Need some help figuring out a reloading misshap.

[RangerBob]

Took some loads out to the range on Saturday.

.458WM
50gr 4895
540gr Paper Patch bullet sized to .459 w/ lube spread on patch.
Velocity should be around 1500fps
NOTE: these bullets are not very tight in the case. You can almost finger seat the bullets

The first round worked fine and landed just where I thought it would.

The second round popped the primer but did not ignite the powder. The primer drove the bullet firmly into the rifling, but it appeared that NO powder burned. I didn't have a good dowel rod, so my range session was over. I went home and got the bullet out of the barrel pretty easily.

What happened?

I'm wondering if the bullet was so loose that the primer had enough power to drive the bullet AND powder forward before the powder reached ignition temp.

Is this unsafe? Should I crimp the remaining rounds before I fire them (I don't want to because the paper patches might tear).

BTW - This is the same powder charge I use with a 525gr RCBS RNFPGC bullet cast out of wheel weights. That load is very accurate and I have had zero problems. However, that bullet is crimped hard AND is seated deeper in the case.

Any help is appreciated.

[dmftoy1]

Well I don't know if I can contribute much as I've never loaded paper patched boolits before but when I first started loading for my .50 S&W I had a very similiar occurrence (more than once).

I was using H110 (Win 296) and what I'd end up with was the boolit in the rifling and a whole wad of unburned powder sitting behind it. I varied my crimp, and tried a few different things and NEVER got it right until I changed primers. (Went to a magnum pistol primer instead of the winchester LP's that are supposedly good for magnum and non-magnum loads).

Now by the time I switched primers I was using a fairly good crimp so I can't say that the crimp wasn't necessary to get that powder lit (and I suspect it was) but in my case it was primarily the primers not being hot enough for the powder I was using.

Good Luck!

Have a good one,
Dave

[pdawg_shooter]

I use a Federal 215 in my 458 and have never have had a problem, even with H335.

[PPpastordon]

RangerBob,
That does sound strange to me, but primarily because I always saw 4895 as a relatively easy powder to ignite.
This is a problem I have experienced; but only with lower loads of ball powders. I did have a similar problem with a few rounds of surplus 7X57 ammo. When I mentioned it to the friend I got it from he responded (something like), "I thought I told you to just pull the bullets. Didn't I tell you that ammo had been under water where it was stored at?"
Are your case necks expanded? Anyway, maybe they are too loose. Maybe you need a taper crimp of some sort. I would think it would be less likely to tear the paper. You might also try a little faster powder. Something like 4198.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck - and let us know how things work out.

[Pilgrim]

I'd guess that that load is around 80% load density, maybe more. It doesn't sound likely that the primer force moved the powder & boolit far enough, fast enough to prevent the powder from igniting. I'd expect at least some powder ignition. I'd suspect a problem with the primer first. Possibly a weak primer, a primer not seated deep enough, or a light firing pin strike. After that I'd suspect the powder. A final test would be to make up the same load, use cream of wheat or some similar "incompressible filler" to fill the case and hold the powder against the primer, and also to keepp the boolit from moving back into the case so you can seat the boolit into the lands. I wouldn't use kapok or dacron as the filler for this test. Let us know how it works out. Pilgrim

[Larry Gibson]

