Combating squibs!

[jabilli]

Howdy folks-

I sent a batch of several hundred 9mm I cast and reloaded to my brother, whom gave good praise of their performance...I also shot another couple hundred of that same batch myself. He did tell me, however, that he got a squib! I consider this probably the worst catastrophic failure there is, short of double charging, and find this to be terrifying and unacceptable. He's somewhat new to shooting so he didn't know what happened when it happened to him, he just said it fluffed instead of boomed and thank goodness he had the sense to closely inspect his firearm to find the bullet in the barrel. I have had this happen to me in the past in my Beretta CX4 in 9mm, the bullet lodged in the bore just deep enough for the next round to not chamber, luckily.

So out of, oh I don't know, 6-7k cartridges I've made, two squibs, but I still find that unnerving... I'd like to open discussion on what the causes of squibs are, and how to prevent them, or at least minimize their frequency.

I'd like to add, I think both of these squibs were cartridges I've made on my progressive press (Lee pro 1000)- Not to blame the press, I'd just like to be more specific so I can zero in why these have happened. My first squib, there was powder loose in the chamber so it fired off the primer but the powder did not ignite. I'm unsure if the powder in my brothers squib ignited or not, he didn't specify.

It's one thing if I hurt myself with a folly in loading, but I'd really never forgive myself if I had my brother hurt with cartridges I made for him.

[mrjog]

I've never had one, but I'm interested in the topic.

[edsmith]

what powder, primer, brass are you using. I can see why you are concerned, it is one thing to blow your self up, but a loved one, not sure I could handel it if it happened to me.also what charge are you using.

[jabilli]

Oh how remiss of me haha

Both instances were 9mm roundnose casts using Alliant Unique, in front of a CCI small pistol (500), cases are all mixed brands. I never flirt with the line of max load-- I opt for low recoil and better accuracy (hopefully), so in both of these instances I had about 5.1 or 5.2 grains unique

[NSP64]

I was at the range the other day, and a shooter was at the other end of a 12 lane outdoor covered range.
He was shooting a glock .40.
He was practicing a new shooting drill his work requires.
2 in the chest, 1 in the head.
anyhow
So, I was instructing a new shooter(friend from work), and we see other guy tapping the back of his slide, trying to clear on OOB stoppage.
I wander down, start asking friendly questions.
He reloads practice ammo using raineer plated bullets (works as a federal bank officer?).
So, I suggest he pull gun apart and check the bore.
Sure enough, BIB.

Im glad he couldn't get it in battery.

He didn't have any cleaning rods, so I suggest we stick two fired .223 cases into muzzle.Smacked muzzle into wood shooting bench.
We were able to remove BIB, and he could keep practicing.
He uses a progressive press.

No unburned powder, I believe it was a primer only discharge.
I don't shoot highvolume so, I use single stage and inspect every powder charge.

[462]

I've had one and witnessed another. Not 100% sure, but think mine was caused by a too light crimp, during my first experiment with W296 and .357 Magnum's. The bullet was lodged just past the forcing cone and the unburnt powder was a solid mass.

The one I witnessed was a primer-only load.

[jmorris]

If the powder and ammunition have been stored properly, I would say 100% of all squibs are due to lack of powder charge.

The eyeball is the least expensive method to ensure you have a charge.

Powder check or lock out dies are nice and work well if your eyeball is not focusing inside every case.

[35remington]

I've got a pretty good clue as to the cause given your equipment......and this isn't a knock on your equipment, but rather making sure you do not load incompatible combinations of powder in your powder measure.

Are you using a Lee Pro Auto Disk or Auto Disk measure, perchance? And, are you using a large flake type powder in a relatively modest charge?

On edit: I see that you were. Is the actual amount of Unique present verified as 5 grains?

Last possibility is a double stroke of the press handle.

I've got a Pro 1000 as well.

[BattleRife]

I once bought some bags of allegedly once-fired .38 Special brass at a gun show to get me started in loading that caliber. Within a couple of shooting sessions I recall having three squibs that caused the bullet to bridge the cylinder and forcing cone. The bullet had to be hammered back into the case to allow the cylinder to be opened so the gun could be cleared. Powder flakes generously littered the area, so failure to charge with powder was not the problem.

