subsonic 45/70

[softpoint]

I am attempting to build a sub-sonic load for a 45/70. I have decided to use the RCBS 500 grain boolit in one of my Marlins. Weighs 521 gr. out of my alloy, I have tried 2 powders so far. Worked up to 14 gr Unique, and up to 24 gr of 5744. The 5744 seems to have the accuracy edge throughout the charge range,21-24 gr, but the Unique load, from 12 to 14gr. is by far the quieter. I am looking for the quietest load I can find that will run just below the sonic level. Needs to deliver "hog" accuracy from 50-70 yards. So far the Unique loads are delivering "OK" accuracy of about 2 inches at 50 and the 5744 loads are delivering about 1.5 inch at the same distance. Has anyone else experimented in this area? and if you did, what powders, or combinations did you use?[smilie=f:

[softpoint]

I suppose I should say I am looking for the quietest hunting loads that are effective at 50-75 yards, and which powders would be the best. (I know from experience it isn't H335!)I am going to try Blue dot tomorrow

[frnkeore]

My subsonic 45/70 load is 10.0 gr of Unique with a 430 gr bullet. 971 fps in a 31" 20 twist, heavy barrel single shot. My best 5 group was .84 @ 100.

Frank

[Shiloh]

Talked to a guy today who has a Springfield Trapdoor. Loads it with a 500 gr at about 900 fps. with black powder.

Shiloh

[Artful]

The hodgdon manual lists 12-13 grains Trailboss for the 405 bullet.
It also lists 8-10 grains Trailboss for the 485 gr bullet.

Marlin group discussion
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/45-70-govt/50958-marlin-45-70-trailboss.html#new

and another link
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

and another
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

some of my older manual have 2400 as powder for subsonic - and some have put in a case capacity reducer plug especially for subsonic loading with fast pistol powders.

this as been discussed before here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130159
for example - might just want to run a search.

[Nobade]

Trailboss is your powder. Or Tin Star if you want to spend the bucks.

[softpoint]

Thanks, artful, I did a search here, but I didn't bring up that thread, I will set up the chronograph today, and shoot some more. By the looks of one of the sources of data, my 5744 load is probably going supersonic, so that is the reason it is a lot noisier.

[Artful]

Ya need to use your chronograph my friend - I use just a cheap Chrony F-1 - got it here...
http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=SHTF1

If you play with suppressor's or subsonic loading in general you really need to know what's happening.

Some loads have different velocity with cold barrel.
Some exhibit different velocity depending upon powder orientation in the cartridge case.
Just changing primers can make a difference, or having lube in the barrel.
Remember as you approach Transonic speeds the sound goes up quickly.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/bulnoise.GIF

and the speed of sound is relative to environmental conditions - here's a link to find for your conditions
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm

[Lonegun1894]

I use 10grs Unique under a Lee 450gr FP, which weighs 462grs in my alloy. I haven't put it over the chronograph, but it has no sonic crack fired out of my H&R BCs 32" barrel. It also gives me a cloverleaf right around an inch to an inch and a half across at 50yds. At 25yds, its one ragged hole, but I haven't tried it beyond 50 so cant say how it will do at 75 yds like your stated range limit.

[softpoint]

I have loaded and fired several more of the RCBS boolits, with 14 grains of Unique, and I weight sorted these, and got a 3 shot group at 100 yards of about 1.75 inches out of the 22" Marlin 1895. I can live with this noise level, and I fired this group on a bulls eye stuck to an old washing machine at 100 yrds. The boolits went through both sides of the washer and the inner tub as well. (redneck penetration test LOL) Curious, though how fast they are going, so I'm going to chrono them later today. They weigh 521grs. I am using gaschecks on the shanks, even though i probably don't need them, I usually get a little better accuracy, and less messy to lube. I could probably tumble lube them if I were going to use a lot of them, but these are for hunting, and won't replace the 325gr. RCBS for general plinking, and I use a 340 Lee with a paper patch for higher velocity. You think your lead pot has a leak somewhere when casting these!:redneck:

[Haggway]

All Aggie jokes aside Softpoint. This has been very useful, and will help me with some other avenues of approach on the 45-70's.

[softpoint]

Just back in the house, CED crono says my boolits are averaging 1054 fps, with a sd of 16. Probably right where I need to be. While shooting through the crono, shot another group at 100 yards. Haven't gone down there to measure it, but it doesn't look to be over about 1 3/4 inches thru the spotter. I will now try to run this load on my ballistics program if I can find the BC of this boolit somewhere, just to satisfy my curiosity as to what it is doing at 75 yards.
No problem chronographing these loads, even though it is a bit overcast today, thes slugs should leave a shadow over the skyscreens much like a buzzard drifting over.....

[softpoint]

Interesting, still has 1175 ft. lbs. at 75 yards. Should do anything I need this particular load to do,

[TCLouis]

10.5 grains of a Milsurp that thinks it is Unique give me about 1100 fps with boolits of 340-378 brains out of a real Winny 1886.

Powder is #105, but use caution there is a really fast burning Milsurp powder with the same designation which is a good reason to know which Milsurp one is working with as there are also two versions of a M-9 powder.

[softpoint]

All Aggie jokes aside Softpoint. This has been very useful, and will help me with some other avenues of approach on the 45-70's.

Yup, lived all my life right here in Aggieland. My dad was in the class of '48

[softpoint]

10.5 grains of a Milsurp that thinks it is Unique give me about 1100 fps with boolits of 340-378 brains out of a real Winny 1886.

