25 cal nail gun blanks for Steven's SS

[Marvin S]

Anyone know the outside dia of these blanks or maybe they have fired them in a 25 rimfire rifle? I have a chance to buy a rifle with a perfect bore but wanted to see if this is an option or not. Thanks.:veryconfu

[oldred]

I can't answer your question but I sure would like to know myself, I have been told it will work and I have been told it's too risky don't do it!

[DLCTEX]

The nail gun blanks are much too hot for use with either a bullet or boolit. You would be treading in dangerous territory if used for any thing but a bang.

[Mk42gunner]

I have seen them advertised as ".27 cal" whether they are or not is anybodies guess.

After seeing how far into concrete they will drive a nail, after going through a treated 2x4; I have to agree with DLCTEX, I wouldn't do it without more info than the old my cousin's wife's brother's uncle's bookie says it will work.

Robert

[oldred]

I have some that have a paper plug in the end instead of a crimp so what I was thinking of was dumping the powder and replacing it with a known variety? These things fit the 25 chamber in my old rifle but I have been hesitant to try this.



Marvin, my apologies for highjacking your thread but I hope the info is what we are both looking for.

[Marvin S]

Ok thanks, if I end up with it I'll look at making my own cases with the offset primer.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've used the RWS Sinoxid 6.8 mm blanks in a Stevens Buckhorn bolt action rifle with .257 caliber round balls. The shells fit the chamber and the ball exits the barrel with no signs of excessive pressure. Accuracy is such that it will hit my hat every time if I hang it over the end of the barrel. I haven't tried the American .27 caliber versions as I'm still trying to figure out what those power level colors mean.

I haven't tried these blanks in anything more fragile, like a Stevens Favorite, nor have I tried using "real" cylindro-conical boolits with the blanks. I do not recommend others doing any of this. However, I do appeal to the ammunition companies to resume manufacture of the .25 Stevens in order to keep me from putting myself "at risk.":-o

[uscra112]

The nail gun blanks are much too hot for use with either a bullet or boolit. You would be treading in dangerous territory if used for any thing but a bang.

Right. The reason that powder-actuated driver cartridges are made in sizes that do not fit firearms is exactly that - the power level is such that it would damage and even blow up some guns. You only have to spend a day driving studs into concrete with one to appreciate that. (I did, last summer.) Even though the driver gun weighs 6 or 7 pounds, the recoil is best described as "stout". On par with a 9mm pistol, if that means anything.

[Multigunner]

I've used blanks that appeared to be 7mm diameter in a homemade pengun I made many years ago, using a split shot fishing line weight of the same diameter as a boolit.
Those had plenty of power, the projectile penetrating several planks with power to spare, and the pen gun held together with no sign of undue stress.
This was a much stronger than average pen gun though, I put some work into it.

Of course this was all done on a Ugandan flagged private yatch in international waters and the statute of limitations ran out long ago, just in case anyone asks.

Not sure of the nominal size of those blanks, I found a partial plastic strip of them near a construction site.

In Mexico they made rimfire rifles that propelled projectiles using nail gun blanks to get around laws against .22 rimfire rifles. Not sure if these were .22 bore or .177 bore.
With Mexico being flooded with guns these days I don't know if these are still necessary.

Theres a chamber adapter made for .32 rimfire guns, these use a .22 rimfire blank in an offset chamber to drive a buckshot.

In Britain gangs used to convert Brocock precharged pneumatic air guns , which used a pumped up air cartridge that looked like a real cartridge, to hold a 8mm theatrical blank in the removable air cartridge to be struck by the valve stem, to drive a slug at lethal velocities.

[MT Chambers]

The .25 nail gun shots were too small for my .25 Stevens RF, must need to use .27 or some such.

[Multigunner]

Right. The reason that powder-actuated driver cartridges are made in sizes that do not fit firearms is exactly that - the power level is such that it would damage and even blow up some guns. You only have to spend a day driving studs into concrete with one to appreciate that. (I did, last summer.) Even though the driver gun weighs 6 or 7 pounds, the recoil is best described as "stout". On par with a 9mm pistol, if that means anything.

The 7mm blanks I found were very short with a star crimped end, not much longer than the rim was wide. These also had a very thick rim, though the metal seems to have been either thin or soft. I would expect this sort of blank comes in different lengths and power levels for differing applications.
I have seen blanks that were fairly long, and stepped in diameter, with the case mouth closed by a laquered disc. Are these the type your gun used?

Years ago they were trying to market a magnum .25 auto cartridge. The pistols made for this round were just modified .25 ACP blowback pocket pistols. The case was somewhat longer than the standard .25 ACP.
Perhaps a centerfire conversion could be worked up to put a .25 rimfire back in action.

