250+ grain in 45acp

[newton]

Ok, so I have a question about my BH convertible. I am going to be loading up some trials for the acp cylinder soon. I had some decent luck with the 255 in my colt cases with right around 6 grains of Unique. Very light load. So is there some reason I am not seeing that I cannot put the same load into the acp cases?

The reason I ask is first off I know the acp cases are rated at a higher pressure than the colt. 20,000 versus 14,000 give or take. So I would think it would be fine. But then I pull out some load data and of course I cannot find any for the 255 grain boolits I want, but for 230 grain cast lead the max charge is listed as 5.5 or so grains of Unique.

I know that as you go up in boolit weight you generally drop in powder charge, so that would mean that 6 grains of Unique would seemingly be way above what the "trend" is.

So what gives? Is there something I am not considering here? It the same gun, just different cylinders. Same boolit, same powder, just different case. But the acp case is rated for higher pressures. Would the same powder, primer, and boolit produce a different amount of pressure in another case with it being of the same diameter? The only thing I can see different is the amount of air space, but usually more airspace lends itself to more pressure correct?

Thanks for the help.

[Larry Gibson]

SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt at 14,000 psi is in deference to the older revolvers made for black powder. The 45 ACP was designed when much better steels were in use and smokeless powder was used. Thus it's MAP is 20,000 psi. You will be fine with 6 gr Unique under the 250 gr cast bullet for use in your Ruger. However, instead of just jumping to a load why don't you "work up" the load by starting at 5 gr and then 5.5 and the 5.8 and then 6 and see how they group?

Larry Gibson

[dvnv]

Case volume is less with the 45 acp, yes? That ought to change pressure some.

[newton]

SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt at 14,000 psi is in deference to the older revolvers made for black powder. The 45 ACP was designed when much better steels were in use and smokeless powder was used. Thus it's MAP is 20,000 psi. You will be fine with 6 gr Unique under the 250 gr cast bullet for use in your Ruger. However, instead of just jumping to a load why don't you "work up" the load by starting at 5 gr and then 5.5 and the 5.8 and then 6 and see how they group?

Larry Gibson

I would not mind doing that. And I probably will play around some. I just have tried the 6 grain load with the same boolit out of the same gun, just with the different cylinder, and found it to be a very nice load.

I know that the case is shorter, and the throats on the cylinder are going to be longer, but I was thinking I might get close to the same results with the acp as I got with the colt.

[9.3X62AL]

The only thing I can see different is the amount of air space, but usually more airspace lends itself to more pressure correct?

Exactly the opposite effect, if all other factors remain constant.

[newton]

Case volume is less with the 45 acp, yes? That ought to change pressure some.

Yea, but I would think it would help with the pressure rather than make it worse. Maybe my thinking is backwards on this. In other words, with the same amount of powder and the same weight of boolit, a case that has more "room" in it will have a greater amount of pressure than one with less room in it. I thought this is one of the theory's behind fillers and such.

That is my thoughts, not fact. I am hoping that I could get someone to lend me some understanding about the known facts of this theory of mine.

[newton]

Exactly the opposite effect, if all other factors remain constant.

Ah, well then that answers my question.

[newton]

So maybe I will start at 5, and work my way up after all. haha.

[newton]

Ok, so now things are starting to click in my head the right way maybe. The reason why seating a boolit deeper increases pressure is because you are reducing the amount of 'air space'. So along with that seating the boolit further out can reduce pressure a little bit.

It all makes more sense now. So even if its the same charge, same weight boolit, the fact that there is less room means that while it might be around 8,000psi in the colt, the acp might see a whole lot more.

I wonder if there is a conversion factor based upon the percentage of airspace removed? For instance if I was just referring to one cartridge and I wanted to know how much pressure could be increased, or decreased, by the position of the boolit inside of it.

[9.3X62AL]

Awright, sir!

I'm sure there are formulae "out there" somewhere that can approximate and predict the general behavior of powder amounts in given airspace situations. The Powley Computer and the computer pressure modeling software (e.g., Quicload et al) can do a fair job at these estimations, but these don't/can't factor in your firearm's variables--so you're back to load work-ups, even with the whiz-bang formulae.

You have one advantage going for you--the Ruger Blackhawk is a robust revolver design, whether using the 45 Colt cylinder or the 45 ACP "wheel". You have a built-in margin of error, in other words. THAT DOES NOT EQUATE TO LICENSE TO GO NUTS WITH PRESSURES--it means that you'll remain safe if you inadvertantly venture into over-spec pressures.