I had almost the very same thing occur in my Siamese 45-70 some years back when I was paper patching some 260 gr .45 Colt bullets. I had all the test loads made and then as an after thought I loaded two "fouler" rounds into unsized cases. The patched bullets were a slip fit but wouldn't fall out under their own weight. I don't recall (can't look the records up as a lot of my early loading notes the first wife sent to the dump) but seem to remember the load was in the 45 to 50 gr area of IMR 4895. I also think I would have been using CCI 200s as that's the primers I mostly used back then (mid '70s). The first shot went bang ok but the second shot did exactly as RangerBob's did. I elevated the muzzle and carefully extracted the case with the powder in it. Dumping it out on a target I could see that the powder on top of the pile (closest to he primer) had been "scortched". My assumption was with the huge expansion ratio of the 45-70 (same with the .458) that the bullet being driven forward increased the internal capacity so fast that the pressure did not stay high enough for the powder to really get going (in other words; the fire went out). All the loads with sized cases fired fine but accuracy was very poor ( I was driving that bullet way to fast - 2200+ fps) and most of my patched bullet experimentation ended there. I have often thought of trying it with one of the 300+ gr .45 Colt bullets available now and perhaps 4759, 2400 or 5744 powder but have not gotten around to it. So much to shoot, so little time.

Larry Gibson

[piwo]

That is interesting.

Many, if not most Benchrest (modern rifle) shooters load their bullets so that the thumb could easily push them in, and they don't experience this phenomena so I don't believe it's related to merely crimp pressure. I too have loaded 30-06 (without paper) behind 4831 using thumb pressure to seat the bullet and never had this happen. How the paper plays into that I don't know, unless the paper attracted moisture, the crimp was so lose that the moisture found it's way to the powder…...

I guess I’m kinda fishing because I can’t think of why that would happen.........

[RangerBob]

Mr. Gibson,

I think we may have experienced the same thing.

After I extracted the shell, I noticed that the powder was clumped. I had only loaded the rounds a couple weeks prior and they had been kept in climate control with the bullet noses down. So I don't think that lube ran down and clumped the powder. I now belive that the "scorching" action caused some of the grains to lightly fuse together.

Do you think I have any danger here?

What would you do to correct?

Thanks again.

[Poygan]

I have not experienced this in a rifle load but did have problems with WC820 in pistol loads. It has not occured since I went to magnum primers and also made certain I had a firm crimp. Its hard to believe the primer can drive the boolit into the barrel and not ignite the powder. In your case, I would guess its the lack of a firm crimp.

[brshooter]

I'm a benchrest shooter, and granted we only use on the average 0.002"-0.003" neck tension. But on the other hand, in the 6PPC the powder is loaded and usually compressed somewhat by the bullet. Most loads in the 6PPC are beyond Max. Loads spec'd by the loading manuals. The 6PPC in competition rifles are loaded hot, but the Lapua 220 Russian Brass and the match type chambers help. The hot loads used in Sako brass very quickly ruin the primer pockets. At one time, Lapua 220 Russian brass was not even made and the 220 Russian Sako brass was scarce and If you could find them you would have to pay $2-3 a piece.
I used Rem. 7.62X39 brass and ran it through a Redding form die set. The Rem. brass was a disaster in the 6PPC, hot loads seized up in the chamber if you didn't full length resize every shot so bad a mallet was used to open the bolt, and after 3-4 firing they would not hold a primer.

[beagle]

I have had the same problem in both the .458WM and the .375 H & H.

My experiences/probems have been with Reloader 7, 4895 and 4198. Cold, damp weather can also be a contributing factor.

The primer hits and ignites. The powder either doesn't ignite, it throws the bullet and unburned powder into the barrel or you get a snap-bang hangfire.

Not a desireable situation in any case.

Use a hotter primer. I usually use the Fed 215 and haven't had any probems in either since then./beagle

[Larry Gibson]

Mr. Gibson,

I think we may have experienced the same thing.

After I extracted the shell, I noticed that the powder was clumped. I had only loaded the rounds a couple weeks prior and they had been kept in climate control with the bullet noses down. So I don't think that lube ran down and clumped the powder. I now belive that the "scorching" action caused some of the grains to lightly fuse together.

Do you think I have any danger here?

What would you do to correct?

Thanks again.


