1899 Savage 30

[Tallyman]

I recently traded for a very old Savage Model 1899. The barrel is marked Savage 30. The serial number (196XX) indicates it was made in 1902.

I was told that there is no "Savage 30" cartridge and that this rifle is chambered for the 30/30 Winchester. When I do a search on the internet for the Savage 30 I come up with 300 Savage, but the 300 Savage cartridge was not introduced until some 18 years after this rifle was made.

What ammo do I use in this rifle?

[square butte]

It migth be possible that your gun was re-barreled to 300 savage? I have never seen one marked Savage 30.

[TXGunNut]

Short of a trip to a good gunsmith (never a bad idea @ times like this) I think a close look at the bolt face will tell you what you need to know. Pretty sure it's a 30-30 but a chamber cast and some careful measurements may save a bit of drama and head-scratching. Gun's been around a long time, no telling what's happened over the years.

[Bushrat]

Your rifle may be a 303 Savage, there were more of caliber that any other at that time

[starmac]

That is wierd, did savage even mark them as savage 30 wcf back then or would it have been just 30wcf.

The 303 was popular in that time frame and would have been marked as savage 303 or 303 savage.

I am interested to find out what you find it to be.
My 300 savage started life as something else, the original caliber was Xed out and restamped along with the gunsmiths name.
I suspect it was a 30/30 originally.

[excess650]

303 Savage was the original caliber for the 1895s and 1899s. 30-30 was added in 1900.

A 303 Savage case will not fully chamber in a 30-30. Likewise a .300 will not go into a 303 or 30-30. You should get a pretty good idea as to what the chambering is with a few rounds of ammo or empty cases. If you can't sort it out that way, I would suggest doing a chamber cast, or having a gunsmith do it for you.

If it hasn't been rechambered or rebarreled, more than likely its a 303 Savage.

[john hayslip]

If you need one send me a pm with an address and I'll send you a 303 Savage case. By the way, If that is what it is the internal capacity of that case and the 30-30 are identical and you can use 30-30 reloading data. 303 Savage reloading data is hard to come by. I got some 303 brass several years ago from Graf and Sons.

[Rimfire]

The first markings for the 30wcf a.k.a. 30-30 that savage used was SAV 30. So your 99 is an early 30-30.

[Bret4207]

The first markings for the 30wcf a.k.a. 30-30 that savage used was SAV 30. So your 99 is an early 30-30.

I'm not disagreeing, but whats your source for that info?

[gnoahhh]

Yep, Savage marked their earliest .30/30's as 'Sav .30'. All .303's were marked as .303's. The consensus among collectors is that they marked the .30/30's that way because of the rivalry with Winchester. That all changed a couple of years after this one was built when they switched to marking them '.30/30'.

While on the subject, all early .30 cal Savages (.303 and .30/30) used the same nominal bore dimensions. Early .303's were often (but not always) loaded with .310-.311 diameter bullets in order to jack pressures up a bit and get a smidge more velocity in order to back up their claims for beating the .30/30 Winchester in power. In truth, there isn't much difference between the two. They dropped that scheme in the first years of the century, and all ensuing .303's were loaded with .308's.

It was the excellent 190 grain bullets commonly found in .303's that gave it an edge on the .30/30.

[TXGunNut]

The first markings for the 30wcf a.k.a. 30-30 that savage used was SAV 30. So your 99 is an early 30-30.


Pretty sure I've read that somewhere, Bret. Just couldn't cite it. Have read and heard ctg headstamps were sometimes misleading back then as well. Manufacturers didn't like stamping another mfrs' names in their products back then, even if it lead to confusion. Don't think the name "30-30" was commonly used at that time.

[Rimfire]

I have owned 2 Sav 30's both were 30-30's.

[square butte]

I learn sumthin new here every day. That's why I love this place.

[Tallyman]

The first markings for the 30wcf a.k.a. 30-30 that savage used was SAV 30. So your 99 is an early 30-30.

Rimfire: I chambered a loaded 30/30 round. It went in and extracted like it should. I have some low power lead boolit 30/30 loads with 115 grain 32-20 boolits. I will try them out next time I go up the mountain to do some shooting at my "Red Neck Ranch" in Florissant, CO.

[Bret4207]

Yep, Savage marked their earliest .30/30's as 'Sav .30'. All .303's were marked as .303's. The consensus among collectors is that they marked the .30/30's that way because of the rivalry with Winchester. That all changed a couple of years after this one was built when they switched to marking them '.30/30'.