I looked up the .25 rimfire and found case mouth diameter listed as .276.

[shotman]

the hilti 27 cal in the green load and a No 3 buck shot will shoot fine in a 25cal stevens . Take a light tuff of cotton and put in chamber and drop a No 3 shot and the green load it will do good enough to get squirrels at 40yds
If you want to make up a bunch use a small drop of gorilla glue and set the shot on top of the power load till it dries . The yellow or red is too hot but will put a pellet through a 4x4
as a note some of the stevens extractors are loose so make sure the load goes on top and not under as you close the gun . I know

[Multigunner]

Heres what I found on .25 Stevens dimensions
Bullet diameter .251"
Neck dia .276"
Base dia .276"
Rim dia .333"
Case length 1.125"
Cartridge OAL 1.395"

[Marvin S]

Thanks for all the great info guy's I have that Lee oversize 25 ACP TL mold I thought of using.

[Multigunner]

It just occured to me that using blanks in this manner is somewhat similar to the method used with false muzzle breech loaders back in Harry Pope's day.
They loaded the bullet from the muzzle till it contacted a cartridge case shaped stop in the chamber, but used a cartridge case loaded at the breech with powder and an over the charge wad as the propelling charge.
They loaded from the muzzle so the bullet would be centered without cant and fully engraved before it started its journey, and also there would be no lead flash at the base of the bullet.
There was no throat as such, origin of rifling being directly in front of the case mouth.

[Chev. William]

The following is copied from a post on another Forum and thread:
Blanks have been used both in Europe and through Dixie Gun Works here to act as 'primers' in machined brass cartridges with offset chambers so the blank rim is positioned to be fired by the original RF firing pin. They are intended to be filled with Powder and have a bullet seated in them, the European ones use a heeled round nosed or semi-pointed nosed bullet and Dixie says theirs work with Round balls also.

Industrial Powder tool loads come in a range of power ratings from 1, the weakest, to 12, the strongest. They also come in two types of closures, Star crimped and roll crimp over a seal wad. I would think the Star crimped ones would work similar to the Olden Times Bench Rest shooters technique of loading a bullet then inserting a Cartridge with a wad crimped in the mouth, to get the bullet exactly positioned where they thought they would get maximum accuracy. The roll crimped ones could also be used but I would worry about wad residue left in the bore for the next round to find.
Wikipedia provides this list:
"Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):

In brass casing:
Color-coding (Velocity)
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"

I have also seen a listing for a intermediate loading with a brass case and Blue tip but do not remember it's place in this range of loadings. The velocity ratings obviously apply to some standard fastener and it's positioning in the tool and the tip to point of impact distance, as All Tool usage requires the 'muzzle' of the Tool to be in strong contact with the target point to release the safety and allow the tool to fire.

Loads are listed as available in .22, .25, and .27 calibers. In the past I have used .22 Grade 7 (Nickle-Gray loads shaped like a .22 Shot shell) in a Ruger Standard Automatic with a machined steel 'furnace' or blank firing adapter attached to the muzzle in Military Training. It provided very reliable functioning of the action, a LOUD report, and at night a flame about 18 inches long. It made a very effective Attention Getting device for inattentive Sentries at night.

ADDED by EDIT 20130817:
Current .22 Caliber Grade 2 Brown Tipped Load is in a case with the following measurements:
Rim diameter +.274"; Rim thickness =.040"; Body Diameter above rim =.225"; Body diameter just below shoulder =.224"; Neck Diameter =.205"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.354"; Height to top of shoulder =.378"; Height to bottom of star crimp =.483"; Overall Length =.503"; Head Stamp is "Super X", a Winchester-Western trademark. The shape is reminiscent of a .22 long rifle Shot shell but considerably shorter.

Current .25 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements;
Rim diameter =.296"; Rim thickness =.047"; Body diameter =.244" to .245"; Overall Length =.398" to .399"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .287"; Head Stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

Current .27 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements:
Rim diameter =.329"; Rim thickness =.050; Body diameter =.2695" to .270"; Overall Length =.411"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .275"; Head stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

Previous observations of a Grade 7 Gray on Nickel Loads showed it was in a .22 Long rifle length Shot shell case and would function through a .22 Long rifle chambered firearm easily and reliably. SAMMI Dimensions for the .22 Long Rifle Shot Cartridge are as follows;
Rim diameter = .278"; Rim thickness =.043"; Body Diameter =.226" cylindrical; Neck diameter =.217"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.6506"; Height to top of shoulder =.7078"; Height to bottom of star crimp = Not Listed; Overall Length =.990"

I hope this is useful to other readers of this thread.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[pietro]

.