I don't think there is any danger of SEE if that's what you mean (?). I've not seen any case of complete SEE with cast bullets or paper patched bullets. Hang fires yes but when the powder starts burning the softer friction or the cast bullet allows it to start moving again before pressure gets excessive. Since 4895 is an excellent powder for heavy loads in the .45 bores I'd not be concerned about usng it. I would make sure I had .002-.003" neck tension on the bullet. I'm of the opinion it is the large bore expansion with no neck tension on the bullet that has caused this problem in your .458, my 45-70 and Beagles 45-70 and .375. Crimping is not conducive to good accuracy with patched bullets.

Larry Gibson

[jhalcott]

Some thing I can NOT prove is a chemical reaction in the caseat firing. Due to the high nitrogen content of the powder a moisture CAN build up if the powder is not packed tight enough to force a continued burn. I know if I pour a charge of powder on the ground ,it will burn slowly. In the case it can't draw in additional oxygen. So the fire "goes out". An attempt to duplicate this with special tubes failed and cost a camera .

[Guido4198]

I had exactly the same problem with my .458 WinMag. If you stay with your current primer, you can solve the problem by adding poly-fil between the bullet and the powder. If you can change to WLRM( Winchester Large Rifle Magnum) that will also solve it for you. In my 458, 50 gn. IMR 4895( no filler) w/ WLRM primer and a 500 gn. cast gives Mv(ave)=1377, Es=16 and all holes touching @ 50 yds...one BIG hole..!!
Hope this helps....
Cheers,
Don

[Bigjohn]

RangerBob,

Ten years ago, I was at shooting match when the exact same thing you just described happened to a shooter I was standing next to on the line.

See if what I recall matches partly with the information you provided.

Ruger No. 1 in ,458WM using his home loads charge/powder unknown to me, 450gr 'J' word bullet not crimped and the load was approximately 75% of recommended charge.

All we heard was a 'pop', and when he opened the breech the case came out leaving a trail of powder. Prior to this incident, I had seen warnings about loading the .458WM under certain load densitys.

Recently I purchased a loading manual but an Australian Gunwriter named Nick HARVEY, he discusses in some details what he understands to be the reasons behind such incidents. I can re-read and summarise the section for you and see if we can not come up with an idea or two.

I will re-post with that summary.

John.

RangerBob,
If I am correct, your charge of 50 grains (IMR?) 4895 is only 66% of the maximum recommended charge for a 'J' bullet. Variations in velocity can be expected with that load density and no filler.

According to Nick Harvey's book, he suggests slow burning powders and magnum primers in cases such as the .458WM. If the load data you have does not indicate Mag Primers then back off the load by 5%.
IMHO, I would certainly apply more neck tension to the projectile and this could be done with out applying a crimp. IMO the reason for the failure of the powder to ignite (and IMHO, that is what occurred) is due to the lack of neck tension and volume of free space left by the size of the powder charge.

I would leave it up to your preferences as to what you do with that spare space.

John.

[dromia]

Any one been onto the powder manufacturers about this?

I wonder what their take on this would be?

[flinchnjerk]

From far out in left field....
RangerBob, do you decap your hulls before tumbling them, and if so, do you resize with the decapping pin removed from your sizing die? Is it possible that there was a chunk of tumbling media lodged in the flash hole? From my Bizarre Adventures in Reloading files: once, when loading .45ACP, and in one of my increasingly infrequent lucid states where I was actually glancing at the powder level in each hull... damn; how the bleep did I manage to double charge a round with an auto-indexing, automatic powder dropping press? Pulled the hull from the shell plate, poured the powder out on to the bench... nope, that's a single charge. Looked down into the hull... the bottom third of the case was packed solid with tumbling media. Packed so tightly that the decapping pin's having gone through it hadn't broken it up; inverting the hull and smacking it smartly on the bench would't dislodge it, either. Ended up having to poke and jab the media with a small screwdriver to bust up the lump. Lyman walnut media.