While on the subject, all early .30 cal Savages (.303 and .30/30) used the same nominal bore dimensions. Early .303's were often (but not always) loaded with .310-.311 diameter bullets in order to jack pressures up a bit and get a smidge more velocity in order to back up their claims for beating the .30/30 Winchester in power. In truth, there isn't much difference between the two. They dropped that scheme in the first years of the century, and all ensuing .303's were loaded with .308's.

It was the excellent 190 grain bullets commonly found in .303's that gave it an edge on the .30/30.

Again, with respect, source info?

[pietro]

Again, with respect, source info?

Even though it was politely done, there's no need to call someone a liar, IMHO - since it's documented fact. (seek, and ye shall find)

FWIW, NO original firearm maker willingly put the name of another firearm maker on their own firearms (at least while the original owners were in situ) - So Arthur Savage NEVER put Oliver Winchester's name on his rifles, period.

.

[largom]

Not calling anyone a liar, but like Bret, I too would like to know of the source.

Larry

[DeanWinchester]

Cerrosafe chamber casting would be worth it's weight in gold.

[Rimfire]

It's funny how things are forgotten or lost over time, years ago a sav30 marked gun was known to be a 30-30, now it is a big mystery. Sort of like how people confuse the 32spec. and 32wcf or 303sav and 303british.

[rintinglen]

Years ago, there was an article in one of the annuals ( Gun Digest, Shooter's Bible) on collecting Savage Model 99s that discussed the various calibers manufactured and the markings. I can't remember which it was, but I do recall reading that the "Sav 30" was in reality the plain jane 30-30, which in those days was known as the 30 WCF. IIRC, the author ascribed the variance to the reluctance of the Savage Firm to put any mention of their rival on their guns, much as Colt marked their revolvers "38 New Police" and not "38 S&W".

[Bret4207]

Even though it was politely done, there's no need to call someone a liar, IMHO - since it's documented fact. (seek, and ye shall find)

FWIW, NO original firearm maker willingly put the name of another firearm maker on their own firearms (at least while the original owners were in situ) - So Arthur Savage NEVER put Oliver Winchester's name on his rifles, period.

.

Did I call anyone a liar? No, I did not. I'm requesting help in finding the source info because that may lead to some other info I'm looking for regard Savage 99's. It's not a "documented fact" without reference to the source document! FYI- I've been "seeking" on this issue for 30 years.

I find your tone and words highly insulting.

[gnoahhh]

Bret, as usual, is expressing his query in a gentlemanly way. Would that more people questioned 'internet wisdom' instead of blindly accepting things as being fact and then regurgitating it as such somewhere else.

With respect to the 'Sav 30' markings being in fact .30/30s, there is no written reference to it to my knowledge, although there may be reference to it in Murray's book on the 99. My copy is not here at work with me. The knowledge amongst our group of Savage collectors on this subject is empirical in nature, and is based on cerrosafe chamber castings and bore slugging of multiple specimens- enough so that there is no doubt in our mind. All Savage 1899's and 99's in .303 were plainly marked as such. If one turns up that isn't, I would dearly love to see it.

[square butte]

I looked through Murray's book last night and could not find a reference to this marking. However, I was not able to use the fine tooth comb. Will spend a bit more time over the next few days if time permits.

[Rimfire]

more info here
http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5612935/Savage_Model_1899_in_Sav_30

[Bret4207]

I looked through Murray's book last night and could not find a reference to this marking. However, I was not able to use the fine tooth comb. Will spend a bit more time over the next few days if time permits.

I did the same thing to no avail. Murrays book is THE source as far as I know. If there is something else out there I'd like to find it. I've looked through Sharpes tome and some others of the 1920-45ish range in the past, and my almost complete collection of "Gun Digest" for similar information too.

As far as the internet, there seems to be a lot of people claiming to own peculiar examples that no one else has ever heard of before. I can't believe all of them are full of horse feathers, but you'd think someone would have sort of made a study of sorts by this time.


Interesting tidbit I've gleaned from the likes of Sharpe, Whelen, Mattern, etc- Back when Art Savage was loading .311 bullets in his 303 Savage, the common diameter for the 30-30 appears to have been .307! This carried on for some time as I still have a couple boxes of 30-30 Sierras designs, 150's IIRC, that are clearly marked .307. Weird, eh?

[TXGunNut]

Cerrosafe chamber casting would be worth it's weight in gold.

Thank you. That original chamber was cut long ago. Anything could have happened since then.
I agree w/gnoahhh on the info he provided but my Savage expert was laid to rest yesterday. :cry: So, like Bret, I'd like to read more on this subject. It's not a challenge, just a quest for more info.