FWIW, nailgun power loads use an explosive propellant, containing Nitroglycerin.

http://www.ramset.com/pdfs/MSDS/MSDS_PAT_Loads-2011.pdf


.

[Chev. William]

Thank you for the MSDS post. I was unaware that Olin made Powder tool Loads in .32 and .38 Center Fire calibers, now I will need to search out the data.
Your observation that They contain Nitroglycerin while true, is incomplete.
The propellant is apparently a "Double Base" type smokeless powder, using both Nitroglycerin and Nitrocellulose mixed with Dibutyl phthalate and initiated by a Lead compound as primer mix.
Very similar to most of our reloading supplies unless we are using Black Powder and none Lead containing Primers.
As with ANY propellant Powder or Primer, actual use in a well ventilated site is recommended, but then again, who would willingly be in a unventilated small enclosed volume when firing cartridges?
I, for one, do my shooting at either a properly built and managed Commercial Indoor Range, for pistols, or Outdoors at a Commercially Operated Range, for Rifles and at outdoor permitted Hunting areas (not very often any more, my body is no longer up to long hilly hikes nor exposed overnight camping).
The MSDS indicates there is no appreciable risk of exposure from handling the Power loads, just some risk when they are fired.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

ADDED: A "Quick Search" with google located .32 S&W Blanks in both Black Powder and Smokeless Powder loadings.
The seem to be the roll crimp type with some sort of wad or plug tohold the charge in.

[Mk42gunner]

Explosive 1.4S s the same class as most small arms ammo.

If Olin/ Winchester is loading these, I would almost bet they are loaded with a non canister grade of W231. I could be wrong on that.



I was unaware that Olin made Powder tool Loads in .32 and .38 Center Fire calibers, now I will need to search out the data.

Seeing this made me think of a cable cutter we had on my first ship, it was powered by a .45 Colt load, miniscule original rim and all. I have no idea if it was blackpowder or smokeless, we never used it. It was in an old looking box in the armory, I guess it was meant to be a last ditch effort cut the spanwire if the pelican hook got jammed during underway replenishment.

The way it worked was you loaded it then hooked the wire and yanked. The trigger was in a slot the wire was supposed to trip.

Somehow I don't think it would be very fun to use in a real life situation.

Robert

[Chev. William]

Oh Yea, you brought back memories of my second Active duty ship, the U.S.S. Whippoorwill (MSC207). We used 'cable cutters' rigged on our contact mine sweeping gear cutter cables in flat plate finned clamp on sets of either two large or three medium ones per fin. The ones we used had 'break away' anvils if they fired. The trigger was from a 'release wire' that spanned the opening between the cutter bit and the anvil. When a mine mooring cable was guided into the space in the cutter, it broke the trigger wire just as it caught in the spot to be cut, the blank charge fired and drove the cutter bit through the cable then broke the anvil off so the next encounter with a mooring cable would not jam the setup. We used them in earnest to sweep old mines from Can Rhan Bay in Vietnam before it was reworked into the military harbor it was used for later on. We sank or exploded the cut contact mines with 20mm Gun fire after they surfaced.
Thanks for the reminder of that time in the "Late Great South East Asia Garden Party" 1963-1965.
Best Regards,
Chev. William, both an Ionizing Radiation and an Agent Orange registered Service connected Disabled Veteran, ETC USN retired.

[Marvin S]

Thanks for the new info guys.

[Chev. William]

A Query for the more experienced among us:

On a 'Whim' I bid on and won an auction for a "Stevens Favorite Barrel in 25-20 caliber".
It came in the USPS Mail today and I am in Quandary because the chamber does not match dimensions of either '25-20' cartridge I found. I have posted similar queries on Ammoguide, ASSRA, and CAS City hoping for some answers.

I just this evening received a used Barrel in the USPS Mail that has a chamber that does not match what is marked on the barrel.

First the barrel description:
It is a half round-half octagon design about 26 inches long with an 8 inch full octagon section. The Muzzle end measures .807 inch diameter with a square flat end.
The round section measures about .942 inch diameter just in front of the Octagon section.
The Octagon section measures about .972 inch across the flats.
The Breech end has two diameters with threads on the middle third.
The section near the octagon measures .800 inch diameter, the threaded area seems to be .790 inch outer diameter, and the breech end measures .740 inch diameter. The 'spigot overall length measures 1.553 inches, with the .740 inch section about .695 inch long.
Markings on the barrel are:
"J. Stevens A. & T. Co.", "Chicopee Falls, Mass.U.S.A. PAT. APR. 17 94" on the top flat.
"25-20" in 'roll stamp script' on the next flat.
and "61 674" just forward of the bottom flat.
No other markings were found.

