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PAT303
04-10-2007, 05:23 AM
I've just returned from our Australian national titles and the guys that beat me in Pb were using very tight loads,as far as they needed to hammer the balls into the muzzles when loading. It goes against everything I've read to load like that but the results speak for themselves.Can anyone shed some light on the subject. Pat

curator
04-10-2007, 11:59 AM
Pat,

Generally speaking the tighter you can load a patched ball without deforming it the more accurate it can be. This is one of the reasons the "false muzzle" was invented. Muzzle loaded target rifles were often loaded with a mallot. Ned Roberts in his book; "The Muzzle loading Cap Lock Rifle" gives his formula for a proper ball diameter and patch thickness. He suggests a ball of land diameter and a patch thickness of two times the depth of the grooves.

To prevent gas leakage around the ball upon firing, the patch material must be sufficiently compressed in the grooves to leave the imprint of the fabric on the ball. Not just where the lands bore against it. The difficulty in this lies with the quality of the loading tools. If the face of the short starter does not exactly match the shape of the ball, it will deform it, and it will not fly true.

Another factor necessitating the use of a loading mallot is the amount of patch lube. Most muzzle loading rifle shooters use way too much lube thinking that it keeps fouling soft and fascilitates loading. While it may do this, greasy patches rarely give top accuracy or ballistic uniformity. The top shooters usually use some kind of "dry" lube that provides just enough lubrication but no more.

Greasy patches allow the ball to begin moving down the bore before full pressure is attained. This creates more fouling, as well as inconsistant and lower velocity.

PAT303
04-10-2007, 07:20 PM
Thanks curator I've been using very wet patches to keep the fouling down and to help the ball down and back out again. I should have ask about this along time ago.When you say a dry lube do you mean it shoudn't wipe off in your fingers when you rub the patch? Pat

Guido4198
04-10-2007, 07:31 PM
When I was working on getting the best groups out of my Hawken...A VERY experienced Muzzleloading competitor advised me that if I didn't need to tap my load in with a special short starter and mallet... my combination was"too loose" .
I got delrin starter from Tip Curtis and ( also at his suggestion...) a .500 round ball mold for my 50 cal. Green Mtn. barrel. With a patch anywhere from .015-.018...it makes a real tight combination...but sure puts'em in there. Granted...NOT real practical for multiple shots in the field...but it's how I shoot matches. Hope this helps....
Cheers,
Don

PAT303
04-10-2007, 08:53 PM
My short starter has a little brass button on it that puts a circle on the ball and does'nt spread the load at all when ramming so that might need to be adressed when tighter loads are tried.All this is helping. Pat

curator
04-11-2007, 12:47 PM
A good "dry" lube is water-soluable machine cutting oil diluted 6 to 1 with water. Soak your patch material in it and wring them out. Place them flat on a cookie sheet until dry. The fabric will retain just enough oil for ballistic uniformity and accuracy. If done correctly, all your patches will have exactly the same amount of lube as well. Patch strips work better than pre-cut patches with this method. In addition, when you cut the patch at the muzzle it is always centered on the ball; another accuracy booster.

A 'proper" short starter should have a "ball set" that has the exact curve of your caliber ball and be just long enough to position the ball just below flush with the muzzle and not any deeper when starting a ball. That way when you trim the patch your knife won't scrape the ball and your patch will be as small as practical. Setting the ball with a thick patch may require the use of a mallot. A heavy rubber mallot works best. Lighter mallots often require more than one hit with more possibility of deforming the projectile. Your short starter end should be at least 6 inches long and also have a perfectly fitting end on it so the ball is always kept perfectly round no matter how hard you may have to rap it. Needless to say, the ramrod end should fit the ball too.

Dale53
04-11-2007, 03:07 PM
curator;
I am NOT the Forum police. However, some proper terminology is in order. The "Short Starter" is the "ball set" that positions the ball just below the muzzle. The next tool is the "long starter" which is six inches or so. After the long starter is used it is easy to push the ball down onto the powder with the ramrod.I only mention this for the newbies who may be watching.

