WC820 in the 44 MAG

[nighthunter]

Finally got my hands of some WC820 from patsreloading. I'm using 18.5 grains with a 300 grain cast flat nose with gas check. Accuracy is outstanding. About 1 1/2 inch at 25 yards from a rest with a red dot sight. There doesn't seem to be any pressure signs and cases come out quite easily. Does anyone have an idea of how much heavier I might be able to go with the powder charge? It's in a Ruger Super Blackhawk with 7 1/2 inch barrel.
Nighthunter

[Leftoverdj]

I'd leave her right there. AA shows 19.0 grains as top for 300 grain Sierra with AA 9 and my lot of WC 820 is clearly AA 9. You might be able to go up a grain, but there ain't enough advantage to take the chance.

[TCLouis]

I have OLD WC820 which checked out in all cartridges to be H110 like rather than the faster AA#9 like lots of today. It may even be a tad slower than H110.

I could go above 18.5 grains with the Lee 310 GC (first loading I tried), but the maximum accuracy was at 18.5. The accuracy continued to get worse at each increase above the 18.5 (about 1150 fps as I remember the numbers).

This loading was as accurate at 50 yards as my best ever previous loads were at 25!

[mike in co]

bad comparison...jacketed bullet vs a cast boolit.

more depends on how your lot of 820 compares to a standard like aa9. my lot is sloooower... i need an extra two grains of my 820 to match aa9 velocities as shown in aa for cast. i'd go up in half grain steps watching for pressure signs, leading and loss of accuracy.

[Willbird]

Actually Mike I have never had problems switching data between cast and jacketed bullets, I have not shot 300's in 44 magnum or 45 colt


Bill

[Shuz]

I trust you are aware that WC 820 has various burning rates depending on mfr's lots. I have a real slow lot, and as a result I load more than 18.5g with a 310g boolit. Do you know what the velocity of your load is? If you do, and you'd like it to be higher, work up slowly, keeping watch on accuracy and pressure until you reach the point where an increase in powder does not give a significant increase in velocity. Naturally, watch for signs of excessive pressure as you work up. Be safe! I've often found my best loads are less than maximum.

[lar45]

Do you have a chronograph? If you could post your velocity, I could see how it compares with quickload. what's your lot #?
Bullet length and cartridge length also.

I have a pretty fair estimation of my lot of WC820 in quickload and it works great for 44 mag, 45 colt, and 454. In the 454 it takes about 2 gns less WC820 to get the same velocities as with 296. The WC820 seems to be bulkier so you can't get more powder in the case when compared to 296.

with a .84" bullet and COAL of 1.61"
I'm showing 100% load density at 19.25gns
1350fps @ 32ksi

18.5gns 96% 1290fps @ 28ksi

This is only an estimate that works for my powder in my guns.

The super black hawk is a very strong gun. I've shot 330's to 1550fps from one. Maybe not the smartest thing to do?

post more details and see if you can get an actual velocity.

[Junior1942]

Do you have a chronograph? If you could post your velocity, I could see how it compares with quickload. what's your lot #?
Bullet length and cartridge length also.
lar45, in this article http://www.castbullet.com/reload/wc820.htm you'll find some velocity readings with WC820 (n) in 44 mag pistol, 357 mag rifle, and in 30-30 rifle. I'd be interested in what your Quickload program has to say about the pressures of these loads. In paticular, the max load listed for 44 mag at 19.7 grs and 1296 fps was too much recoil for me. I suspect I could have pushed it to ~1500 fps with acceptable pressures but intolerable recoil, at least for me.

[nighthunter]

Gonna try to post a pic of my range session yesterday ....
Lar ... bullet length is .810 COL is 1.640.
again ... accuracy is excellent .. target is from a stamp I had made years ago. Center dot is 1 inch and outer ring is 2 inches. Can make up a bunch of targets in a hurry.

[nighthunter]

I could have done what the writers in the gun rags do and laid my pistol over the shot out of the group and called it a 5 shot group. I always wonder about some of that stuff. If a revolver has a 6 shot cylinder why do they shoot 5 shot groups?