[joeb33050]

I don't know what happened or why, and never had a 458 WM. But, if I wanted a bullet to go 1500 fps from a 458 WM, I'd get out the Unique. In 45/70, somewhere around 15 grains works real well with bullets from 300 to 530 grains, is accurate and inexpensive to shoot. Somewhat more will get you to 1500 fps-loading manual! Also, SR4759 or IMR4227 or some of the ..dots will do the job.
I've never had luck with accuracy and reduced loads of slower powders, and don't see many/any others getting good accuracy with slower powders. And IMR4895 is slow compared to Unique.
I sometimes use the dreaded and forbidden Dacron wad with Unique.
What am I missing on the slow powder business?
joe brennan

[RangerBob]

#1 - The exact same 50gr of IMR-4895, with a 525gr RNFPGC greese groove bullet, will shoot 1.5" groups at 100yds. I don't think the powder is the problem. I have tried over 60 different loads in this rifle and this is one of the best. I all I changed was the bullet and the seating depth . . . but that may have been enough.

#2 - I don't tumble my cases very often, but I have tumbled these in the past. I have also annealled them (these cases are old). Could there have been a piece of cleaning media? Yeah, it could have happened, but I don't think so. I typically tumble with the old primer in place and then size the case with the decapping pin in place.

However, I do tend to prep cases, prime, and then leave the primed cases sitting around for awhile in the green 50 round plastic box. Is it possible that the primer got "moist" during the several months the case was primed but not loaded?

#3 - Big John - You describe EXACTLY what happened.

I tend to think that two factors I changed are probably to blame. The new bullet is very loose and would have almost no bullet pull. The load that failed was also seated very long . . . much longer than I seat the greese groove bullet that is so accurate. Therefore, the effective case capacity was greater and the bullet pull lighter.

[Bass Ackward]

When I started with the 458X2, I chose that case over the Win Mag because it was supposed to be a more .... efficient case design for reduced velocity use with a nice short throat. The creator of the round recommended Fed 215s with all loads. And I wondered, why?

I got to using 50 grains of 4895 with a 385 grain lead bullet, about 2000 fps for me, and had it fail exactly the same way. This is high density load and a computer predicted 40,000 psi. This was my first ever sub MOA cast bullet load in a 45 rifle. So you can imagine, I LOVED that load.

Bear in mind the bullet was a slightly larger diameter than the bore with good neck tension, crimped AND seated lightly into the lands, lit by the flame from hell. Pop!

I was able to extract the case easy enough that the powder column stayed pretty much together. The bottom 1" was almost a clearish white changing to a dull yellowish as you went up the column until you got about 1" from the primer where the powder blended into the original grey color.

All I can conclude from this was that that the primer did it's job. I mean, it seems reasonable. This is the incident where and when I got the bright idea to experiment with opening flash holes which is well documented up in the Shooters Section. After that adventure, I went back to regular cases with normal flash holes and been shooting that same load for 35 years now with no problems.

I would conclude that Larry's speculation on rapidly expanding case capacity do to bore size was the only explanation, unless the primer was supposed to scorch the whole powder column. Who knows? But having Quickload allows me to see that the smaller the case size to bore ratio is, the steeper (less time) is the pressure spike and then just how fast pressure drops from that point. With common loads in a 30-06, the pressure usually peaks about 1.5" to 2" from the case while my 458X2 peaked in the case and has already lost 50% of it's pressure down to 22,000 psi for this load. This is a VERY short time to light a flame, period.

This is probably why straight sided cases have a reputation for poorer ignition compared to bottle necked cases. Every time you pull the trigger setting off a wildly expanding gas, that statistics show you will be able to control and have it perform as you expect, things .... can .... go wrong. You are playing the odds. Maybe this just has to go down under the category of "**** happens".

[Bigjohn]

I believe that the Ballisticians would have a hard time explaining what happened to the likes of you and me.

I can only say what I believe are the factors which cause this to happen.