[MT Gianni]

I recall reading that Savage loaded a heavier bullet in their version/load of the 30-30. Like others have wrote other makers were not keen on marking their barrels WCF, so it evolved to nomenclature like 30-30, 44-40, & so on.

The 303 Savage was/is ballistically similar to the 30 WCF with the exception of a 190 gr boolit.

[itsatdm]

Winchester originally called the 30-30, a 30WCF and it was Marlin that originated calling the round 30-30 in order not to put any reference to Winchester on their guns. Seems possible that Savage would do something similar.

In any event I have seen a model 99 with similar caliber markings, dated as a 1901 model, on an auction site. In parentheses it list the caliber as 30-30.

Not a source document but I have seen other discussion groups have the same conversation about the .30 caliber and the info was, that was the marking for 30-30's from 1900 to 1904. The Source given was Murray.

[gnoahhh]

Doug Murray (may he R.I.P.) was a very diligent scholar and his book on the Savage lever guns is very very good, but not infallible. For instance we have discovered that his serial numbers for pre-WWI guns are not very accurate, proven by letters from John Callahan, Savage historian, who has the original records. Other little niggling mistakes have turned up, but nothing really to get ones shorts in a twist over. There may be a definitive history of the 1899/99 coming out in the future. Stay tuned.

Bill West's "Savage and Stevens Arms and history" is another good reference work, but I think it's out of print now.

[bandit7.5]

I learn sumthin new here every day. That's why I love this place.

I learned I'm not the only user of the savage lever cranker.
Thanks guys:castmine:

[Ed in North Texas]

Even though it was politely done, there's no need to call someone a liar, IMHO - since it's documented fact. (seek, and ye shall find)

FWIW, NO original firearm maker willingly put the name of another firearm maker on their own firearms (at least while the original owners were in situ) - So Arthur Savage NEVER put Oliver Winchester's name on his rifles, period.

.

Asking for a cite for a statement is not the same as calling someone a liar, not even in the same universe. It isn't unreasonable to ask for the cite, there's lots of "information" on the Web which just isn't so. If a person knows a fact, they probably know where they learned that fact and have the citation more readily available. Making a factual statement, then telling someone if they want to know the source of the fact(s) they can go look it up themselves is simply bad form (as the Brits say). Just my opinion on the issue.

Ed

[starmac]

Asking for a cite for a statement is not the same as calling someone a liar, not even in the same universe. It isn't unreasonable to ask for the cite, there's lots of "information" on the Web which just isn't so. If a person knows a fact, they probably know where they learned that fact and have the citation more readily available. Making a factual statement, then telling someone if they want to know the source of the fact(s) they can go look it up themselves is simply bad form (as the Brits say). Just my opinion on the issue.

Ed

I suspect it is the opinion of most on here, (or at least i hope so) but you put in words in a better way than I could have.

[Urny]

My oldest Savage lever gun is #30.844, definately a point rather than a comma, and is marked 30-30, no decimal point for the caliber. This is the 26" half octagon barreled rifle with which Jaremy won the long range match at NCBS some years back. Those marked Sav 30 must have pretty low numbers.

[Ed in North Texas]

I suspect it is the opinion of most on here, (or at least i hope so) but you put in words in a better way than I could have.

Thanks, I try (SWMBO often says I'm simply "trying", but she's put up with me for 45 years - so I guess I'm not that bad).

Ed

[windy]

wal, if i ever git asked that question, i'm gonna mention this hyar thread as my source. ok?
mind yer topknots!
windy


sonny, whar i growed up, "magnum" wuz jist another word fer "lousy hunter".

[M99SavNut]

I have thoughts and information on every aspect of this discussion EXCEPT the Savage 30 marking, but I'm very interested: I acknowledge the reluctance of one manufacturer to put another manufacturer's name on his product (my 2 M99s in this chambering are marked just "30-30"), but the newest of my .303 Savage M99s is just marked "303", so..........

I have 180 grain bullets pulled from older (but not ancient, say '50s) Remington/Peters .303 Savage ammo measuring .310 in diameter - bullets larger than groove diameter to increase pressures (and thus velocities) a mite were apparently not all that uncommon in the Savage line. And, to reinforce an earlier post, I have Sierra component bullets for the .30-30 that are .307 diameter. What do/did they know about this caliber that we don't?

I also have a .303 Savage case, picked up at the range, that was fired in a .303 British rifle - base swelled out big-time, neck about 1/8" long, etc. That fellow didn't read far enough, or didn't compare with his other ammo, or????????????

I'll keep watching to know if the "Sav 30" marking is finally documented, and hope this post isn't considered too far out of line...