Antique Musket

[Beekeeper]

My Son in law is bringing back from Colorado a 1842 Springfield Musket.
Supposed to be an ancesters rifle ( don't know for sure)
Was in brothers home and brothers wife and brother hate firearms.
Son in law wants me to restore it!!?
Says there is no bayonet and barrel bent near Muzzle due to Brother wanting it to never be able to shoot again.

Never seen one and am looking for advice as to what to do to it as far as cleaning and preservation.
Can barrel be straightened?
Do not know condition of finish and wouldn't even try to change it but how to preserve what is there?

Anyone got any advice?


beekeeper

[gnoahhh]

Best bet would be to wait until its in your hands, then post some pics of it. Betcha you get all kinds of advice then.

[Mooseman]

The barrel is Iron and can be straightened by a professional...Best on the antiques is just leave them alone as much as possible...do not touch the finish on the wood or metal...just keep it oiled.
You can ruin any value it may have if you dont know what to do or not to do.

Rich

[Bob Krack]

Not positive, but I think Ric (Waksupi) has an awful lot of knowledge on that.

Bob

[gnoahhh]

That barrel is steel, not iron, albeit very low carbon mild steel. Had I known, I wouldn't have sold an 1842 parts gun with a decent barrel last week.

[3006guns]

I'm curious........is this your brother or the son in law's brother? In any case you should call him and tell him you'll be right out, to bend the front of his brand new car because you feel it "should never be able to drive again......."


No offense intended, just a tongue in cheek remark about how some people do the silliest things sometimes.

[Beekeeper]

3006guns,
Son in laws brother who lives in Colorado.
Told Son in law he was going to take it to the recyclers but they wouldn't take (Gun you know).
Son in law knows I love a challange and love old guns so he snapped it up and is bringing it back to Ca. for me.
Will get it sometime in the next couple of weeks when we go to see them.

Mooseman,
Sorry to disappoint you but not sending it to Alaska for a professional Gunsmith to work on. Will just have to muddle through with the lesser class Gunsmiths here in California..
Just a simple question for you if I may, What makes you think I am unqualified to work on the Musket to start with? You know nothing about my abilities or qualifications!

OK Ric ,
You can give me a time out now I have had my say!!


beekeeper

[PanaDP]

I bet the offending brother's head would be the perfect anvil to bend it back into shape.

[runfiverun]

i'm not that far from comorado.
i could explain the word's ANTIQUE and HISTORY to him if you's like.
by the way waksupi is in montana..

[405]

Blasphemy!- bending the barrel of a piece of history... if I'm not mistaken, the last regulation 69 cal smooth bore model. Made at both SA and HFA :(

I've never tried it but if there is no kink in that bend and given that it is a smooth bore maybe it could straightened enough to shoot. A good mandrel plus some gentle peening while heating. Dunno- just a thought. I know it's done with shotguns.

[waksupi]

I wouldn't even hazard an opinion without seeing pictures.

[Beekeeper]

Well I got it from SIL today.
Bad but not as bad as I expected!
Got some of its history as well.
Grandfather lived in Wisconsin
When he sold his farm and moved to the city he became a meter reader, you remember them I hope.
Anyway an old man on his route when moving gave it to grandfather.
Stayed in basement until his death and son brought it to Colorado.
When son died Grandson took it and put it in his basement.
My SIL got it from him as he knew I liked to work on old guns.
No one knows anything about it other than what stated.
Here are some pics.
Can get more pics or info once I have it cleaned up a little.
The stock is very dry and has shrunk is about all I can tell at this time.
One of the pic shows the bend in the barrel, it is about 8 inches from the muzzle

[waksupi]

Okay, it's toast!
[smilie=l:
The only thing I would do with it, is to put some furniture wax on it, and find a place to hang it on the wall. Don't do anything else to it. The only real value is to a relic collector, who may give you a bit for it. It may well be a battlefield pickup, and have value that way.