[newton]

I never have in the past 'worked up to' high pressures. I always try to stay well below. However, I have always only worked with rifles. But it is nice to have the BH with its strengthened frame design.

I have gotten to high pressures even with below max loads. I always have understood this to be first seen in flattened primers. Is this the same with pistols and revolvers? Or is there other things to look for?

[fecmech]

One other thing to consider is what 250 gr bullet you will use. If it is a SWC all of the bullet up to the front edge of the shoulder will have to be in the .45 acp case or it won't chamber in the acp cylinder. At least that is the way my Lipsey's .45 convertible is chambered. That might run pressures up pretty quick!

[littlejack]

The Lee 255 grain RF would be a better choice if you wanted to shoot a heavier slug in the 45 acp.
If you look at the load data in the Speer #12 manual on their 260 grain hp, (average .680 long) loaded to a COL of 1.200, and then load Lee 255 RF (average .600 long) to the same COL, there is approximately .080 more case capacity with the Lee boolit.
You will have no problems with pressure if you stay with the 1.200 COL in the acp case.
I have worked up a good load for my Taurus PT1911 and this boolit combination. You should have nary a problem with yourf BH convertable.

Jack

[newton]

Actually the lee 255 is what I am shooting. I just titled it "250+" because most load data is for 240 grain and under. I do not have that many load books yet so I am just going off what I know and have available.

Its what was shooting good from my colt cylinder at that given charge. I'll play around with OAL and see what I can get away with.

[scattershot]

I ust shot some 250 lswc bullets loaded over 6.5 Unique in .45 ACP cases from a Cimmaron convertible. No pressure signs, but I'm thinking of backing off to 6.0 grains. That load will SHOOT, though. Any thoughts?


Forgot to mention, OAL was 1.19"

[dmize]

Pretty simple but possibly stupid question. IF you already have the LC cylinder why are you trying to push the ACP?

[newton]

Pretty simple but possibly stupid question. IF you already have the LC cylinder why are you trying to push the ACP?

Fair enough question. I am not trying to push it actually. My thoughts were that it would be a whole lot lighter load. When I originally asked the question I was thinking backwards on how the load reacts. The load I was looking at is a light load in the LC. So I am really not looking to push it at all. I want a light plinking load. What I would like to do is duplicate the light load I shot in the LC which is around 600 fps.

I'm going to hopefully shoot some later today. I am going to put in 5 grains to see if that gets me where I want. Maybe it will have to take less. I wonder if a 4.5 load would come closer to the light load I'm looking for?

[scattershot]

For me, it was an experiment. I have gotten heavy bullets to feed in one of my ACPs, but these won't. Also, I have a wheelbarrow full of ACP brass, not so much Colt.

[newton]

For me, it was an experiment. I have gotten heavy bullets to feed in one of my ACPs, but these won't. Also, I have a wheelbarrow full of ACP brass, not so much Colt.

This is another consideration for me too. I found a place I can get once fired for a whole lot cheaper than the colt.

[Char-Gar]

What you want to do can be done, but there are some considerations to doing so;

1. You will have to taper crimp the bullet on a cylinderical part of the bullet, as a roll crimp in the groove won't allow the case to headspace on the case mouth.

2. In a Smith and Wesson DA sixgun you can crimp in the groove because the clip or an AR case will provide headspace.

3. In the Ruger SA, you will have to seat the bullet way deep in the case, reducing to a considerable degree the powder capacity, with will increase pressure considerable with the same powder charge. So the powder charge must be reduced.

4. The Ruger SA cylinder in 45 ACP is a little fussy about what size bullet it will allow into the throat and any full diameter portion of the bullet sticking out of the case will have to enter the throat. They don't have a tapered throat, so sizing diameter will be determined, by what will enter the throat with ease. Even if the throats are .4525, it may take a .451 bullet to drop into the cylinder with ease.

Bottom line...It isn't worth the effort for what little can be gained. There are good 200 - 230 grain bullets out there that can be loaded in the ACP case that will function and shoot very well in your Ruger SA sixguns.

The Ruger SA shoot very well with the ACP cylinder and round, BUT you are not going to get 45 Colt performance from the ACP case, so accept that fact and have fun.

