Scoping my .45-70 Sharps

[WildmanJack]

Went to the range yesterday and realized that at 100 yards using iron sights I couldn't see a 2 1/2 " florescent red bullseye. It was pretty frustrating trying to hit the target while trying to sight on a tiny red smear, so I'm thinking maybe I need to invest in a period correct scope for my sharps. Now I have to find out if there's a mount for a round barrel Sharps.
Any suggestions???
Jack

[Gunlaker]

Montana Vintage Arms makes an excellent scope for the Sharps rifle. I've got one and I like it a lot.

Chris.

[Mike Brooks]

Google MVA

[Don McDowell]

The MVA scopes are pretty nice.
But before you start laying out that kind of money, you might want to try shooting at a decent target.
Something like the standard NRA 100 yd or 200 yd bullseye available at most reputable dealers,or one of the Schuetzen targets available from SPG.
Those flourescent bullseye's can really mess things up over irons.

[Texantothecore]

Two issues:

1. 2.5" is to small at 100 yards. Try an Nra target or a target whose bullseye is at least 3" minimum diameter.
2. You may be shade blind or color blind and may experience your best shooting with black on white targets. I don't see red or green well and the black target makes a huge difference.

[WildmanJack]

Thanks Don and Teantothecore, I'll give i t a try. I was really surprised how bad the targets looked when I put those red stickers on them.
Guys I have already checked MVA and Leatherwood. Now it's just a question of do I really need one, and if I do, how much I can afford... Gonna try different targets first...
Jack

[Don McDowell]

Don't do the leatherwood unless you do the short scope and get the DZ unertl mounts.. By that time you've got the same money as an MVA Winchester A5 scope.

[Gunlaker]

But before you start laying out that kind of money, you might want to try shooting at a decent target.


That is good advice. To be honest I don't know that I can shoot much better with the scope than I can with a good target and apertures sized to suit it.

At least that holds when shooting in good light. If it's drizzling rain, like it often is here, the scope is a definite advantage.

Chris.

[rbertalotto]

Scopaholic here!

I have a Sharps with a Leatherwood scope and an 1885 Winchester with the Leatherwood short scope

http://images16.fotki.com/v382/photos/2/36012/9730091/DSC_3033-vi.jpg?1335325183

http://images110.fotki.com/v630/photos/2/36012/9654765/DSC_2952-vi.jpg

A few points. With cartridges like the 45-70 and their rainbow trajectory, if you want to shoot much over 300 yards you need the real long tubes. These scopes are long so when the rear is raised up a few inches as you will need to do for much over 300 yds, you are not looking at your barrel. They need to pivot "way out" on the muzzle.

ALL the Leatherwood scope mounts are horrible. They MIGHT work if you are going to set them at one distance and then lock them down. But don't even think you can change distance and that they will be repeatable.
You can read on my web site how I had to machine a whole new rear sight for the 1885 ( www.rvbprecision.com )

These scopes are 3/4" in diameter. They have VERY low light gathering. I took the Sharps deer hunting this past fall and couldn't use the scope at 3:30 in the afternoon if the game were in the shadows.

The optics on all these scopes are reasonable, but they are nothing like modern scopes. Be advised.

I removed the short scope on the 1885 and installed a good quality tang sight and a Lyman globe front sight. On paper targets with a big black bullseye, I can shoot much better groups than I could with the scope. And with 60 year old eyes, no one was more amazed than me!

[Don McDowell]

Actually using the short leatherwood and the DZ unertyl rings on 7.2 inch centers , 1000 yds is quite doable. http://hepman.com/dzarms/UNERTL%20SCOPE%20MOUNTS.htm (can say that cuz I done it)
You can also purchase the whole setup scope , mounts and bases from Buffalo Arms, but I believe going with the MVA setup would be the better route.