[gnoahhh]

Ditto.

[59sharps]

Well I got it from SIL today.
Bad but not as bad as I expected!
Got some of its history as well.
Grandfather lived in Wisconsin
When he sold his farm and moved to the city he became a meter reader, you remember them I hope.
Anyway an old man on his route when moving gave it to grandfather.
Stayed in basement until his death and son brought it to Colorado.
When son died Grandson took it and put it in his basement.
My SIL got it from him as he knew I liked to work on old guns.
No one knows anything about it other than what stated.
Here are some pics.
Can get more pics or info once I have it cleaned up a little.
The stock is very dry and has shrunk is about all I can tell at this time.
One of the pic shows the bend in the barrel, it is about 8 inches from the muzzle

If you wanted to and i say if. you do not want to hing it on the wall and would like to make it into something you could shoot you could do a Macon conversion. you would need to get a replacement stock for it and have the barrel cut to proper length. there are 3 different conversions. check the N-ssa. org sight for a list of sutlers. and there BB someone may have a stock for sale. contact John Holland for the spec sheet on conversions. Barel lengths are 34 & 30 ".It may take a week to get a reply. nationals are this week and he and other are in Va. until the 2oth or 21st.

[405]

Yep. That's too bad, a sure 'nuff wall hanger. I might use acetone and get that tape mark, glue mark or whatever it is off the wrist first then slop some wax or light oil on the whole gun and call it good.

[bob208]

i think it is a 1842 it would be a 69 cal. smothbore. that barrel could be made to shoot again. it would take a lot of work but it could be done.

[gnoahhh]

I wouldn't fire that gun for all the tea in China, even if the barrel were straightened, without first giving it a thorough inspection top to bottom. Judging from the overall condition of the poor thing, I wouldn't be surprised to find deep pits way down in that bore, not to mention the condition of the breech plug threads, which would be a total deal breaker as far as shooting it goes. Not much value in the heavily rusted/pitted external parts either. If it were mine I might consider straightening the barrel in a half-arsed manner and throw a coat of linseed oil on it and hang it on the wall. At most, possibly a blank charge to salute the Fourth of July.

[Janoosh]

Just a simple question: How would you straighten the barrel? I've read that a barrel can be straightened by slapping it down on a sand bag. Does this work? Or is it done hydraulically? Stock is DRY. In my younger days I would've said "Sure I'll shoot it". I'm a little more cautious now. You can go first! LOL. Beeman, pictures after you've done your best!

[Lead Fred]

Never shoot a lap welded old barrel like that, it will blow apart.
A Wall Hanger is what that is now.

[405]

I wouldn't shoot it either based on its "relic" condition. But I don't follow the "lap welded" part. ???

[bob208]

the barrel would strightened in a barrel press. the muzzle would strightened with a swage. same as any shotgun barrel. hen it would be unbreached and checked for pits. if it was found not to be sound it would be relined.

another way if the muzzle end is too thin. is to cut it off under the middle barrel band and reline and extend the barrel back to length. i have helped do many 55,61 and 63 springfields that way. ones that were cut and reamed to shotguns.

both of the repairs are nssa approved.

[405]

I guess it could be brought back enough to shoot a couple of times but the effort and $ wouldn't seem to justify it. If the breech end, plug and nipple are strong enough for a light charge of powder and shot and even if it had a slight bend ...might shoot it using a tire and string. And it may not even matter much if the barrel was originally skelp forged or cast.... which type may depend on barrel date. That was about the time the barrel making transition was beginning. I don't know the exact dates the national armories, Springfield and Harpers Ferry, started the transition. That's also within the time frame much of the raw material was still coming out of England.

[waksupi]

Do not even think about shooting it. Period.

[gnoahhh]

'42 barrels were drilled/reamed from solid bar stock. Not forge welded.