I agree with the OP who suggests that the ball needs to be TIGHT to get the best accuracy for matches.

Hope you will take this in the spirit intended - just trying to be helpful.

Dale53

PAT303
04-11-2007, 05:38 PM
I'm going to chase up some better gear and thicker patches over the next week and type up a range report on how it goe's.My lube has been machine oil as it always shot better but my patches were soaking in it.First thing will be drying them and see for improvement. Thanks for the info Pat

piwo
04-11-2007, 06:28 PM
A good "dry" lube is water-soluable machine cutting oil diluted 6 to 1 with water. .

Can you give me an example of a "water-soluble machine cutting oil"? I've no cutting machine experience and I don't know what we are talking about at all. Where do you find them, any "names" to look for?

Sorry for being so dense, but I don't know the terminology.......

Guido4198
04-11-2007, 08:29 PM
One other thing I should mention here....When I'm shooting competition ( tight) loads....I have to use a 3/8" solid brass "range rod" to seat the load. The ramrod that fits neatly in the thimbles under the barrel isn't stout enough.

Buckshot
04-12-2007, 03:53 AM
Can you give me an example of a "water-soluble machine cutting oil"? I've no cutting machine experience and I don't know what we are talking about at all. Where do you find them, any "names" to look for?

Sorry for being so dense, but I don't know the terminology.......

Check your local directory for machinery sales, machine tools, etc. Or you can go online to MSC, Enco, McMaster-Carr, Travers, J&L and get it.

A common one is Mobil s-122 water soluble oil. A 1 gallon jug is $15.78 at Enco and would make enough for you, your family , and the neighborhood for several years :-).

.................Buckshot

piwo
04-12-2007, 09:22 AM
Check your local directory for machinery sales, machine tools, etc. Or you can go online to MSC, Enco, McMaster-Carr, Travers, J&L and get it.

A common one is Mobil s-122 water soluble oil. A 1 gallon jug is $15.78 at Enco and would make enough for you, your family , and the neighborhood for several years :-).

.................Buckshot
Thanks Buckshot.
I'll poke around locally to see if I can find something along those lines and give it a try. I must profess that I probably use too much patch lube, as I simply melted the bore butter in a tin, dipped the cut patches in, and then let them "set". They soaked up quite a bit of lube and were stiff little wafers when set. If dryer is better, this would certainly be worth a try!

Thanks again

R.M.
04-12-2007, 10:05 AM
If I'm not mistaken, NAPA Auto Parts sells some form of it.

R.M.

eka
04-12-2007, 10:54 AM
RM is right. I get my oil at Napa. They call it cutting oil. Turns white when you mix it with water. I used one part oil to ten parts water and it works great.

Keith

piwo
04-12-2007, 04:39 PM
RM is right. I get my oil at Napa. They call it cutting oil. Turns white when you mix it with water. I used one part oil to ten parts water and it works great.

Keith

And with this oil, you can remove it simply with sufficient water and cleaning patches, right? Would this be a substitute for petroleum products in one of the recipe’s mentioned in beeswax based bullet lube (in addition to its patched ball "dry lube utility)? Mind you this is for a muzzleloader and not cartridge ammo. Would one suspect that the small amount used in a bullet lube would be able to "spoil" black powder in between shots if this was used as a lube on conicals or minie's/

Sorry for th hyjack, and it isn't totally as I intend to try this as the dry lube mentioned at the outset. Just wanna understand it's potential...:drinks:

curator
04-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Another good water soluable oil for patch lube is Balistol. A good method to determine the correct dilution is to start with a solution using a standard shot glass as a measure. Start with 3 shots of water and one of lube. Mark a patch strip with 1/3 and wet it thoroughly, wring it out then lay it flat on a non-absorbant (level) surface. Add one more shot of water to your solution. Mark the next patch strip with 1/4, and follow the same procedure. Add another shot of water and mark the next patch strip 1/5. Repeat the process right up to 1/9.