Second the chamber measurements:
The chamber measurements do not match what Ammoguide has for either "25-20' cartridge, nor does the Cartridge Identifier tool come up with a match.
Dimensions measures so far:
Chamber depth = 1.175 inch.
Chamber shoulder diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber base diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber rim cut diameter = .348 inch.
Chamber Rim cut depth = .053 inch.
Barrel slugs .250 Bore and .257 Groove diameters.
Note that one of my ".250ALS" loaded cartridges will go into the chamber as found. But the barrel is 'oversize for the bullet, a .250 Diameter 50 Grain FMJ RN design.

I am hoping someone with more experience with the older cartridges will be able to help me identify what this barrel is designed to fit (action) and fire (cartridge).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: Added 20170316; I found a referenc eto a ".25-10 Halsted" with Dimensions and that seems to match up with this Barrel/chamber.
According to the Writhe up it was made from .22 Hornet Cases and intended to convert from shot out .25 Stevens to a 're-bored and rifled, then Chambered' conversion to a Center Fire and re-loadable cartridge.
Chev. William

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Appears to be close to the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge

https://www.google.com/search?q=25-20+Single+Shot&client=firefox-a&hs=Uq9&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kadHUoTqNJDQ9ASQxYC4Bg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1350&bih=609&dpr=1#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=dSCIHNe7dSJepM%3A%3BNoi13A_l_ApxuM%3Bhttps%2 53A%252F%252Fwww.loaddata.com%252Fimages%252Fdatab ase%252F25-20-Single-Shot.gif%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.loaddata.com%25 2Fmembers%252Fsearch_detail.cfm%253FMetallicID%253 D459%2526caliber%253D.25%2526caliberid%253D7%2526h eader%253D.25%252520Caliber%252520Reloading%252520 Data%3B488%3B220

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[Chev. William]

Jerry,
I looked at the two "25-20" cartridges identified by Ammoguide, the "SS" and the "WCF" are both 'bottleneck design' and this chamber appears to be straight walled. the Rim diameter of the two are also larger than the rim rebate as found, which by the way is cylindrical with no signs of any wear to the rebate and only slight wear to the extractor cut walls. Another reply indicates, like my own trial as listed at the bottom of my post, that it looks like a .25 Stevens RF chamber cut into the 25-20 size barrel. Also it is suggested the barrel fits either a Model 44 or a Model 44-1/2 Stevens Action.
Still too soon to make a decision on the information received to date.
Thank you for the response. Also I used one of the "Ranch Dog" .25ACP bullets you sent to slug the bore and viewed under a 20 poser 'loope' it engraves rifling with sharp edges and the driving bands show contact with the groove outer diameter all the way around the bullet. I drove it nose first from the chamber to the muzzle with a 3/16 Diameter hard brass rod and a hammer. the 'hammer end of the rod was starting to mushroom by the time the bullet got to the muzzle.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[mikeym1a]

I have seen them advertised as ".27 cal" whether they are or not is anybodies guess.

After seeing how far into concrete they will drive a nail, after going through a treated 2x4; I have to agree with DLCTEX, I wouldn't do it without more info than the old my cousin's wife's brother's uncle's bookie says it will work.

Robert
They don't 'shoot' the nails through anything. The powder pressure drives a large metal rod, which drives the nail into the backing material. And it is at point blank range. You are literally putting the "Hilti" gun right on the surface, and pulling the trigger. I have no Idea what kind of pressure they might produce. I do know they come in at least 4 different power levels, and are color coded. I have a bunch, and was planning on making me a 'gun' to use them up. I just hadn't gotten around to it. As long as you have a good, solid breach and a decent barrel, I don't know what the trouble would be. They might, however, be too stout for an old Stevens. mike

[Chev. William]

Which 'color' and Caliber Loads do you have?
I have samples of Brown/brass .22 caliber, Green/brass .25 caliber and Green/brass .27 caliber of current production.
I also have some grey/nickel .22 caliber ones left form about forty years ago (they were purchased in late 1969 or early 1970).
Best I did find on line a listing of the color codes and the 'power' of each load grades 1 through 12.
It is posted on this thread earlier.

others have posted results of their experiments on using Powder Tool Loads on the internet and generally found that grade 3 or less were very usable in antique firearms.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[mikeym1a]

My stash is all older odds and ends that were sitting on shelves around the Hilti guns. When they did an inventory, they were going to throw them all away, and I said I would dispose of them! Knowing me, they grinned and said 'BE CAREFUL'. I have several hundred of different sizes and power levels. I have a couple of barrels, just need to rig up some type of receiver. Some kind of home brew like the 'Favorite', but heavier.