[405]

I knew that Remington had developed a vertical boring system for "cast steel" early on during the transition. Didn't know if Spr. or HF armories were also boring stock in the 1844-1855 time frame. Good info and thanks for posting!

[Beekeeper]

Well that's what Waksupi named it and it has stuck!
Have it disassembled and most of the metal parts through the electrolisis tank to get the unbeleivable amount of rust off of them.
Lock is in suprizingly great shape altho it is a 1847 plate with 1842 innards.

Now for the fun part!!
I think it is loaded!
Put the ramrod down the barrel and it will not touch bottom.
Misses it by about 1 1/2 inch.
Am going to make a screw jag when I have time and see if I can get whatever is in there out..
Whatever it is is hard! And will not budge with 120 lb air pressure on the nipple.

Stay tuned to find the latest about "Toast"


beekeeper

[gnoahhh]

Yep, probably loaded. Flood it with oil and let it soak, to de-activate the powder before trying to manhandle that old charge out of there. A gunsmith friend made the classic dumb elbow mistake of not checking for a load in a M1861 barrel that for some unknown reason he was trying to un-breech by heating with a torch. Oxy-acetylene heat is a wonderful detonator. Imagine the surprise, not to mention the astonishing hole it put in the cinder block wall.

[405]

Lock is in suprizingly great shape altho it is a 1847 plate with 1842 innards.

beekeeper

Normal on the dates. It is a Model 1842 musket. The lock and barrel could have dates ranging from 1844-1855. Could even have mixed dates between lock and barrel. "Parts is parts" if it were ever re-built during its lifetime. Could even have some earlier flint era parts as some were the same. If the barrel date and lock date are only a year apart then possibly never rebuilt. May have been assembled that way at either Springfield or Harpers Ferry.

[dualsport]

I have come across what I think is a 1842 US Springfield but it has a .58 rifled barrel. Were they all .69 smoothbore?

[fouronesix]

I think all M1842s started out as 69 cal smoothbore. During the Civil War some were converted to 69 cal rifle. No telling about the rifled 58 cal. It could be most anything. I wouldn't doubt Bannerman put together various combinations that would include M1842 parts with 58 cal rifled barrels. The other possibility would be an M1851 Cadet Musket made for West Point which would have been 58 cal and rifled.

[Southron]

Danny Whitacre can make you a new 1842 barrel from scratch-smoothbore or rifled...your choice. He could also repair the original barrel. A lot of people buy a new barrel from him, install it in their original '42 and shoot that barrel-putting the original barrel away and saving it.

Here is his website:

http://whitacresmachineshop.com/

As for that IDIOT that tried to "scrap" that historic gun...he should be horse whipped.

[dualsport]

Thanks for the info and link. I'm not too sure what the heck I've got. A inlaw spotted it in a corner of an old barn and paid $100 for it. I wish I could post a picture but it is apparently a mixmash job. The barrel turned out to be a .54, rifled, marked 1846 and has the 'V' 'P' under "JH' and almost identical to a .58 Zouave repro barrel outwardly. The lock is almost the same also as the Zouave, but marked Springfield 1848. The stock was bubba'd long ago and even has brass tacks and many notches in the trigger guard too. I couldn't resist and shot it, first with 10 gr. 2f and a paper ball. Ended up at 25 gr. 2f and a patched round ball. Went boom and the ball bounced down range aok. For it's age the bore has some shine left in it. I've seen a lot worse. Now I'll return it to my inlaw and tell him to just admire it, no shooting. Who knows what the old girl's been thru?

