with cat sneeze loads. Maybe specifically 'design' the patch to stay on. Like glue between the laps or use a tougher paper. I used good old cheapo printer paper and that stayed on, even through the catch medium.

[mike britton]

I don't think I'm hijacking here, I'm not up on forum etiquette. If I am, scold me and school me.
I just bought a Handi-rifle in .30-06 and I was scouring my reload data for reduced loads.

I shoot a lot at the local indoor range and was checking out the 125 gr. bullets for slow stuff.
My question is, I don't have a lot of cast bullets left and they are all 170 gr. How slow can I go with the easy to get 125 gr. jacketed bullets? Is there any danger in pushing the jacketed bullets out the tube with light loads?
It is fun to take my big bores (.30 and bigger) to the indoor range and just bang away. Most of it offhand standing just for the fun of it. I get to feel recoil and get a rifle dirty. My late wife always said the only reason I go to the range is so I can clean a rifle afterwards!
I see almost every bullet maker has a 3031 load for their 125 gr. bullets. 3031 is one of my favorite powders.
Have any of you tried going slow with jacketed bullets? Thanks, Mike

[black mamba]

Check out this article about "The Load."

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The%20Load.htm#:~:text=%22The%20Load%22%20is%20ful ly%20comparable%20to%20%22yesterday%27s%20deer,rif les%20pick%20up%20a%20few%20feet%20per%20second.

[mike britton]

Thanks for that! I think I have some red dot!

[mike britton]

Hey guys! I'm back!
If I wanted to buy ready made cast boolits from the big stores, any suggestions on what brand and gr. weight for .30-06 you all like?
I used to cast my own BP stuff, but I'm not sure I can even find my casting equipment any more so I was thinking of buying ready made cast.
I have a handful of 170 gr. .30-30 flat nose I could use, they would be great for short range paper punching. But they were given to me and I have no idea whose they are.
I intend to load .30-30 loads in my 06, so....what is out there I can pick up from say, Cabela's?
Also, do I need to pack some sort of wad over that load in the big 06 case?
Thanks in advance, Mike

[Larry Gibson]

mike

Since this thread is about "mouse fart" loads I suggest any cast 32 caliber [.311 - .314] pistol bullet of 77 - 115 gr weight. If larger than .312 simply size in a .311 or .312 push through sizer. If unlubed lube them first. Then load over 3.2 gr of Bullseye.

For 30-30 level loads in your '06 any 150 - 180 gr .30 caliber [.309 - .311] cast bullet will do (when buying commercial). There is a plethora of data available already for such cast bullet loads in the 30-06 (Lyman #3 and #4 CBH). For jacketed loads just use max 30-30 loads of powders such as 3031 and 4895 in your '06 as start loads and work up to what you want. In the '06 case the max 30-30 loads will give much less velocity and pressure than in the 30-30.

[Ford SD]

I have read this thread about one a year (winter reading) for the last several years

I now have 2 new rifles and thinking about making my powder last and I do not need full powder loads to put holes in paper

1st new rifle 444 marlin / 20 twist I have the lyman 429667 mold..... only 44 cal mold i have have some plated 240g i bought $90/500

2nd new rifle 35 whelen have a bunch of 38 cal Pistol moulds and the 35xcb mould (360-230-fn-Au1)

Thes rifles are so new I have not fired them... because of, Covid, work, doing house repairs, Snow drifts and not being able to buy ammo for them

any Ideas for cat sneeze loads for these 2

also a range day might be 100 plus rounds through 1 rifle .... can you imagine 100 full house 444 loads .... my shoulder

one day 1 did 200 full cast 308 which was too much off a sand bag for my arthritic body

Thanks

[Alferd Packer]

Hi Ford
You can download Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual No. 3 for free. Just Google it.
The manual is a must to help you get a handle on how cast bullets and the powders relate.
The loads in the cast bullet manual for starting and maximum loads are a good guide for starting to shoot cast bullets.

[farmbif]

ford sd you might try 30 grains of 4198 under a 200 grain cast bullet in the 35 whelen, ive been shooting 444 with a deep seated 432640 with 33-35 grains of 8208

[Alferd Packer]

I have read this thread about one a year (winter reading) for the last several years

I now have 2 new rifles and thinking about making my powder last and I do not need full powder loads to put holes in paper

1st new rifle 444 marlin / 20 twist I have the lyman 429667 mold..... only 44 cal mold i have have some plated 240g i bought $90/500

2nd new rifle 35 whelen have a bunch of 38 cal Pistol moulds and the 35xcb mould (360-230-fn-Au1)

Thes rifles are so new I have not fired them... because of, Covid, work, doing house repairs, Snow drifts and not being able to buy ammo for them

any Ideas for cat sneeze loads for these 2

also a range day might be 100 plus rounds through 1 rifle .... can you imagine 100 full house 444 loads .... my shoulder

one day 1 did 200 full cast 308 which was too much off a sand bag for my arthritic body

Thanks
<<<<<&&&<<<&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&<<<<&

The answer is for you to download the cast bullet manual no3 Lyman.
FREE just google it.
loads for both your new rifles and the starting loads aren't catsneeze but they are very lite all using cast bullets.