[newton]

I loaded up a dummy round last night to get the boolit seating and crimp set. It took a little, but I think I got it down. The throats are tight so the boolit has to set in the case a ways. I am not worried about case fill because I am looking for a light load anyways. The boolit is crimped just above the crimp groove. You can see where the sizing die reduces the boolit and I am crimping the case mouth right on the edge of that.

I am assuming that its a taper crimp. Not sure why it would be a roll crimp. I tested it and it fit fine in the cylinder and actually took just a wee bit of pressure to get all the way in because the front of the boolit was not wanting to go into the throats. I am assuming that the case is still being headspaced from the case mouth. I will check the dimensions with a mic to see if the crimp is too much. I knew that they were spaced that way, but did not think about the crimp affecting it.

To me its worth the effort. I like the idea of being able to have one mold for both. I have no use for stout acp loads, they will just be used for me to get used to the pistol and for fun. If I want something hot I'll just shoot the colt cylinder. I imagine in the long run I will get another mold, but for now this gets me going and having some fun.

I do think I will start low on the charge though. Right at 5 if not a tad lower. But I think 5 will do me good from what I am reading.

[Char-Gar]

Handloading is no place for assumptions. If your die is not marked TC or Taper Crimp, it is a roll crimp die. You want to KNOW if the case is still headspacing on the case mouth and not assume so.

You are free to do as you wish, but assumptions in handloading can get gun's destroyed and people badly injured. When you fire a round, you are turning loose many thousands of pounds of pressure contained only in a little brass bottle in your hands and close to your face and head.

I am a little troubled, that you are going into areas of handloading not covered or tested in reliable sources, with so little understanding of what you are doing and throwing is some assumptions for good measure.

You only reason for doing this is "you like the idea of being able to have one mold for both". That does not mean it is a good idea. It certainly is not a good idea for folks who really don't know what they are doing.

Again...I am not trying to be harsh..just trying to get your attention. That's it...I am done.

[newton]

Attention has been gotten. No worries here. A guy has to start somewhere though. I am not just halfheartedly banging out some ammo though. If I have never heard of anyone using a heavy boolit, and had multiple people telling me its not a wise thing to do, rest assured I would not be doing it.

I try to do my best with finding out as much info as I can before proceeding. But if I stand around and wait for information, much less experience, to hit me in the head before I do anything then I am going to grow to be an old man with nothing but thoughts running through my mind. Eventually a guy has to put his hand to the grindstone even if there is a chance he will get a finger cut off.

I really appreciate all the help and advise I get here. In fact, its advice of this nature I like even better. I would rather have 'potential' harsh words spoken to me than a slap on the back and a 'go gettum' approach.

Handloading was born from assumptions. Educated, but still assumption till tests are done. If I found just one, just one person who said they tried the 255 grain boolit and it ruined their gun then it would be enough for me to not do it. Is it ideal? Probably not for the cartridge. But then that is all subjective.

I have never pretended to be an expert at this. I am new and learning each and every day. I thought that I had the case capacity and pressure thing the right way, turns out I did not. I am grateful for the willingness of people to let me know that I had my thinking cap on backward for a moment.

Now the taper versus roll crimp issue is what I would call a pretty good assumption. If a specific cartridge is made to work a specific way then why would a company make a die set that did not meet the specifications for that cartridge if it were unsafe? To me that would be kind of like a ammo manufacture loading +P cartridges and then not indicating that they had done so.

The instructions that come with the die set are given for putting a crimp on the cartridge. If it were a crimp that would in some way, shape, or form cause an unsafe round then would there not be some type of warning? If not just for their sake of limiting liability, kind of like the warning on guns that tells you to read the instructions.

But that's me. Again, thank you for the heads up and it is something that I will definitely check on. One man's good idea is anther's nightmare and vise versa.

[newton]

Just called Lee. The seating die does in fact perform a taper crimp to the bullet. Hope this helps someone else out that comes along wondering if it does or not. I bought their 3 die set as people that had them all stated the 'factory crimp' die is nice for some instances, but not so much needed for the 45acp set.

So now I have a pretty good idea that I have the correct crimp. I have found some more info on heavy boolits that generally right around this weight about 5 grains of Unique is the load most people go with. Some have stated they go up to the 6 grain mark, but recoil is stout(of course a lot of this is done with 1911's) and there is not any accuracy gain from doing so.

I am going to start with around 4.6 grains. If it turns out to be the little plinking load I am looking for then I'll stop there. Not so much looking for accuracy or knock down power. Just something to get me used to the revolver without constantly reloading my colt cases over and over, and light recoil to boot.