[mikeym1a]

I didn't like that post count, so here's one more. :holysheep

[mikeym1a]

Hhhmmmm. Now that I think about it, I wonder what I did with them? I rearranged my room a few months ago, and haven't seen them since. Where DID I put them? GGGGGRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

[Chev. William]

My stash is all older odds and ends that were sitting on shelves around the Hilti guns. When they did an inventory, they were going to throw them all away, and I said I would dispose of them! Knowing me, they grinned and said 'BE CAREFUL'. I have several hundred of different sizes and power levels. I have a couple of barrels, just need to rig up some type of receiver. Some kind of home brew like the 'Favorite', but heavier.

Thinking of your idea for a home brew action similar to a Stevens Favorite, There is a Thread on another Forum site where a man is machining a "Model 15 with improvements", using NC equipment, out of blocks of Tool Steel and his work that was posted to date had lots of photos of setups and parts in progress. I do not know where it is at the moment, sorry.

Anyway, there might be some ideas you could use in his posts.

And the strength of the action would be MUCH more than an original.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Hhhmmmm. Now that I think about it, I wonder what I did with them? I rearranged my room a few months ago, and haven't seen them since. Where DID I put them? GGGGGRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

I had that, and still have it, from when my wife "rearranged the house" then went into the Hospital for surgery, the surgery was successful, but she died about a week later from unrecognized complications. Now, where did she put my collection of old,reference, "Machinery's Handbooks"?
And my AutoCAD 2002 Software???
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

There is a Blogger on the internet that has adapted .32 Colt cartridges to use .27 Caliber Powder tool Loads in antique revolvers and Multiple barrel pistols he owns.

http://32rimfire.blogspot.ca/

A similar idea could be use to adapt the .25 Caliber Powder Tool Loads to fire in a .25 Stevens Chambered rifle. Perhaps a piece of thin wall tubing to hold bullet and Load conveniently for insertion in the chamber.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

Have you tried chambering the 17WSM? Just to see if the case diameter was the same? If so you could cut them down to size, reduce the powder load and load them with a .25 bullet...maybe? Here is a blurb about thee 17WSM that I lifted from Outdoor Life ammo review:
"The .17 Win. Super Mag. comes with a workingman's pedigree. The case is based off a .27--caliber nail-gun blank, which was modified and necked down to take the .17-caliber bullet. (These blanks, which come in three calibers--.22, .25, and .27--are a big business for Winchester, according to Greg Kosteck, the company's marketing director.) Empty, the case measures 1.200 inches (vs. 1.064 inches for the .17 HMR). And its case walls are about 50 percent thicker than the .17 HMR's, to handle the higher pressures the round generates (33,000 psi vs. 26,000 psi for the .17 HMR)."

[NavyVet1959]

Current .25 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements;
Rim diameter =.296"; Rim thickness =.047"; Body diameter =.244" to .245"; Overall Length =.398" to .399"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .287"; Head Stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

Looks like the .25 power loads might fit a .22 magnum chamber, depending upon whether you have a "tight" or "loose" chamber.

[marlinman93]

Appears to be close to the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge




The .25-20 SS and the .25-21 are both a much longer case than the 1.175" listed above! Almost an inch longer!

[Traffer]

Looks like someone might have botched a 25RF conversion to a 25/20 and the barrel sat.

Jerry,
I looked at the two "25-20" cartridges identified by Ammoguide, the "SS" and the "WCF" are both 'bottleneck design' and this chamber appears to be straight walled. the Rim diameter of the two are also larger than the rim rebate as found, which by the way is cylindrical with no signs of any wear to the rebate and only slight wear to the extractor cut walls. Another reply indicates, like my own trial as listed at the bottom of my post, that it looks like a .25 Stevens RF chamber cut into the 25-20 size barrel. Also it is suggested the barrel fits either a Model 44 or a Model 44-1/2 Stevens Action.
Still too soon to make a decision on the information received to date.
Thank you for the response. Also I used one of the "Ranch Dog" .25ACP bullets you sent to slug the bore and viewed under a 20 poser 'loope' it engraves rifling with sharp edges and the driving bands show contact with the groove outer diameter all the way around the bullet. I drove it nose first from the chamber to the muzzle with a 3/16 Diameter hard brass rod and a hammer. the 'hammer end of the rod was starting to mushroom by the time the bullet got to the muzzle.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Drm50]

I have a Remington 22 nailer and a Ramset. I have drove a lot of fasteners with them. A few years ago a guy gave me a plastic bag full of "shells". They are long as a long rifle ending up in
a crimp. They were to long for my drivers. A few yrs ago decided to use them for 4th of July
blanks. Shot in 22 BA, rim blew out and blew the magazine out of gun.