[varsity07840]

Thanks for the info and link. I'm not too sure what the heck I've got. A inlaw spotted it in a corner of an old barn and paid $100 for it. I wish I could post a picture but it is apparently a mixmash job. The barrel turned out to be a .54, rifled, marked 1846 and has the 'V' 'P' under "JH' and almost identical to a .58 Zouave repro barrel outwardly. The lock is almost the same also as the Zouave, but marked Springfield 1848. The stock was bubba'd long ago and even has brass tacks and many notches in the trigger guard too. I couldn't resist and shot it, first with 10 gr. 2f and a paper ball. Ended up at 25 gr. 2f and a patched round ball. Went boom and the ball bounced down range aok. For it's age the bore has some shine left in it. I've seen a lot worse. Now I'll return it to my inlaw and tell him to just admire it, no shooting. Who knows what the old girl's been thru?

You have an 1841 Mississippi Rifle. They were .54 cal. for patched round ball. Many of them were freshed out to.58 and rifled with 3 groove progressive depth rifling for a minie ball and equipped with several different types of rear sights. They saw service in the Civil War. The 1841 was built by a number of contractors including Remington. The Zouave is a development of the 1841, hence the similarity.

Duane

[Beekeeper]

I had completely forgotten about this post.
"Old Toast" has ben completed and is the only gun that will ever hang on my wall.
The only parts required to make it complete were a trigger spring and a nipple.
After being unable to get the charge out of it I tried to remove the Nipple that someone had used pliers on( wound up drilling it out) and had to clean out the flash hole in the barrel.
With 120 lb air pressure was able to blow out the barrel obstruction.
" It really was loaded" and I recovered the powder charge but never found the ball as it went 1/2 block down the street.
The stock was repaired using bamboo skewers and acraglass.
The barrel was straightened using wooden blocks and a small press.
Muzzle was straightened using a (very large) punch
The stock was treated with BLO to the tune of almost a quart as it soaked it up faster than I could put it on.
I tried to clean the bore but was unable to get the breach plug out so gave up rather than ruin what was there.
Used a 12 guage brush and a lot of Eds Red to get as much rust out of the barrel as possible and gave it an extreme coat of oil.

It now proudly hanges on the wall in my office.
It reminds me ever so often of our history and what it cost to be free.


beekeeper

[Cactus Farmer]

Pictures,pictures ,pictures,it didn't happen without pictures. I would like to see how it turned out........

[fouronesix]

dualsport,

Here's some pics of both an M1841 (Mississippi) rifle and an M1842 musket. The Remington Zouave (M1863 58 cal pattern rifle) looks somewhat like the M1841 Mississippi but is 58 cal. If in fact it is a complete, un-messed-with M1841 Mississippi with a good bore it is one of the more valuable models of the Mexican War, Civil War era!

The M1841 had a 33" rifled barrel of 54 cal finished lacquer brown with brass furniture and patchbox. The M1842 had a 42" smooth bore barrel of 69 cal (some were brought back in and rifled for Civil War use). Barrel finished bright with iron furniture.

Top M1842
Bottom M1841

[fouronesix]

Here's a couple of pics comparing the butt and muzzle areas of a Remington Zouave and an M1841 Mississippi.

Zouave top
M1841 bottom

[fouronesix]

Thanks for the info and link. I'm not too sure what the heck I've got. A inlaw spotted it in a corner of an old barn and paid $100 for it. I wish I could post a picture but it is apparently a mixmash job. The barrel turned out to be a .54, rifled, marked 1846 and has the 'V' 'P' under "JH' and almost identical to a .58 Zouave repro barrel outwardly. The lock is almost the same also as the Zouave, but marked Springfield 1848. The stock was bubba'd long ago and even has brass tacks and many notches in the trigger guard too. I couldn't resist and shot it, first with 10 gr. 2f and a paper ball. Ended up at 25 gr. 2f and a patched round ball. Went boom and the ball bounced down range aok. For it's age the bore has some shine left in it. I've seen a lot worse. Now I'll return it to my inlaw and tell him to just admire it, no shooting. Who knows what the old girl's been thru?

This thread is wandering a little but what the hay.