[WildmanJack]

I've heard about the poor repeatability on the Leatherwood scope mounts. That was or is a worry, But My biggest worry is having to mount any scope to my barrel. The gun is a 1874 Creedmore Sharpes by Pedersoli. It is a round barrel and although it does have 3/8" dovetail cuts at the muzzle and the rear, it has no other flats to mount the scope. So I don't know if I can even mount one. Leatherwood says they have an "offset" scope mount for a round barrel, but again, their reviews don't give me a lot of confidence. Especially since the guy at Leatherwood said the "offfset" mount was to keep the scope away from the hammer (???)!!!Didn't make much sense to me..
Now to be honest, the only range I have that is over 200 yds. is well over an hour from me, so I know I won't be driving up there very often.
I guess I just need to wait till the IRS send me back my amended returns and see what I can afford...
Jack

[Don McDowell]

With proper bases you only need to drill and tap 2 6x48 holes for each block.
I mounted my DZ/Leatherwood set up on my round barreled C Sharps.
But in all honesty I'ld bet with a good tang sight and front globe with decent aperatures you could shoot very well to 200 yds on a regulation NRA bullseye target.

[WildmanJack]

OK Don, I know you are a very knowledgeable shooter, especially with the Sharps. I guess Maybe I should invest in a good Baldwin or Kelly tang sight with an adjustable iris and a good globe front sight and go for it. To be honest I would rather shoot thru iron sights, just didn't now if my old eyes would focus properly. I'll get a few of those NRA targets next week and see what I can do with the tang sight on the gun. It's an "upgraded" Pedersoli Tang.. Yeah I know it's a *** but it's all I have right now..
Jack

[Don McDowell]

Jack that sight you have isn't the best, but for the short range you're working at it should be workable, especially if you have the "hadley" eyecup so you can get enough light thru it for your eye to work easily. It's at the longer ranges that a sloppy rear sight will jump up and bite you real hard.
Getting a good front aperature that you and your eye both like, and a good sharp bullseye will probably work wonders.

[wyoduster]

I'm not an expert or verteran of Sharps shooting but ........ I did find that getting a good Globe sight made all the difference.. I too had trouble seeing the sight on the bull till I changed, then I put on a tang sight and like magic I'm hitting. I am using the better Pedersoli tang sight with a hadley cup. No complaints yet, but I haven't started BPCR shoots yet.

[NSB]

Bob Jones makes a lens that fits into a Merit aprature and there are models for various tang sights. This little lens costs around twenty-five bucks and the Merit screw in aprature is around sixty or seventy. I got one and with it you can clearly see the front sight to shoot at distance. Bob will tell you which power you need for your eyesight. They do work and work well. It allows "old eyes" to see to shoot open sights again. Look into it. Total setup around a hundred bucks and you'll be able to see to shoot.

[wyoduster]

Bob Jones?? Where do we find him...web site? @ 52 I don't have the eye sight either I once had.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The Merits mentioned are also totally illeagle for NRA BP Target rifle and Silhouette, however Period Correct scopes are, something to keep in mind if one was to try their hand at NRA competition.

A long tube the other fella mentioned is not needed, to shoot Long range. Don is correct on that, The shorter scopes actually have more elevation, thats pretty simple mathmatics.

I shoot a lot, and I mean alot of long range with bpcr scoped rifles, all of mine are 23 inch tube MVA's I own 4 of them the only Long Scope is a 36 inch MVA thats on my Muzzle loading Slug Gun, which is shot to 300 yards. I had special set of real tall blocks that will allow shooting to 1 mile with the Sharps.

Most of my long range shooting is 800-900-1000 yards.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Jack one other thing to mull over, with MVA's new Winchester A5 scope and the unertyl type mounts they offer, I believe the price tag comes out to around 650. If you do the math, by the time you get a quality vernier sight with a matching quality globe there's precious little price difference.... Something to keep in mind if you really think you want a scope.
But when you go down to the local slobber shop , see if they have any 3/4 in. tube 22 scopes and look thru those. You'll get an idea of what the sight picture you'll have.