[lar45]

Gonna try to post a pic of my range session yesterday ....
Lar ... bullet length is .810 COL is 1.640.

with those adjustments
Quickload is saying
1240fps @ 23.3ksi
That's if your lot burns the same as mine.
FWIW

[nighthunter]

Thanks Lar ... I'd rather have accuracy over a little more velocity but I do intend to play with it a little and see develops. I think thats why we play this game isn't it?

[Shuz]

Nighthunter--I'll offer a few reasons why some guys (like me most of the time) only load five in a 6 shot revolver. Many of us were/are old IHMSA or NRA pistol silhouette shooters and you can only load five during a match. Others do it from the old Colt days when it wasn't safe to carry six because of no transfer bar in case the gun was dropped on it's hammer. Still another reason could be a hard recoiling gun like a 26 ounce 329PD will cause heavy boolits to jump crimp and thus tie up the cylinder. And, the last reason I can think of could be a given revolver may have one cylinder throat that throws a shot out of a group constantly, so that one is marked and never loaded. Hope this helps.

[Bass Ackward]

Nighthunter--I'll offer a few reasons why some guys (like me most of the time) only load five in a 6 shot revolver. Many of us were/are old IHMSA or NRA pistol silhouette shooters and you can only load five during a match. Others do it from the old Colt days when it wasn't safe to carry six because of no transfer bar in case the gun was dropped on it's hammer. Still another reason could be a hard recoiling gun like a 26 ounce 329PD will cause heavy boolits to jump crimp and thus tie up the cylinder. And, the last reason I can think of could be a given revolver may have one cylinder throat that throws a shot out of a group constantly, so that one is marked and never loaded. Hope this helps.


One more reason that I do. It makes a box of 50 come out even during load development. That's one extra load to try over shooting six and two cleaners. If I am finished with load development, then I probably am shooting a lot less target and it falls how it does.

[mike in co]

Actually Mike I have never had problems switching data between cast and jacketed bullets, I have not shot 300's in 44 magnum or 45 colt


Bill
i did not say you could not switch data, i did say it was a bad comparison.
not likely to get in trouble using condom loads for cast boolits,but since he was asking for a limit, the use of jacketed data would probably incorrect for him.

[lar45]

Hi Junior, I had this done a few days ago, but had problems posting it.

lar45, in this article http://www.castbullet.com/reload/wc820.htm you'll find some velocity readings with WC820 (n) in 44 mag pistol, 357 mag rifle, and in 30-30 rifle. I'd be interested in what your Quickload program has to say about the pressures of these loads. In paticular, the max load listed for 44 mag at 19.7 grs and 1296 fps was too much recoil for me. I suspect I could have pushed it to ~1500 fps with acceptable pressures but intolerable recoil, at least for me.

Hi Junior, my WC820 lot # is BAJ 47320. So it should be the same as yours?

Ruger SBH 44 mag pistol, 7 1/2" barrel w/factory iron sights @ 25 yards
Lee TL430-240-SWC @ 247.0 grs
.82cc/11.8 grs = 675 fps 717fps @ 4.8ksi
.95cc/13.7 grs = 810 fps 832fps @ 6.5ksi
1.02cc/14.7 grs = 961 fps 896fps @ 7.5ksi
1.09cc/15.7 grs = 1095 fps 960fps @ 8.7ksi
1.18cc/17.4 grs = 1163 fps & best overall accuracy 1075fps @ 11.2ksi
1.26cc/18.4 grs = 1226 fps 1144fps @ 13ksi
1.36cc/19.7 grs = 1296 fps & too much recoil for me 1235fps @ 15.6ksi



Rossi M92 357 mag rifle, 20" barrel w/peep sights @ 25 yards
Laser-Cast 158 gr SWC @ 155.1 gr
Lee TL358-158-SWC @ 155.8 grs
.82cc/11.8 grs = 1567 fps 1321fps @ 10.9ksi
.88cc/12.8 grs = 1623 fps 1438fps @ 13.6ksi
WC820 burns faster than the prediction in the 357 mag case. It seems to hold pretty close for the larger pistol cases though.

Winchester M94 30-30 rifle, 20" barrel w/peep sights @ 50 yards
Lee C309-170-F
1.0cc/14.4 grs AV = 1612 fps 1550fps @ 17.4ksi

Lee C309-113-F
7cc Lee dipper for ~10.1 gr AV = 1480 fps 1124fps @ 5ksi

I just used the bullet lengths and over all length that came up with quickload.
FWIW
Glenn.