[Alferd Packer]

I like printer paper.
It resists tearing apart when wet and is tuff when dried out.
Good for paper patch bullets.Imho.

[Rochester]

Since this thread is about "mouse fart" loads I suggest any cast 32 caliber [.311 - .314] pistol bullet of 77 - 115 gr weight. If larger than .312 simply size in a .311 or .312 push through sizer. If unlubed lube them first. Then load over 3.2 gr of Bullseye.


I am pretty inexperienced at reloading, even though I’m an old fart. I bought the equipment and supplies to load 38 special because I’ve had such a hard time finding ammo. Anyway, I don’t deer hunt anymore, but I won’t get rid of my Colt bolt action 30.06 because my dad gave it to me 56 years ago. He was heavily into reloading, but passed a couple of years ago at 94 yrs old. These loads sound perfect for plinking with that rifle! I’ve got Bullseye for the 38sp loads. Do I use large rifle primers? Also, you previously mentioned drilling out primer holes with I believe a #29 drill. Is this recommended for this load? I’m not interested in casting, but I ordered .357 LSW bullets from Rimrock in Montana, and I see they have .313 cast bullets And I could buy a resizing die. I use a Lee hand press. Would resizing with this from .313 down to .311 be doable? Thanks for the information!

[Pepe le PewPew]

Hi Team!
Have any of you tried these loads with the Swiss K31? I was reading this thread and the thought of using them in one of the -‘06 or 30-30s.Case volume not to much off of 308. But just now I thought why not my K31? Beautiful gun that just sits in my safe since I don’t have a ton of ammo for it. And if you all know of a PB mold for a light tumble lube bullet (Lee, Arsenal, Accurate, etc) that might work for all three (fit leade etc, I know accuracy is whatever it will be). If it could cheaply pokes holes in paper or hunt rabbits and tree squirrels? What’s not to like. Have lots off WW, and over 20lbs of 700x. I do have a pound of Bullseye, but if the 700 can work WELL (I don’t like shooting just to pull the trigger) all the better.
Thx!
Steve

[Alferd Packer]

Drilling out the primer hole only refers to enlarging the flash hole in the bottom of the primer hole.
This is done only for the cat's sneeze loads.
The actual hole the primer is seated in remains the same.
Thus if the case used large primers, it still uses them and in the small .223 cases, it still uses the small rifle primer.

[Alferd Packer]

Another thing I would like to expand on is paper patching small diameter bullets to shoot in a larger diameter barrel.
You should try to stay as close to the caliber the barrel is cut rifling for.
The paper patch starts off as a tight fitting minimal two wraps and can be shot at hi- velocity compared to the mouse fart low noise,low velocity ammo.
When I spoke of patching a 30 caliber round, meaning the 308 series being patched to shoot in a .323 bore for example.
Well, that is more of a saboted round to be fired at low noise, and low velocity.
You could for example, fill a
323 Bullet mold with hot plastic glue and quickly press a .308 bullet into the hot glue and have a glue saboted .308 Bullet in a .323 plastic sabot , once the glue set up.
The above mentioned Bullet would displace the hot glue out of the mold and leave the Bullet encased in the plastic .323 sabot.
Getting the .308 bullet centered perfectly in the .323 sabot doesn't hurt when used in a low velocity,low noise ammo load.
The same goes for a paper patched bullet over two wraps. Almost a paper mache sabot to fit the bore, but will work in a mousefart load.
Thus the idea was born to try paper mache checks put on as wet plaster-like consistency and allowed to shrink- dry and then lubed and sized.
Maybe lightly sized when still wet, or just pressed on the base and shrink dried.
This has been cussed and discussed by my friends. I have to remind them .We are talking mousefart loads in this string. Almost anything can be used as a projectile in a mousefart load.

[Krag 1901]

I recently bought some 120 gr .32-20 boolets from Brazos and resized them in my .311 die for my .30-40 and loaded them with ~7.6 gr 700X. Which is what my #16 rotor drops with my Lil' Dandy measure. At 50 yds they shot well (X ring'd) and for 850 boolets PC'd with Hy-teck they were CHEAP. They sell them by the pound not the count.
The velocity was about 1,400 fps and seemed to me to be a great "possum load". I reloaded 50 to try at 100 yds next time I go out. No leading and good accuracy and if yu can find primers, no recoil.