Powder is #105, but use caution there is a really fast burning Milsurp powder with the same designation which is a good reason to know which Milsurp one is working with as there are also two versions of a M-9 powder.

I thought about using a little lighter boolit, as the RCBS is an alloy hog, but for hunting,I'm thinking heavy can't hurt, and for the distance I'll be using this, trajectory isn't too important.
As an interesting side note: My .454 Casull load that I am using propels a 300 grain XTP at 1439 fps. The muzzle energy is within 5lbs. of the 45/70 load. However, the Casull load (6"barrel) drops below 1000 ft lbs. by around 85 yds. But the 45/70 load doesn't drop below 1000 ft. lbs. till about 230 yds.! Big long boolit seems to want to keep going!:)

[Haggway]

Sounds like you have gotten a good close in hogg killer there. Now what we need are some good heavy duty 45 cal suppresors for our rifles.

[softpoint]

Sounds like you have gotten a good close in hogg killer there. Now what we need are some good heavy duty 45 cal suppresors for our rifles.

I'd like to have a suppressed 45/70. I always figured suppressors weren't worth the red tape involved to legally own. Other countries, while having stricter gun laws in general, actually encourage their use.

[Haggway]

I'd like to have a suppressed 45/70. I always figured suppressors weren't worth the red tape involved to legally own. Other countries, while having stricter gun laws in general, actually encourage their use.

They are well worth the effort.

[Dthunter]

A suppressor would put us Canadians in jail!

What an idiotic. Law................EH?
lol!

[9.3X62AL]

Californians too, eh!

[Longwood]

A suppressor would put us Canadians in jail!

What an idiotic. Law................EH?
lol!

FORE SURE!
I need one really bad!
I also need a helicopter with rocket launchers.

[nanuk]

A suppressor would put us Canadians in jail!

What an idiotic. Law................EH?
lol!


isn't that what our LIberal Government was??

oh.. Suppressor... I thought you said Oppressor

[Chicken Thief]

The smallest load of the fastest powder possible = mouse fart.
The longer the barrel the better.

Please state boolit and overall length and i'll run a QL.

[Artful]

Californians too, eh!

Oh, it's ok if your on the team... :bigsmyl2:

Section 12520 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:

(a)The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties.

(b)The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1, or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

(c)The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

[rhouser]

I use SR-4759 with great success. About 22.0 grains with a 405 grain cast is a really easy accurate load at 50 in my Marlin.

You might take a look here... www.gmdr.com
The entire site is based on shooting cast bullet loads in rifle cartridges using shotgun/pistol powders. The site includes loads, sd's, group sizes reported and is sponsered by Oregon Trail Bullets.

thanks rc

[Potsy]

This is something I need to fool with a little more.
I've been making a hammer out of my #1 with 3031 but last summer I loaded some 405HB's over 10grn. Unique.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was quiet, but it was quieter than a 355Ranch Dog and 55grn of 3031.
Recoil was noticeably less as well. DUH!
I've been kind of intrigued by the suppressor thing as well. Anyone who can't see the utility in a 400-500grn cast bullet at 1000-1100fps with little to no noise lacks imagination.
Or, for that matter one honking along at 1800fps with noise in the ballpark of a .22mag.

[softpoint]

This is something I need to fool with a little more.
I've been making a hammer out of my #1 with 3031 but last summer I loaded some 405HB's over 10grn. Unique.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was quiet, but it was quieter than a 355Ranch Dog and 55grn of 3031.
Recoil was noticeably less as well. DUH!
I've been kind of intrigued by the suppressor thing as well. Anyone who can't see the utility in a 400-500grn cast bullet at 1000-1100fps with little to no noise lacks imagination.
Or, for that matter one honking along at 1800fps with noise in the ballpark of a .22mag.

Hunting hogs or deer here in Texas on properties that border places you can't hunt on, the quieter,the better. Nearly all property here is privately owned, so precaution needs to be taken not to disturb others. Also, if hog feeders are only a few hundred yards apart in the woods, a pop is much less likely to disturb hogs that might be at other feeders. Most of these kinds of shots will be at less than 75 yards, and I'd go so far as to say most will be under 50. Lots of utility in this type of load.

[Hang Fire]

I have often thought a suppressed subsonic .45-70 with a heavy soft cast boolit used from cover, would be a near perfect assassin's load.

If it gets there and embeds in center mass, game over for recipient of the boolit.

[Artful]

I have often thought a suppressed subsonic .45-70 with a heavy soft cast boolit used from cover, would be a near perfect assassin's load.

If it gets there and embeds in center mass, game over for recipient of the boolit.

Use undersize boolit with paper patch that doesn't retain rifling marks well and I'd agree.

Suppressed 45's sound like a big ol' bee trying to get to mach.

[Iowa Fox]

Longer barrels sure help on noise control. I use 13grns of Unique in the 45/70 loads. My Encore has a 24" barrel and my Marlin has a 26" barrel, those two inches make a big differnce in the noise I find. Sounds like I need to try some trailboss.

[Bryan Marino]

457383 gc with 20.0grs SR 4759, no filler, groups under 2" from my 1886 Winchester at 100 yds.

[Potsy]

I tried Lee 405HB's over 10grn Unique the other day. 35 yard group was 2in. (for 5 rounds).
Considering I was shooting over jacket fouling, I'll not gripe.
It was sighted in for 405 Rem. JSP's (yeah, I know). Windage was fine, but the subsonic load hit a foot low.
Didn't bother to chrony, but I REALLY doubt she's over 1100fps.
I did find out my bro-in-law has a can of Trail Boss stashed. Will be "borrowing" some soon.

[Just Duke]

Good info.