You could spin the bullet freely in the loaded cartridges, like a .22 long rifle. I surmised the lack of mouth tension was leading to start pressures so low that the powder was not igniting properly. I boxed up my brand new dies and sent them back to Hornady with the note that they were not sizing the cases adequately. They sent them back with the note that they changed the sizing ring. It happened less frequently and took more effort, but you could still spin the bullet on some of the rounds. So I bought a new batch of brass and lo, the problem went away.

[hunter64]

The general problem with the Lee 1000 (if you can get the primer system to work reliably) is the fact that you can not see easily into the case to verify there is powder in there. Yes you can crane your neck way over in your chair to see inside the case but other than building a post mounted into the middle of the floor with the machine attached to it and you standing up at the perfect height, it gets extremely tedious to look into every case. My Dillon 550 is easy to see into as the powder is dispersed at the front of the machine and not the back. On my LNL and Dillon 650 machines I have a powder check die.

Here is what happened to me and my Lee 1000.

Had the machine for about 2 years and finally gave up on the primer bs so I primed off the machine so I didn't have to worry about it. I would check every case in the bullet seating position to make sure there was powder in there. Into the 3 caliber of the day and 4 hours at it I started to check every other case for powder and then I would start to check about every 5th case or so.

I changed powders for a can of unique loaded it up and away I went. Same routine check every case and then every about 5th one. I made 4 boxes of ammo and did not find any missing powder.

Went to the range the next week and was 1/2 way thru the box and I had a squib. First one ever. I pushed the bullet out and started again and I think I shot 3 more times and then another squib. Well that was it for the 4 boxes of ammo, I put them away to investigate another day.

Long story short is that some how a used primer got into the can of unique and when I poured the powder into the hopper it was not discovered. Sometimes the powder would dispense as usual and sometimes I wouldn't get any powder at all.

When I pulled the remained of the 4 boxes apart there were about 20% that were squibs. It was a huge wake up call for me.

I now use the lee 1000 for depriming only before the brass goes into the tumbler.

I have a light mounted on the 550 that I can easily see into the case from where I sit and I pour out each can of powder into a large cookie sheet to make sure there is nothing in there before it goes in any hopper.

On my LNL and my 650 I make sure the powder check die is working and adjusted perfectly before I start.

Complacency in our sport can be very costly.

[35remington]

In small cases like the 9mm, it is possible to see into the case, and see the powder fill, at the third station. Taping a flashlight to the press (one of those flexi-lights, ideally) will help facilitate this.

[Windyvista]

I just wanted to say thank to all who post on this website. I just joined today and have learned a huge amount alredy just in looking through these posts. I am just getting into reloading myself and am just completing the equipment purchases needed. There is obviously a lot to be learned. Thanks again.

[wv109323]

About five years ago I went thru a rash of squibs loading .38 Special on a Dillon 550B press. I had loaded two boxes of ammo and had about four squib loads.
The press was new at the time. The problem was the case activated powder measure was not returning to the lowered position so that the powder bar could return under the hopper to get a charge of powder.
Things that affected the situation were:
1.) My inexperience with the system. My over confidence since I had owned a Dillon press before even though it was a Model 450.The 450 used a manually operated powder measure.
2.) The instructions were not as detailed as they should have been. Actually the instructions came with a separate page to explain the adjustment of the powder measure and somehow that page had seperated itself from the instructional manual as I began setting up the press.
3.) The raw castings of the powder measure parts had some burrs on them that prevented the working of the powder measure to be as smooth as possible.
4.) Improper adjustment/ installation of the "Fail-Safe" rod.
The good thing was no one was hurt nor was a firearm destroyed due to my mistakes.
I will add one more word of caution about squib loads. I have read that about insects building nests inside of rifle cases. The nest would not allow the primer to ignite the powder.
This happened with rifle cases that were resized/de-primed and then stored in an unsealed container. The insect( suspected to a mud-dopper) build the nest and the difference in the level of powder in the case went undetected in the loading process. The moral of the story is if you are going to store new or processed brass do it in a sealed plastic bag or ammo can. This would include brass in factory cardboard boxes as well as loose brass.

[20nickels]

I had a couple lockout dies. They work with bulky powders but not small amounts of the fast stuff. Sold 'em and use the eyeball method now. If you are interrupted while loading or have to get away from the press, leave the ram all the way in the "up" position so you know where you left off. Just try it.