[NavyVet1959]

I have a Remington 22 nailer and a Ramset. I have drove a lot of fasteners with them. A few years ago a guy gave me a plastic bag full of "shells". They are long as a long rifle ending up in
a crimp. They were to long for my drivers. A few yrs ago decided to use them for 4th of July
blanks. Shot in 22 BA, rim blew out and blew the magazine out of gun.

It's best to experiment with single shot firearms so that if the case blows out, there is less chance of damage.

If you're just wanting to use them to make a bang, it would be easy enough to create a "slam fire" firearm with a .22 to 12-gauge chamber adapter and pieces of 3/4" and 1" steel plumbing pipe and a pipe nipple.

Or maybe even less than that since you're just wanting noise. I'm thinking a thick flat piece of steel with a hole drilled in it the same diameter as the power load. That way, the rim would sit slightly above the steel plate. Then hit it with a small sledge hammer so that you are crushing the primer all the way around instead of just a small portion like you would with a normal rimfire firing pin.

[Paul5388]

I have shot the .27 caliber power loads from a .25 Stevens. I used a 50 gr .25 ACP bullet seated from the breech. Nothing out of the ordinary happened, but I did have to use a cleaning rod to extract the spent case (I need a new extractor). That made it sort of a pain to shoot.

[slumlord44]

I have had the same experience with the .27 loads. Work fine but usually need a ramrod to extract. Breach load the bullets with a length of dowel. Have some .25 bullets from a couple of sources. Accuracy at 25 yards is as good as the Canuck factory ammo i have.

[NavyVet1959]

I've had to use a rod to eject the brass sometimes in the bolt action .22LR that I have tested with if I'm using the #2 (brown) loads. I think it is because the nose of the cartridge is star crimped and when it expands, it binds into the chamber with more resistance than the extractor on the bolt can overcome. I don't consider that too big of a deal though. I couldn't find the size rod I wanted in brass locally, so I made one out of steel and put electrical heat shrink tubing over it so that it is fully enclosed and no steel can touch the barrel.

[Geezer in NH]

I have a retriever trainer that throws a padded "bird" the size of the large beer cans. Instructions are to use 22rf loads for a nail gun. I can tell you only use the mild ones the heavier ones could break you wrist and make you deaf!!!

My dog was not gun shy but ran away on the first shot. It took 2 weeks of conditioning to have her not be afraid of gunshots again.

[NavyVet1959]

My dog was not gun shy but ran away on the first shot. It took 2 weeks of conditioning to have her not be afraid of gunshots again.

So, you're saying that it took 2 weeks for her to go deaf? :)

[samaddy1]

17 wsm yes pulled bullet and emptied powder. cut the bottle neck off. loaded with minimal .17 lee powder dipper of trail boss loaded with 55 grain .257 bullet came out the barrel hit the 10 yard target, no louder than a bb gun.. need some good 25 stevens load data

[mattw]

Somewhat reminds me of the old fire alarm/extinguishers we had in our old farm house. Bimetal strip with a small "barrel" on the end with a 32'ish blank. The arm was under spring tension and when the bimetal melted it swung around and hit a glass bottle with the firing pin. Thus setting the round off for warning and dumping a tiny amount of soda water.

[marlinman93]

One thing to remember if you decide to use nail gun shot charges and breech seat bullets. The lowest pressure charges wont be as hot as they would if the slug or round ball was simply inserted into the chamber or fixed on top of the charge. Inserting the bullet into the bore with a breech seating tool effectively increases chamber volume, thus lowering chamber pressures. So although the shot charges are a bit hotter than original Stevens .25RF loads, if breech seating a bullet, you've reduced the pressure.
I've read reports people have done using both methods and checking velocities with the same gun using both methods. The breech seated bullets did reduce velocities, and they didn't exhibit excess pressures with the lowest level nail gun charges.

[Chev. William]

The FULL standard range of "Powder Actuated Tool Loads" (PTL) is no longer available to the general Public. The Full range is from grade 1 (weakest) through Grade 12 (Strongest).
typically:
.22 PTL Grades 1-6 can occasionally be found with 2-4 most often available in big box Stores.
.25 PTL Grades 2-6 can occasionally be found with 2-4 most often found.
.27 PTL Grades 2-5 can occasionally be found with 3-4 most often found.
Before 'things' got tight, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s .22 PTL were available from suppliers in grades 1-9 with the ones I bought in grade 7 being in Nickel Plated ".22 shot shell' shape Star crimp blanks with a Grey Tip Paint Code.
These Grade 7 PTL Cycled a Ruger Standard Automatic pistol with a Blank Firing Adapter (BFA) on the muzzle reliably, and I used it, and them, in my Navy Reserve Counterinsurgency Training exercises very Successfully. the Charge was also very Loud, for startle effect, and at night would project a 18 inch 'flame' out the BFA vents. Very Sobering to a Trainee who 'screwed up' a Sentry's challenge procedure.