[fecmech]

Glen--did quickload give you the pressure figures for the 18.4 and 19.7 grain loads? With those loadings being close to max should'nt the pressures be in the high 30k psi? I load AA9 at 21.3 with the Lyman Keith 253 for about 1300fps out of my SBH 7 1/2" and that is supposed to be close to max. Just curious. Nick

[lar45]

Quickload doesn't have a powder profile for AA#9 or for WC820
I took the Win 296 powder profile and adjusted it to give a pretty good prediction for velocity of what I was doing in my 454 with 340gn bullets. The same profile seems to give a pretty good prediction of velocity for my 44mag and 45 colt loads also.
It does not hold when I go down to the 357 mag. It gives lower velocity and pressure predictions.
I'm only guessing that if the 454 and 44 mag velocities are right then the pressure must be close also.
In the short straight wall pistol cases, bullet length and loaded length make a big difference.
I also add about 1-1.5" to the barrel length for a revolver to account for the cylinder length. It seems to hold pretty well.
example
44 mag 300gn sierra 7.5"bbl, plugged in 9"
19gn WC820(my profile, nothing official)
bullet length.888"
loaded length 1.61" 1396fps @ 39ksi
loaded length 1.62" 1385fps @ 37.6ksi
loaded length 1.63" 1374fps @ 36.2ksi
loaded length 1.64" 1364fps @ 34.9ksi
loaded length 1.65" 1354fps @ 33.7ksi

Now change the shot stat initiation pressure from 2175psi for jacketed to 1160psi for lead

loaded length 1.61" 1384fps @ 36.9ksi
loaded length 1.62" 1372fps @ 35.4ksi
loaded length 1.63" 1360fps @ 34ksi
loaded length 1.64" 1350fps @ 32.7ksi
loaded length 1.65" 1340fps @ 31.5ksi

It's a tool, but when fed good information, seems to be pretty good

When I chrono a load, then I can adjust the barrel length to match the actual velocity, then everything from there seems to be pretty close.

[lar45]

Glen--did quickload give you the pressure figures for the 18.4 and 19.7 grain loads? With those loadings being close to max should'nt the pressures be in the high 30k psi? I load AA9 at 21.3 with the Lyman Keith 253 for about 1300fps out of my SBH 7 1/2" and that is supposed to be close to max. Just curious. Nick

post your bullet length and loaded length and I'll see how close it gets.

Just on a side note.
My 30-06 loads with 165 corelokt and 60gns RL22, quickload predicts it within 3fps of actual chronoed data which is a couple hundred fps slower than the Nosler loading manual shows.

Some things it doesn't do well with at all though.
You can check Dan's site, he has quickload predictions from his 06 cast loads with accu trace pressure readings.

[Leftoverdj]

Mike, I'm a cut and try kinda guy. In this range, when I have data for jacketed and am shooting lead, my experience tells me that I can usually up the charge a bit, but I am not going to get much more than 100 fps over jacketed. With a published max of 19 grains for jacketed, I'd be willing to go to 20 grains for lead of the same weight if accuracy was a bit ragged.

With groups like the one we were shown, I wouldn't do nothing. The most to be gained is about 100 fps, and groups like that one have a nasty habit of doubling or tripling with a slight pressure increase. I pretty much buy into the theory that you generally get your best accuracy with cast at pressures just under the yield point of your alloy. Certainly, I have often seen quite good grouping vanish at rather small pressure increases.

[fecmech]

[QUOTE=lar45]post your bullet length and loaded length and I'll see how close it gets.