The factors as I see them in this case are; large capacity case with the projectile seated out further than normal, reduced charge (66% when most powder companies and gun writers recommend at least 75% load density), loose projectile hence reduced resistance to help pressure build up and possibly some others which I have missed.

IMHO due to one or more of these factors, the powder charge failed to ignite or fully ignite hence the scorched and unburnt powder found in the chamber or case. As I said your description matches almost exactly what happened to that shooter ten years ago except he was using 'J' word bullets.

Some of the powder was scorched and the rest was normal colour with some graduant between the extremes.

Primers in cases which are not loaded immediately would have to be exposed to some very extreme conditions to cause them to degrade. Consider the packaging that they come from the factory in; these are not sealed. I have primed cases in readiness for reloading several months before finishing the job (sometimes years) and experience no failures. Cases are stored in a plastic case guard.

IMO you may be able to solve your problem by increasing the neck tension. I would try some loads this way and see first before making any others changes such as magnum primers.

Best wishes,
John.

[RangerBob]

John,

I agree.

I think I am going to seat the bullets deeper and increase neck tension to more closing approximate the dementions of my very successfull grease groove bullut load (525gr RNFPGC cast from WW).

I understand that higher load density is better, but IMR specifically claims that you can take any published 4895 load and reduce it to 60%. Since top .458WM loads are compressed, it seemed quite safe to reduce to 66%. I am also using a 540gr PP bullet that is 40 grains heavier than the 500gr jacketed bullet used in the load data.

I'm willing to bet that deeper seating and more case neck tension will sort things out.

Thanks for the help.

bob.

[44man]

Some thing I can NOT prove is a chemical reaction in the caseat firing. Due to the high nitrogen content of the powder a moisture CAN build up if the powder is not packed tight enough to force a continued burn. I know if I pour a charge of powder on the ground ,it will burn slowly. In the case it can't draw in additional oxygen. So the fire "goes out". An attempt to duplicate this with special tubes failed and cost a camera .

Powder makes it's own oxygen. It is the pressure build up that makes it burn more aggressively in the case. Remove the pressure and it CAN fizzle.
By selecting a very hot primer with a very low pressure can help the matter, but how do we know which to use? If the primer moves everything foreward, increasing the case capacity before the powder gets a good start, S.E.E can happen and the cast boolit with it's lower friction is the only thing saving the gun and shooter.

[RangerBob]

Well, I took the remaining loads and modified them.

I seated all the bullet deeper.

Then I removed the decaping pin and ran all the loads part way into the sizing die to increase neck tension.

I had 8 rounds with 50gr of 4895 and 10 rounds with 33gr of 5744.

All rounds fired normally. Recoil was stiffer than the one load I fired that was seated quite long.

I think we figured out this one guys!

Thanks for all the help.

BTW - The patching failed and the bullets leaded the bore. Accuracy was non-existant. But at least they fired normally.

[twoworms]

A light load with 4895 + CCI primer will get ya every time....

I had this happen with a 45-70, it sucked to have my range day shot to heck over a loading problem.

Good luck,

Tim

P.S. Sorry if someone else post this before me.

[looseprojectile]

Saw my name mentioned in post #21.
I have had this same thing happen to me several times.
I go back to my old auto mechanic days, bout half a century ago. I learned that to make a gas engine run you need several things. Fuel, air, compression and ignition. This seems to me like trying to get a gas engine to run on zero or very little compression.
Powder is a lot like gas. Burns slow unless it is contained. [compression].