You, or your inlaw, can still shoot that rifle if it's barrel and breech are sound. You can take the barrel out of the stock and clean up the breech area and have a look see. Also, drop a bore light down to the face and look at the breech area inside the bore. While it may be a little corroded for the first inch or three, that won't affect safe shooting. Look at the tang (breech plug). If it appears to be original to the barrel- that's a good thing. You can usually tell if those parts have been monkeyed with or mis-matched. Tell tale signs of changing or messing with the breech plug will be wrench or vise marks on the tang and/or barrel. Even then it may only mean the plug was removed to inspect or for cleaning the bore. Take the nipple out and clean up the seat and inspect the threads. Replace with a new musket nipple. The only safety issue in shooting these is the barrel and tang (breech plug). Being a 54 caliber means there is more beef in the wall thickness.... a good thing. The lock and stock are not critical to safe shooting. If uncomfortable in judging it then take it to a knowledgeable gunsmith. If sound, 50 gr FF BP under a patched roundball would work well as would a likewise moderate BP charge under a Minié.

If original, many of the M1841 54 cal barrels had 7 grooves and were 48" twist... both good things. There're valid reasons Jefferson Davis favored the M1841 as one of the best all around battle rifles of the time. They were proven to be so in battle. Their only draw back being they weren't 58 caliber which had been already been decided upon by other powers that be in the US as the Civil War loomed plus the fact that the English standard was already 58 caliber (.577).

[Beekeeper]

Cactus Farmer,
A photographer I am not but here are a couple of pics of "Old Toast" after it was completed.

It was never my intention to shoot this Musket.
There are parts available if I had wanted to do so.
My restoration was ( after the post by Waksupi) was simply to make it as original as possible and let it serve as a conversation piece hanging on the wall of my office.
I think I did fairly well on the restoration.

I have traced as much of the history of it as possible.
It was used by a member of the Western Wisconsin Regiment ( Volonters)Is as far as I have been able to trace it. What battles ? How it came to be in the barn rafters?
But I am just happy and proud it hangs on my wall.

beekeeper

[mikeym1a]

First time I have come across this thread. It was really interesting, and I enjoyed reading it. I'm glad you were able to restore it to the way it's supposed to look. I laughed about the old ball in the bore. This was neat. Congrats. mikey

[dualsport]

Bingo! It is an 1841 Mississippi. Thankyou guys for the info and pictures. Now we know what the heck we got. Unfortunately it's nowhere near as nice as the one in the pictures above. The original stock is cut off just forward of the first band. Cleaning rod, patch box, and butt plate long gone. My memory kicked in and I recalled an article I just read in The American Rifleman magazine re. the 1841 M. Apparently they were made in several armories including Springfield, which explains the 1848 Springfield lock. I do appreciate all the help. Knowing what you have adds to the enjoyment of having these old beauties. If anyone here is curious enough I can send photos to your phone to be posted here. That's the extent of my skills. Thanks again for all the help and for the OP tolerating my hijack!

[varsity07840]

Bingo! It is an 1841 Mississippi. Thankyou guys for the info and pictures. Now we know what the heck we got. Unfortunately it's nowhere near as nice as the one in the pictures above. The original stock is cut off just forward of the first band. Cleaning rod, patch box, and butt plate long gone. My memory kicked in and I recalled an article I just read in The American Rifleman magazine re. the 1841 M. Apparently they were made in several armories including Springfield, which explains the 1848 Springfield lock. I do appreciate all the help. Knowing what you have adds to the enjoyment of having these old beauties. If anyone here is curious enough I can send photos to your phone to be posted here. That's the extent of my skills. Thanks again for all the help and for the OP tolerating my hijack!

S&S Firearms has parts. www.ssfirearms.com

Duane

[reivertom]

Beekeeper, I wish I had never read this thread. I disturbs me so much to think there are idiots in this country breathing good air that are so brainwashed that they think it is OK to vandalize a piece of history. Why don't they go to a museum and take an axe to war relics while they are at it? I am glad that you got it and have been able to bring it back from certain doom.