[rexherring]

I always check each round with a mini mag light for powder charge. Doing this I've only had a few squib loads due to a bad batch of primers. I found out the primers had been stored in a damp basement for about a year when the gun shop moved to a new location. That batch of primers gave me many squib and hangfire loads. They were returned for a refund with a few choice words. Never had that since and I've been using some very old primers that have been stored in sealed ammo boxes with silica gel packs.

[Firebricker]

I had a Load Master a few years ago and sometimes it would index rough and powder would bounce out of short cases like 9mm. I would take them out when I saw it happen so I don't know if you could lose enough powder that way to cause a squib or not. FB

[Char-Gar]

A squib like a double charge is caused by failure to pay attention to what you are doing. The real hazard of a progressive loader is letting your mind drift and going through the motions on auto-pilot.

That is the reason, I don't use progressive presses.

[waksupi]

I agree. I have always used a single stage. It may take me all winter to do my reloading, but I know what is in each cartridge.

[jabilli]

Wow! What a response, didn't expect so many answers in so short of time. :-)

@NSP64- Wow, good save! If someone saved my hide like that I'd definitely buy them a beer/soda! Creative problem solving by using 2 .223s.

@462- I could see how if a bullet isn't crimped/firmly in place could cause problems. I don't think that was the case in either of my instances but I'd definitely add it as a possible cause of squib.

@35Remington-
The powder charge on the Pro 1000 seems to throw somewhat accurately enough. Sometimes I guess it varies by about a tenth of a grain, less often two...Does this occur with you as well? Would you recommend a different powder?

@ Firebricker- I find that terribly annoying. The cause mainly is that last little notch cut out of the main pillar by the priming/charging station.

@ Everyone-
Yeah it sounds like the main culprit is missing a charge- I think I'll try and rig up a mirror so I can easily look in each case after charging.

[Lloyd Smale]

back when i loaded on a 1000 i used to get powder hangups with the disc measure with unique all the time. It got to where i only trusted in with ball powders.

[finishman2000]

i have a 30 cal ammo can of 38spl reloads that for some reason i get about 1 in 30 that just go click. i don't remember what primers were used but i make sure i'm the only one who shoots them at the range. i figure it's good training ammo to see if i'm flinching lol.

[Ziptar]

I agree. I have always used a single stage. It may take me all winter to do my reloading, but I know what is in each cartridge.

Same here. Lyman T-mag maybe isn't the fastest but, when its cold out who cares!
I do batches of 50 or 100. Every round is inspected at each step. I go over the blocks of necked and charged cases with a flash light and inspect them all before the bullets go on. I've yet to make a squib (empty case) or a double charge but, if I did, they wouldn't make it past that step.

Then again I only reload for one caliber and I like the reloading as much as the shooting.

[NSP64]

I have a T-mag as well.
I prep and prime in big batches.
Then I throw the powder in a case, look in the case, set boolit in place and seat.
I dont set it down once its charged with powder.

[A pause for the COZ]

Fail to charge the case is the main causes for squibs from progressives. I purchased a used RCBS piggy back 2 and its Rube Goldberg powder drop. I got two squibs out of the 1st 500 357 rounds I did using unique.

But it appears its not a problem with just any one kind of progressive press. They all have the ability to screw ya out of a powder charge.

Those two squibs scared the heck out of me. One I caught and one happened when my son was shooting. Lucky I was doing my job and supervising his shooting.
I heard it go click... fizzz HOLD on son!!!

I have mitigated my risk for future fail to charge loads, by changing that whacky linkage to the case activated linkage for the measure. Also added the powder check die.
I wont use it with out it any more. Just not worth the risk.

It would appear on the LEE pro 1000 you only have three stations, not much there to add a powder check die. I would still come up with some thing. A mirror or maybe a little bitty camera set up to look in the case.

Oh for any one who is interested. I took a quick video of the Piggy Back 2 in operation using the case activated linkage and the powder check die. I like this set up because that little white cap is at my eye level. I look at that on the up stroke and glance in the primer seater on the down.

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/?action=view&current=PiggyBack2.mp4

[Horace]

I love Unique but would use a different powder that would flow better with the LEE press.