Lar--My Lyman 429421 bullet length is .780 and cartridge oal is 1.705, bullet weight is 253grs. AA data for a 240 gr SWC lists 21.7 grs and 39,700psi.
I'm running 21.3 and getting 1323 fps. Nick

[mike in co]

Glen--did quickload give you the pressure figures for the 18.4 and 19.7 grain loads? With those loadings being close to max should'nt the pressures be in the high 30k psi? I load AA9 at 21.3 with the Lyman Keith 253 for about 1300fps out of my SBH 7 1/2" and that is supposed to be close to max. Just curious. Nick

NICK,
MY LOTS OF AA9 PRODUCE 1330/1340 FPS AT 19.5/19.3 WITH THE 255 BULLET WITHOUT AND WITH GAS CHECKS FROM MY 7.5 SRH. THEY PRINT AROUND 3/4" AT 25 YDS. NO GC IS 3/1 WW/LINO, THE GC IS WW BOTH ARE WATER QUENCHED.( IT TOOK IN THE 21 RG RANGE WITH WC820). NO STICKING BRASS IN EITHER LOAD.

[fecmech]

Mike--I to am using a 3:1 ww/lino mix and good accuracy with the AA9. The #9 that I have is 9C data powder from some years ago. I "Beagle" my mould and size at .433. Last time out at 50yds had one 12 shot group of 2 3/4" and a second one with 11 in 2" and the 12th took it to 3 1/2". BTW 18 grs of Blue Dot is just as accurate in my gun and runs 1390fps, the Blue Dot has got to be pretty warm but it does'nt show any pressure. Nick

[lar45]

[QUOTE=lar45]post your bullet length and loaded length and I'll see how close it gets.

Lar--My Lyman 429421 bullet length is .780 and cartridge oal is 1.705, bullet weight is 253grs. AA data for a 240 gr SWC lists 21.7 grs and 39,700psi.
I'm running 21.3 and getting 1323 fps. Nick

Okay, I plugged all this into quickload with my WC820 guestimate and got
1381fps @ 23ksi I used a 9" barrel, 60fps is pretty close.
When I adjusted the barrel length back to 7.73", I got 1323fps. This is what I've done with my guns and then used that barrel length.
Now with this lets try higher and lower
16gns 956fps @ 10.4ksi
18gns 1091fps @ 14.1ksi
20gns 1231fps @ 19ksi
21.3gns 1323fps @ 23ksi
22gns 1373fps @ 25.5ksi
24gns 1518fps @ 33.7ksi

Do you have chronoed data for other powder charges with the same bullet/ gun? How close is it to this?

[fecmech]

Lar--Sorry, I don't have any more chrono data for that powder and bullet. My load development methods can be quick and dirty at times. As in this case if I'm looking for a max magnum load I start close to the published top and shoot for accuracy. If it stays under 3"@50yds and speed is in the ballpark that's the end of it. Prior to this I had been using 296 shooting metallic silhouettes and this load was as good and fast as the 296 so I switched cause it was about half the price. Recently did the same thing with Blue Dot, it's about 70fps faster and a little more accurate. I will probably pick up some 820 when I go thru St Louis later this summer and give it a try. Thanks for running the numbers. Nick

[Junior1942]

Here's some data from today's shooting:

Pistol = Ruger SBH 44 mag
Bullet = Lee C430-310-RF cast in pure lead. Average weight w/GC & 2 layers of LLA lube = 314.2 grs.
Powder = 17.0 grs WC820 (n)

AV = 1225 fps; ES = 15; SD = 7

Group = 3 shots = 2" @ 25 yards.

Barrel leading = zilch.

With a Taylor Knock Out value of 23.57 this load ought to be a dandy close range hog load. However, it kills on both ends. . . .

[454PB]

I found that my lot of WC820 can be used with Alliant 2400 data, and all my testing and chronographing bear that out. I bought four 8 pound containers, and they all are the same lot number.

[Junior1942]

Here's a photo of a loaded 44 round and two of the Lee C430-310-RF bullets. Note that the bullet's meplat, ~5/16" in diameter, is big enough for the bullet to stand on its nose.

http://www.castbullet.com/reload/photos/lee31002.jpg

[Junior1942]

Guys, I have finished the article on the Lee C430-310-RF bullet with WC820 (n) in my 44 mag Ruger SBH. See http://www.castbullet.com/reload/lee310.htm

I didn't post the charge in the article, but for y'all's info it was 17 grs of WC820 (n).

[TCLouis]

With my older lot of 820, 18.5 gr. 820, 9.5" barrel and I get 1225 fps or so which should be pretty close to the difference in "rate" being touted for old and new versions ofWC820.