The cast loads that failed on me were a near full case of 4831 and 180 gr. boolit in a 30 06, powder looked wet and clumped and boolit was a foot up the bore.
I am amazed that such a large percentage of loads go bang instead of pfffft.
Happy shooting

[grumpy one]

looseprojectile, your experience worries me a little. I'm experimenting currently with compressed loads of 4831 in my 30-06 (with J bullets of course) and so far the results are very encouraging - last group I shot was 0.55" at 55 yards, and considering I'm a lousy shot and using an unmodified ex-Columbian army K98, I see an MOA, 2970 FPS load using cheap flat-nosed hunting bullets as a good thing. I have found though that accuracy falls way off if I decrease the pressure at all - and soot starts to happen as well. Despite the compressed load (six inch drop tube plus powder compression) and the tight case neck, I'm currently seeing a slight gain from applying a Lee factory crimp on top of everything else. So far, the load I've described leaves an exceptionally clean barrel and doesn't soot the case neck. Early in my experiments I tried reduced loads and got lots of hard sooting and lousy accuracy.

An interesting thing is that I've tried three different bullet weights (with corresponding recommended changes in the charge, but all in the compressed range) and every one of them has shot the best group I've ever had with that bullet - and I've never had a loose group with a compressed charge of this powder, in the fairly narrow range of bullet weights I've used.

WARNING: The load I've mentioned is listed in Lyman 46th Edition, and is shown as a "potentially most accurate load". I haven't mentioned powder or projectile here because I don't want anyone to try it on my say-so. Please don't fool around with drop-tube compressed loads without being sure the load is recommended in a reputable reference book. Even then, cross-check it against other sources including the powder manufacturer. Any overload can cause a blow-up, but some blow-ups are even worse than others.

[looseprojectile]

Grumpy;
I have used a whole bunch of H 4831, as years ago I could buy it for 50 cents per pound. Must have about 20 or so pounds on hand now, therefore I use it when it is known to be too slow. Dont need to download it.

I have also pulled fmj bullets from M 2 ball and inserted my cast boolits, good accuracy and little to no leading. Legal for deer that way.

If you don't get too wild and crazy with bullet weight It would be difficult to get too much H 4831 in a 30 06. If you are getting those kind of results, good for you.

I have an old loading manual that lists 52 grains max in a 6.5X55 Swede with a 160 grain rnsp., compressed load. I tried it once, awful heavy recoil, no worries.

Also surplus 4895 has been with me since the early 50s. Use it in lotsa rifles.
Life might be awfully dull if we followed much more closely, the rules, instructions, regulations and laws.:drinks:

DISCLAIMER, I would not suggest that anyone use any load not published in a loading manual, also the part about reducing loads to start is good advice.

Happy shooting

[Mohillbilly]

With reduced charges,and slow powder,in large straight cases you might look at duplex loads in Lymanns cast load manual.I belive in my old book it uses smokeless,and black in the load...

[leftiye]

Loose,
I have known people who would use that old surpus 4831 in 30-06 by simply scooping a case full from a drum and seating a bullet on top of it. 4831 was originally 20 mm. canon powder. Obviously, if you were to try this I won't be held responsible.

[RangerBob]

Second try:

This weekend I tried a second approach.

The .458WM has a long (3/4") tapered throat that makes it nearly impossible to seat cast bullets to the rifling. But paper patch bullet make that job a little easier.

I wanted to avoid the strange missfire that I had last time. So here's what I did:

I took the same 540gr PP bullets and seated them very long. They will be a crush fit to the rifling, just barely allowing the breach block to close. I figure that this should hold the bullet back a bit and allow pressures to rise before the bullet moves out of the way.

This long seating makes the OAL about 3.7". I looked around and found that 3.7" is about right for the 45-120 Sharps cartridge.

Accurate Powders has load data for the 45-120 with 5744. I studied the data and loaded 40gr of 5744. This is a couple grains shy of the Accurate data maximum. Additionally, the Accurate data was predicated upon a 31K PSI maximum. I should be able to nearly double that in the .458WM without any danger, so I should have lots of margin for safety.

5744 is markedly faster than the 4895 I was using when the missfire occured. This faster burn rate . . . along with the bullet crush fit should make for a better pressure rise and encourage good ignition.

Does anyone see any problem with this plan?