Horace

[jabilli]

It would have taken a long time for me to look into shaking the feeder as the disc shaped powder can hang up. I've liked using Unique- It's honestly the only handgun powder I've used (Found something that works and stuck with it.) Anything comparable that doesn't have this problem? I guess I could just give the hopper a tap or two on occasion and be more careful to look into each case.

[jabilli]

I think Ziptar hit a really good point:

"Then again I only reload for one caliber and I like the reloading as much as the shooting."

I tend to do it just to hurry up and get it done. I should try to focus on enjoying myself more and taking my time. Maybe even a good life lesson. :-p

I'd like this thread to be somewhat comprehensive on the subject of squibs for posterity- It seems the finger is pointed strongly on using progressives...How about other possible scenarios that might cause someone to have a squib?

Not to digress too much but my first couple batches out of my progressive would very often hangfire. The hammer would strike the primer but it would not ignite... Long story short I believe the cause was that the primers were not being seated deeply enough. It wasn't that I wasn't trying to seat them firmly- I was using a crappy desk that didn't weigh very much, on the upstroke the desk wanted to come up with it. My fathers work was selling of some old desks they weren't using and he bagged me a nice sturdy,quality piece. Problem Solved :-)
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz83/jbilling85/Desk.jpg

[Plinkster]

I recently did a batch of 500 .45acp on my Lee classic turret and I had 3 squibs. I use the auto disk pro on this press. I traced the cause to myself, it took about 3 separate sessions for me to get them done due to life happening. What happened was that I'd forget if I turned the powder hopper closed or not when I came back to the press. I usually don't leave powder in the hopper but the sessions were all in one day. Now I empty my hopper every time I leave the press and problem solved. To get better metering try Bullseye, it has a smaller flake shape and will also be more cost effective as you use a lighter charge than unique. It's supposed to be good in .38 & .45 target loads and I can't speak to the .38 but I can say my 1911 loves it!

[Dorf]

I had the "squibbosis" problem with a bunch of .38 spl ammo that I loaded on my L-N-L using 700x. It was a avery light load and I got a couple of BIB rounds that I had to pound back in so I could remove them from the cylinder. I noticed that I also had some double charges as well as the squibs. What was happening was the 700x was bridging in the Hornady powder measure due to the very small orifice in the drop tube. I believe that this condition will happen with any flake powder in that measure. As a result of this experience, I use ball powders exclusively on the L-N-L progressive. I like Unique and 700x but only load it using my old faithful Lyman #55 measure, and check every case beforfe seating the bullet. YMMV

[Colorado4wheel]

Are you using the Adjustable Charge Bar.
What CC of charge are you using?
What powder.
What Gr charge.

I did not read every post.

[jabilli]

@Colorado-
I'm running 5.2 grains of Unique- The hole in the disk I'm using to accomplish this is .66. I don't have an adjustable charge bar.

[Colorado4wheel]

So the adjustable charge bar is known for throwing squibs with light charges if low bulk powders. But the regular setup is very reliable. You pulled the case for some inspection and but it back in the wrong place or at the wrong time.

[geargnasher]

I've run a lot of Unique, Red Dot, and Clays through all of my Autodisks, never had a problem that I know of with them bridging, but it's certainly possible. I have four Pro-1000s and have never had a squib or a misfire, but I have had a few primers seated sideways, upside-down, and have had one squib in particular that I caught before shooting it because I weighed every cartridge in that batch. I did that because I was having a lot of COAL issues and some powder flakes in the priming chute was giving me some problems at the time, so I double-checked to make sure I didn't miss a charge with all the out-of-sequence activity. Turns out one got by without powder, but none got by with too much.

I drilled a hole through the aluminum die plate between the sizer and seater die, at a slight angle so a pen light can shine through it into the case on the .38/.357 dedicated press (both heads actually, I keep a fully-loaded and adjusted turret for each caliber so I don't have to screw with adjustments, just stick the measure on it, set the pullback chain adjustment, and let 'er rip). This really helps when using 2.9 grains of Bullseye in .38 Special.

I've been trying to rig a mount for a dentist's mirror that would swing into position above the case when the ram is lowered, I have the position and function figured out, just need to build a mount. It would work similar to the swinging "safety prime" mechanism on the Lee turret presses. That would prevent the neck and back strain of leaning forward and peering into each case to check the charge every cycle.

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