After they are all dry, take them to the range and fire five shot groups from a bench rest at 50 yards using each marked patch strip. Wipe the barrel after each shot with a slightly damp patch so the barrel condition is the same for each shot. After you have determined the ratio that gives the best group, repeat the experiment to prove your results were not a fluke.

Once you have determined the correct level of lubrication, further refinements in powder charge can result in match-grade accuracy. Five shots in one ragged hole (or at least touching) at fifty yards from a benchrest position should be consistantly possible if you have decent sights and trigger.

mooman76
04-12-2007, 09:38 PM
I read an artical in an old 1995 Handloaders Digest by Ed Harris about loading roundballs without a patch. I've been meaning to try it but haven't got around to it yet. Acording to him it started out(around 1500) by loading a slightly larger roundball like you would a maxie and hammering it in with a mallet. He said it changed later on around the colonial time period because it was easier for someone new and the tolerances were more forgiving since you could adjust by using a different patch. Plus the barrel didn't have to be as clean.

50 Caliber
04-16-2007, 09:43 PM
Thats why I use 495's and 015"s patches in my TC Pennsylvania Hunter. have to darn near stand on the rod to seat the ball.
but after that, WOW! what a difference. with the 490 and 010 it shot 6-8" @ 100yds after the increase to larger ball and thicker patch the groups are now so tight you can cover a 10 shot string with a Pringles can lid!
Yes its a pain to load, but when that target gets far, far away I know Im going to hit it if I do my part.

piwo
04-16-2007, 11:14 PM
I just ordered two 4 0Z bottles of water soluable oil from Cline Glass. I guess glass cutters use this stuff too...

It was $2.79 a a bottle, so i shouldn't get too scalped if it doesn't work as anticipated...

Bullshop
04-17-2007, 01:32 AM
This is perty new to me. Done it before but never realy tried to see how good I could get it. Recently got a TC 54 Hawkin with a realy tight choked bore. Was having lots of trouble seating anything down. Thought I would try some paper to maby smooth things up a bit. Went to using the chase patch and its smooting up good after 50/60 shots. Using cotton fiber resume paper cut to 1 1/2" X 1/2" strips. With a 533" ball and three strips its doing perty good(for me). To patch I just lay two strips on the muzzle in an X then a third making a kinda star. Put the ball in the middle and start it down. This seats fairly easy but is shooting better than anything else I have tried. Seamed easier to regulate the thickness of the patch this way than trying to find cloth of just the right thickness. This type of patching was done by old timey target shooters with slugg guns. So am I all alone in this or is anyone else using the chase patch.
BIC/BS

piwo
04-17-2007, 09:54 AM
This is perty new to me. Done it before but never realy tried to see how good I could get it. Recently got a TC 54 Hawkin with a realy tight choked bore. Was having lots of trouble seating anything down. Thought I would try some paper to maby smooth things up a bit. Went to using the chase patch and its smooting up good after 50/60 shots. Using cotton fiber resume paper cut to 1 1/2" X 1/2" strips. With a 533" ball and three strips its doing perty good(for me). To patch I just lay two strips on the muzzle in an X then a third making a kinda star. Put the ball in the middle and start it down. This seats fairly easy but is shooting better than anything else I have tried. Seamed easier to regulate the thickness of the patch this way than trying to find cloth of just the right thickness. This type of patching was done by old timey target shooters with slugg guns. So am I all alone in this or is anyone else using the chase patch.
BIC/BS

With my roundballs in my flint, I actually do the same thing... I've used cigarette paper, as well as cut up pieces of "silk tie's" that were being thrown out to add thickness to the desired dimension. When using calipers to measure the material I had to remember to crush the fabric in the jaws and not use the calipers like one normally would since what I'm trying to measure is the "crush dimension" of the fabric, not what it measures nominally. I have been doing this for about 6 years and it tightened things up a bit in my flint. I shoot through a chrony at the range and it adds a few FPS as well.

d.thomson
04-23-2007, 12:48 PM
Use balistol It first was made by the Germans before the first WW I use a fout parts water to one part balistol let sock over night , take out spread on a metal, melamine board to dry for about eight hours. This works great for me