By the way, the closest to .25 Stevens size and power is the .27 CAL Grade 2 PTL; which is slightly Loose in the .25 Stevens chamber, but can be used with care from my experiences.

Chev. William

[Drm50]

I had a learning experience with the .22 cal Ammo. I have a Remington gun that uses crimped
shells. A guy gave me several boxes of Win ammo that is long as 22lr with wad in the case mouth.
They were to long for Rem gun chamber. Got the bright idea to let grandkids shoot them up on
4th July. I was going to use a beat up Daisy bolt action for the purpose. I decided to shoot one
to make sure they worked ok. When it went off it blew the magazine apart and out of the gun.
No damage to the action, I could have fired it again. The color code on these are Red, I still have
99 of them. Don't take any second had info on this. Different guns may work out. The condition
of individual guns are different. I have a box of 45cal crimped power shells. They are for a punch
that makes the holes for bolts in the web of train rail. There is no way I would fire one in my
45/70 just because they fit.

[Steppenwolf]

I use .27 cal as primers for my Wanzl Extra-Corps Gewehr M1954/67 224080 Caliber: 14x33Rmm Wanzl rimfire 224077

[Chev. William]

To All on this Thread:
I repeat the Color code below copied from another post (Thread: reloadable .32 rimfire brass):
"In brass casing:
Color-coding (Velocity)
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s) 1.31 grains propellant
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"
I have also run across a Brass cased Blue coded Load but do not remember where I saw it or what it's relative Power level was.
I hope this list is of use to you.

Dim50: What is the case of the PTL blank you fired? Red on Brass is Standard Grade 5; but Red on Nickel is standard grade 11!
A MAJOR difference!

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[oldred]

Chev.William, I have had to put my RF and small caliber wildcat projects on the back burner due to having too many projects going on, most being farm and not firearm related, but I wanted to just say thanks for the wealth of info you have been providing.

[Drm50]

Win Yellow Brass, Red Laquered Wad

[Chev. William]

Win Yellow Brass, Red Laquered Wad
That indicates they Are Grade 5 PTL charges WAY more Powerful than The Grades 1, 2 or 3 that have been used previously with varying 'success' The Strongest I have tried To date is a Grade 4 PTL in a 1915 "Favorite" action.
The Bullet Exited the Barrel.
The Breech Block held but bent the Pivot screw so the 'new Head space was in excess of .080".
The PTL case head had 'ballooned to Twice the rim Thickness and moved backward out of the Adapter case.
The PTL case rim had Vented upward with a hole about 1/.8" long by about one rim width wide.

The pivot screw has since been replaced with one made from a Grade 8 Cap screw body, suitably machined.
Others have stated:
- that Grade 3 PTL seems to yield mildly supersonic velocities in both .25 CAL and .32 CAL rifles.
- that Grade 2 PTL seems to Yield about 950fps to 1050fps out of both Calibers.
- that Grade 1 PTL seems to yield about 600fps to 700 fps out of both calibers.
The above is from memory rather than having checked my notes on the Subject.
Chev. William

[Drm50]

If you look at the construction of a Daisy 22 BA you will see it's not near as supportive to case as
a falling block type action.

Most people don't have any respect for the power of these power shells. If one were to look into
all the specialty tools and different industrial ammo they would be surprised. I was stupid to fire
them but I thought as unobstructed blank it would be ok. Wrong it blew bottom out of case. There
must have been a good bit of pressure to blow the mag apart and out of gun.

[Traffer]

That indicates they Are Grade 5 PTL charges WAY more Powerful than The Grades 1, 2 or 3 that have been used previously with varying 'success' The Strongest I have tried To date is a Grade 4 PTL in a 1915 "Favorite" action.
The Bullet Exited the Barrel.
The Breech Block held but bent the Pivot screw so the 'new Head space was in excess of .080".
The PTL case head had 'ballooned to Twice the rim Thickness and moved backward out of the Adapter case.
The PTL case rim had Vented upward with a hole about 1/.8" long by about one rim width wide.