[WildmanJack]

Hmmm, I put a short Leatherwood scope on my 1873 Winchester as I was having a hard time seeing the target with that as well. But I did fond out that the Leatherwwood "mounts"and I say "Mounts" with distain. are almost completely useless. I got the scope dead on at 100 yds. then I bumped the scope, not real hard just a little bump.... OOPS Took care of that !!!!Couldn't hit a bull in the butt with it now. Back to the range to TRY to sight it back in. So if and when I decide to mount a scope on my Sharps it will have to be a really good mount system or nothing at all.
A really good tang sight and globe front is going to cost darn near what a good MVA scope will cost. So I'm kind of torn right now.. Don't really know what to do..
Jack

[Don McDowell]

Well if you still have the short scope you could get a set of the DZ unertl mounts, but there again you'll almost be to the MVA A5 scope.
Wonder why they haven't put those on the web site yet. They got the ad's running in BPCR news.

[WildmanJack]

Don,
Just called DZ I can get a set of Unertal mounts and bases for under $500.00, so I think that's the way I'll go. Now just have to wait for my Income tax return!!!! They were really helpful, aand I go to Oklahoma city every 2 months for meetings so maybe I can even visit the factory...
Jack

[Don McDowell]

I'ld make arrangements to take your rifle along and have Dan mount the scope while there.

[WildmanJack]

Great idea Don. Since I fly out there in a private jet, there would be no problem with TSA !! NEver thought of that.. By the way.. No I'm not rich, I'm on the board of directors of the National Banjo Hall of Fame and American Banjo Museum.. That's the reason !! Wish I could afford the fuel that plane uses... 9 passenger jet Cessna.. Man what a way to go..
Jack

['74 sharps]

I have the Malcolm long on a 32", and after about 3500 rounds is still without any problems. The mounts are not the best, but are ok, not outstanding. I replaced all the super soft screws on the scope and mounts with cap head screws, making it easier to get and keep all snug; however, not the quality of the MVA system. On my new 34" '74, have a Shaver rear, and it works well. Getting on target does not seem to be an issue with me so far, shooting well, as always, is a work in progress...

[XTR]

Abandon the Leatherwood mounts now.

I ended up going with a modern scope on my 45-70, at least for now. I tried the Leatherwood Malcolm on my Win-Mir 1885. They come with a firm front mount, with a heavy recoiler you need a Pope Ring to let it slide, the LW mount would hold the scope no matter how I tightened, and the rear base rattled loose every 3 shots, the screws are soft flat head and when the sad excuse for a dovetail mount system actually didn't rattle loose it pulled out of the dovetail.

I may eventually mount a period scope. Considering the cost of replacement mounts for a LW and the fact that the MVA can be had with a reticle that has dots for 2 mils of hold over I'm going with an MVA.

[WildmanJack]

XTR,
Good information, thanks for that..... I won't go with a modern scope but I sure won't go with the Leatherwood mounts either... All the best,
jack

[TXGunNut]

Good thread and for me, timely as well. I've recently tried to get away from optical sights and have discovered peeps don't work very well for my aging eyes. Very good and valuable info, choosing the wrong equipment here can be expensive.

[RMulhern]

IMO the elevation/windage adjustments on the MVA scope S U C K!! They need to do a helluva lot more nose picking and *** scratchin to improve their system!!:veryconfu:cry:

I've got one...but never use it!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I dont know Rick, love mine, course us Germans do much better with precision instrments then those Irish. After all we had to invent beer to help you out. The scope had to be a copy of the Malcom to make NRA rules and it does it well. Just no click adjusments.
I have more then a small amount of experience with mine and success.
Learn how to zero them.

PS one little secret, I had gibs installed on mine by Dave Casey of RMC.

KW
The Lunger

A brother Mason, and Garbe was the other brother Mason that told me about them.

KW
The Lunger

[WildmanJack]

Rick,
if your not happy with your MVA, let me know if you wanbt to sell it. I might be able to buy it.. Who know.s..LOL
Jack

[RMulhern]

I dont know Rick, love mine, course us Germans do much better with precision instrments then those Irish. After all we had to invent beer to help you out. The scope had to be a copy of the Malcom to make NRA rules and it does it well. Just no click adjusments.
I have more then a small amount of experience with mine and success.
Learn how to zero them.

PS one little secret, I had gibs installed on mine by Dave Casey of RMC.

KW
The Lunger

A brother Mason, and Garbe was the other brother Mason that told me about them.

KW
The Lunger

KW

"I had gibs installed on mine by Dave Casey of RMC."