[newton]

Well I just shot off 12 rounds. I will do more testing but I am happy and suprised/interested at the same time. Before actually loading I did a few more dummy rounds to make sure everything was good. I set the die to do the lightest crimp yet still have the pressure to hold the boolit still while pushing down on it with my hand.

You really cannot see the crimp at all. I'll measure next time I load some rounds to get a OAL. The rounds chamber fine, but I think I will set them a tad deeper. They do catch a little against the throats.

The test I did was between small and large primer cases. I'll post pictures tomorrow, but there was a world of difference between the two with the small primer being the clear winner. I did not change anything durring loading. The load is ~4.5 unique. I used lee dippers. Accuracy is good enough for what I'm looking for. I really need a chrony to see where I'm at with this, although it seems just right.

[tacklebury]

I use 6.5 gr. Unique with a 200 gr. RNFP in the acp with mine for plinking and targets. Very accurate and just enough energy to cycle the slide if I use it in my Witness Match. I use 9 gr. with a 255 gr. RNFP in the .45 Colt and if I'm shooting 240 jacketed I use 10 gr. Unique with a Sierra 240 gr. sportsmaster. All work well. My only other loads are for a 300 gr. XTP Magnum and 19 to 21 gr. H110 in the .45 Colt.

[newton]

I am willing to bet this would not be a good combo for a 1911. But I could be wrong. I was focusing more on the target than recoil, but it was very mild. I would be curious if it would be enough to function correctly, although you could always put a smaller spring in.

But that is not even close to my intentions. I did notice that there was a whole lot less room for powder than I would have thought. I did not try, and probably won't, but the 6+ grains I was first thinking probably would not fit without some compression. But I did not try.

No pressure signs whatsoever. I had a good rest, but not total rest. I still have a long way to go with getting used to revolver shooting. But this way I am going to be able to do it for a lot less than even the colt rounds. At 4.5 grains I can get 1500 rounds from a pound of powder.

I imagine that in the future I will get a different mold to play with but funds have dried up at the moment and this keeps me shooting for a while.

[newton]

Here is the picture I took. I might get out again and shoot another 6 and 6 tonight. In all fairness, which I did not think about at the time, the first 6 rounds of the large primer were the first ones to be shot out of that cylinder. So another test is in order here. With all the information I can find from people who shoot heavy boolits like this in acp, they should be going right between 650 and 700 fps. I think that would make a nice little rabbit pistol round.

The group on the right is the large primer, the one on the right is small primer. I did not change anything between them. And while grip, tension, etc can change from shot to shot, there is a significant difference between the two.

43989

[35remington]

One group does not make a satisfactory conclusion. Shoot 100 rounds of each type and report back. Try to take human error and wobble out of the equation. If you're not using a scope or a machine rest, conclusions derived from 12 shots are about as statistically invalid as anything can possibly be.

If one primer type made a serious difference in accuracy.....you can bet they'd be already doing it for all 45 ACP ammo everywhere.

[newton]

One group does not make a satisfactory conclusion. Shoot 100 rounds of each type and report back. Try to take human error and wobble out of the equation. If you're not using a scope or a machine rest, conclusions derived from 12 shots are about as statistically invalid as anything can possibly be.

If one primer type made a serious difference in accuracy.....you can bet they'd be already doing it for all 45 ACP ammo everywhere.

Oh I agree. But I am not the first one to come to this conclusion. I am going to say that there is also a big difference between j-bullets and cast. Also, within the cast world there are a lot of different types of alloys. One alloy might not work as good as another.

It might be that its just my alloy that it works good with. I am for sure going to do some testing, but the fact that they shoot great is enough for me to be happy. Because the simple fact is everyone like large primer in the 45acp for some reason and that means I can pick up the once fired small primer cases for penny's on the dollar.

I am using a rest, but not one that takes my human error all the way out. I just found it interesting and wanted to share. I am going to run some more through, but I doubt if I am going to run 100 through of each for right now. I am not out to see if I can shrink my groups or prove one case is capable of having a distinct advantage over another.

I just wanted to let it be known that my boolits I use for my colt rounds work just fine as a plinking round for my acp cylinder and that they work really well in the small primer cases. That is the extent of my sharing for now. I need to get a whole lot more under my belt before I go being a good tester.

[Groo]

Groo here
Just go to your handy older Speer manual and look up the 45acp section..
You will find data for 260gr jackets, this will give you a starting point...