The pivot screw has since been replaced with one made from a Grade 8 Cap screw body, suitably machined.
Others have stated:
- that Grade 3 PTL seems to yield mildly supersonic velocities in both .25 CAL and .32 CAL rifles.
- that Grade 2 PTL seems to Yield about 950fps to 1050fps out of both Calibers.
- that Grade 1 PTL seems to yield about 600fps to 700 fps out of both calibers.
The above is from memory rather than having checked my notes on the Subject.
Chev. William

I have black ones that say grade 5. They are brass. The guy I got them from tried to talk me into getting milder ones. I have not fired any yet. I made a die swages a 22 cal boolit with a post on the bottom. I open the brass crimp slightly to accept the post and recrimp the brass onto the post so I get actual "rounds". But they are an odd shape. I have some 22lr barrels and am someday going to make a chamber on one to fit the new 25/22 post rounds. Maybe I should build that thing a little stronger than previously considered?

[Chev. William]

Traffer,
chuckling, Indubitably Yes!
Perhaps a Chambering similar to an old Marlin model 56 which had the Body of The cartridge supported full Circumference with the rim housed in the Bolt face. the spring loaded Extractors (two on opposite sides) were retracted slightly to the outside by sloped cuts in the barrel Breech face. the extractor on the Ejection port side had a squareish face engaging the Front of the rim while the one on the opposite side had a sloped face toward the rim. This allowed the fixed ejector to force the rim past the sloped face; so the case could leave the bolt face sideways out of the Ejection port in the receiver.
Note that Marlin left the Bottom side of the rim recess in the bolt 'open so the fresh cartridge entered the Extractors from the bottom and in case of rim failure the gasses would vent through the Magazine well out the Bottom away form the shooter's face.

A 1890 Winchester has a single springy extractor on the side and the Bolt face has a Channel machined vertically in the Face to 'hold' the Rim, with the case body fully supported in the chamber. Rim Failures vent in both up and down in 1890 design, exposing a shooter's face to possible 'peppering' with failed rim bits and gasses.

A Ruger 'Standard Automatic 22LR pistol has the Bolt face enclosed by the Receiver when closed and ready to fire. Ruger uses a single spring loaded pivoted extractor on the side of the bolt toward the ejection port.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

Traffer,
chuckling, Indubitably Yes!
Perhaps a Chambering similar to an old Marlin model 56 which had the Body of The cartridge supported full Circumference with the rim housed in the Bolt face. the spring loaded Extractors (two on opposite sides) were retracted slightly to the outside by sloped cuts in the barrel Breech face. the extractor on the Ejection port side had a squareish face engaging the Front of the rim while the one on the opposite side had a sloped face toward the rim. This allowed the fixed ejector to force the rim past the sloped face; so the case could leave the bolt face sideways out of the Ejection port in the receiver.
Note that Marlin left the Bottom side of the rim recess in the bolt 'open so the fresh cartridge entered the Extractors from the bottom and in case of rim failure the gasses would vent through the Magazine well out the Bottom away form the shooter's face.

A 1890 Winchester has a single springy extractor on the side and the Bolt face has a Channel machined vertically in the Face to 'hold' the Rim, with the case body fully supported in the chamber. Rim Failures vent in both up and down in 1890 design, exposing a shooter's face to possible 'peppering' with failed rim bits and gasses.

A Ruger 'Standard Automatic 22LR pistol has the Bolt face enclosed by the Receiver when closed and ready to fire. Ruger uses a single spring loaded pivoted extractor on the side of the bolt toward the ejection port.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Yes I will be paying close attention to the extractor and bolt face. In my experimentation with 22lr i have had quite a few "case failures" in a couple different guns. In an old Remington 514 I had one blow the extractor out never to be found. The bad part was the the case ruptured in a way the allowed the gasses to exit through the firing pin hole, through the bolt, back directly into my face. Fortunately I was wearing safety glasses. Since then I have been looking carefully and critically at bolt face design. It appears from the new guns that I have that the idea of venting potential case ruptured gasses down through the magazine has been adopted as the favored way to go. I see that many rim fire bolt faces have a void on the bottom which serves that purpose. I had a couple of ruptures on these also. One splitting the metal magazine at the seam. It took me a couple of days to find the spring. lol

[EDG]

When any of the crimped rim fire cases are blown out straight on firing they will damage the chamber of your rifle.

[Traffer]

When any of the crimped rim fire cases are blown out straight on firing they will damage the chamber of your rifle.

How so?

[Chev. William]

EDG,
Please Explain your Comment.

I know that if a Short is fired in a Long or Long Rifle chamber, it does leave a 'burnt Powder' Ash ring at the Mouth of the short case in the Longer chamber that, if allowed to accumulate, can make extraction of a fired Long rifle difficult.

Is this what you are referring to?

Chev. William