[chevyiron420]

i believe your problem with the other load was it didnt build up enough preasure, early enough to get a good burn started. because of long throat, lack of neck tension, large case volume, ect. and too slow of a powder. any change of one condition may have covered up the problem. i have also had similar problems where the powder did light, but poorly and crushed the case and blew back out of the action. also when i load cartridges with out loading data, i stick to the faster powders that are suitable at first, the after working it up i switch to a slower powder and start over. after a wile ill get to a powder thats too slow for the case and preasure and the velocities will start varying too much. i believe its because there isnt enough preasure for it to be stabile. when i drop back to the next faster powder the velocity evens out and thats usualy were i find the accuracy.
just my $.02 worth-phil:castmine:

[tom barthel]

Never had a problem like that. For prevention, you may try the Lee factory crimp die. If you are worried about the paper patch, just go slow and easy. You never know, it might work.

[Nazgul]

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who loads PP bullets in the 458 WM. Had a similar problem using light loads of IMR4895 and a 405 gr cast. Solved it by adding polyfill as recommended by guido. A small piece hold the powder over the primer and ignition is consistant. I was using the load to practice fast second/third shots.

People sure look funny when I haul out the 458 with 540gr PP bullets.

[RangerBob]

Well, I tried the new loads this afternoon.

Success! Well, sort of.

They all went bang . . . no hang fires.

The patching worked as it's supposed to. There was no leading and I found strips of paper 20' in front of the muzzle.

Accuracy was so-so. The bullets all went pretty close to the bull, but groups were too large for my liking. I think I will play with the powder charge and see what happens.

Nazgul,

Can you tell me about your 540gr PP bullets in the .458WM? I would love to hear how you're loading them, powder & charge, and what kind of success you've had.

Thanks,

Bob.

[Ricochet]

Loose,
I have known people who would use that old surpus 4831 in 30-06 by simply scooping a case full from a drum and seating a bullet on top of it. 4831 was originally 20 mm. canon powder. Obviously, if you were to try this I won't be held responsible.I have done that very thing with IMR 7383 in loads where a case full to the mouth was a reasonable charge. Thought since I was measuring the powder volumetrically, and the amount I was measuring was a case full, I'd cut out a step and use the case to measure the volume. Seemed logical. Ruined several cases from tubular powder kernels catching between the bullet base and case mouth, crushing the case mouth. Worse was trying to do this with boattail bullets. The tapered boattail wedged the powder kernels between the bullet and case neck. That locked the bullet and case neck together so the seating die pushed the case neck back into the shoulder, ruining the case. I gave up on that idea pretty quickly. I still have odd numbered batches of .22-250 and .30-06 cases from those experiments. I hate it when my component numbers don't work out evenly.

[felix]

Have to bounce the case on the table to even it out below the boolit seat. ... felix

[Ricochet]

Yeah, the main point is that any amount that ends up filling the case into the neck runs a risk of problems. I've loaded many compressed loads over the years without running into any serious difficulties, but I've always favored Ball powders. The IMR powders are more prone to jam things up. So are boattails. A compression die like the blackpowder shooters use could be used to get the powder down to the bottom of the case neck before seating the bullet if you just had to, I suppose. I've decided it's usually better just not to stuff 'em quite so full. I don't have anything to shoot that really requires getting every last kernel of powder in there to do the job.

[Nazgul]

Ranger Bob, I have fired a couple of hundred from a Win M70 using IMR 4895 in the 55gr range. It is an RCBS mold.

I never have chronoed them or tested them for accuracy, sorry. They shoot to the left of the 500 gr solids I usually load.

I know I should take the time to sort this out but they are my "plinker" type bullets. They do kick with some authority, they ring the metal plates I have set up, 3/4" thick about14" x 14", hard. I think they would be a good hunting bullet if cast soft.

I have made them of WW, even hardened some. They are patched with computer paper and run throught a Lee sizing die after lubing (.459). It helps if the die is heated slightly with a heat gun. It tightens the patch nicely.