[Good Cheer]

Well, the 45ACP is a rimless Schofield. Perhaps Triple 7 would make a good load.

[scattershot]

Well, the 45ACP is a rimless Schofield. Perhaps Triple 7 would make a good load.

Actually, it isn't. The Schofield has a case length of 1.1 "' while the ACP length is .898. Good point about the .777, though. There may be some useful data to be found in .45 Auto Rim, though.

[Good Cheer]

There is; broke out the faded Lyman's in working up for this one set at the shortest possible with the gas check plug.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/adjustable45-1.jpg

[ole 5 hole group]

They all work - sometimes.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/7Ps/45ACP2.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o19/7Ps/45ACP.jpg

[scattershot]

Holy cow! How are you loading that 265 grain behemoth?

[ole 5 hole group]

I use the cartridge in my 1911. I use VV N350 for the 265 grain Beartooth with the WLP primer with an OAL of 1.220 and taper crimped at 0.469. It feeds well and I’ve never had a problem with the bullet. I use Starline Super cases when I load to +P velocities.

Buffalo Bore advertises their load as a +p running at 950fps and they use Starline +P cases, not the Super cases. I find it to run about 10fps faster in my Baer 1911 and the Handloader magazine a couple months ago had it running 975fps from a 5” Remington 1911 R-1 enhanced.

[x101airborne]

While I applaud anyone thinking "outside the box" a bit, I did this also some time back. I had DISMAL results form the entire project and eventually gave it up. The bases of the boolits were swaged down to a tapered profile from being shoved into the thicker part of the case causing extreme leading. Those that did not swage down caused a bulge in the side of the case and jammed. They were fairly accurate, but when I tried them out on animals, they performed horrifically. They had absolutely NO shock value what so ever. They did penetrate ok, but even a raccoon I encountered had to be shot 6 times in the chest before he gave up the tree. Hogs had to be followed up with a shotgun, wich I detest for obvious reasons. The drop on the round precluded any distance shooting. Now for knocking over steel or bowling pins at known distances, great application. For hunting or self defence, I would consider something else. I cannot stress enough how lousy this worked for me and my needs.

[tek4260]

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0656.jpg

Here is a factory along with a 255 Lee, and a Keith from Lyman and RCBS. The heavies shot extremely well from my Springfield.

I used these Mihec HP's for a deer last season at 70 yards. I have to look up what they way, but I think it is in the 270-280gr range

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0664.jpg

[scattershot]

Anyone carre to share some loads for these heavies?

[makicjf]

Both of my BH 45 acp cylinders have been reamed by the cylindersmith to .4525. Prior to reaming I could not get either a lee 252 swc or a lee 255 rnfp to chamber at reasonable oal. After the fact they do ok. In the BH 45 acp cylinder:
lee 252 swc LA tumbled air cooled sized .452
cci 350/ winchester large pistol primer
6.2 unique
oal of 1.20 (just onto the front band)
taper crimp to .469

Actually shot pretty well out to 25 yards in the BH. I even ran some through my Rock Island officers model 45 acp (until I got worried about battering the little 'Rock") i do not have a chono so no idea what it was running . based on the 260 45 acp load from Speer #12

lee 255 rnfp (actual 262 straight ww LLA tumble lubed air cooled sized .452
cci350/winchester large pistol
6.2 unique
1.20 oal ( rim sits and crimps right at the very edge of the bottom of the crimp groove if memory serves me correctly- took a bit of thumb pressure to chambe in the BH cylinder)
taper crimp to .469

Shot very similiar to the 252 swc load, but made a big thwack when it hit the cardboard. Makes a big spray out of a milk carton of water from 25 yards too. Shot well from the Rock Island 45 (until i got worried about beating the little thing)
extrapolated from speer #12 260 grain 45 acp load. Again, no chrono so i have no idea how fast they were moving. But a 255-260 flat at 650 served the british emprire for 80 years!
I liked the heavy acp loads in the ruger, basicly because they used less powder than my ruger 45 colt loads ( 10 unique under both bullets) I never shot anything but paper and water jugs with them. Recoil was light. I would work up to these, as they are pretty close to the top of the speer chart for this weight in 45 acp. I quit loading them because I kept being tempted to shoot them in the 1911. If I don't make them, I won"t shoot them. Though either one would make a good SD feild carry load for a 45 acp cylinder in the blackhawk.
Jason