Why???:rolleyes:

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Rick,

With the 23 inch scope at the higher elevations the rear ring tends to rock a bit, the gib installed on the right side keeps the ring from rocking, which can effect your elevation a bit. One has to get into the habbit of when pulling the scope back after each shot to center up the ring too, one of the malcom scopes limits, something to be aware of is all. Windage there are no problems with mine never has been. Mine comes back to zero perfect, they are not easy to read with most folks eyes but a magifier helps for some, Me just gota pull the glasses down and can read it fine. Since there no rules on the reticle I had a mil-Dot made for mine with the center dot some do not like it, their loss, as one can put the dot left or right of the X and get 1 MOA of hold off real easy. Subtending mils is easy once learned. Both of my long range scopes have the creedmoor Mounts on them. Jim Did this for me, Larrs does not like to or wont as the scope at the higher elevs is in a bit of a bind but not bad out to 1100 or so yards. as I never use even half of the elevation on the 23's. The 28's you have to have a special block on the front to make elevation for longer ranges 900-1000.

The scopes due to the design have their limits for sure, after all who would want a MKIV on their sharps?
I will admit my 2 long-range and Silhouette scopes have the gibs, my 22 scope and slug gun do not. as they are not an issue at the shorter ranges. My 22 Sharps shoots lights out as Don can testify, no gibs on that scope. In the last 4 major matches I have shot that rifle, I won 2 of them, and placed in the top 3 the other two, Last year at Alliance I shot against and beat a 52 winchester and Martini Olympic both with big *** unertls on them, too win the match, with that MVA Ungibbed scope.
Rick I am a stand up straight in your face kinda guy, badmouthing MVA's adjustments, frankly in this case you dont know Jack Zip.

The shorter scope takes less elevation as the shorter distance between mounts gives more elevation, the guy that said you need a real long scope for long range quite frankly does not have a clue what he is talking about and quite obiviously never has shot long range. I hate it when folks put out that kind of information some poor chap is liable to by a 30 inch scope and find out its good to about 400 yards Max.

I had #4 mount for quite a few years, JC taded me out of it and now resides on his desk.

KW
The Lunger

[RMulhern]

KW

Are you talking about a Gibbs dovetail slot...like on a milling machine??

Take a photo of it for me please!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

No I get a picture to you it just holds the rear scope ring from rocking.

KW

[Don McDowell]

If I'm not mistaken didn't MVA just come out with new style elevation and windage knobs, that are calibrated and marked to give moa adjustment on their regular scope mounts?
I have serious plans of getting one of those MVA winchester scopes this year.

[RMulhern]

For those interested:

http://hepman.com/dzarms/index.html

[Jon K]

If I'm not mistaken didn't MVA just come out with new style elevation and windage knobs, that are calibrated and marked to give moa adjustment on their regular scope mounts?

Yes MVA Target Knobs are easier to make fine adjustments. There are different sizes short or long scope, determined by mount c-c.

The new scopes are nice, but don't have as much travel as the DZ. I am about to order one also.

Jon

[Don McDowell]

I like my DZ mounts, but to get a decent slide ring setup for the Leatherwood is somewhat of a task. I wish we could just buy the scope tube from MVA.

[Jon K]

Don,

I modified the Leatherwood front and put a long bar on the ring.

DZ says he's going to make one with a longer bar on the slider.
A fellow shooter here has the same problem with his Highwall 45-70, slips out under recoil. He's waiting for DZ to send him one.

I think the new MVA is the way to go, cause by the time you get a scope, add the mounts, you have as much or more than the MVA. The MVA also has the option of reticle selection.

Jon

[Don McDowell]

I took a cotter pin that was the right size to go thru the front slot of the DZ mounts and clamped it between the ears on the Leatherwood scope ring. It works fairly well, but it doesn't return to zero quite the same each time.It's close enough for close range stuff, but when the distances get much past 300 yds there's just to much slop in that set up.
Hopefully that new front slide ring DZ is making will be just the ticket. Guess I need to get ahold of him and get my name in the pot for one of them.
Tried Parsons , but they were busy moving locations last year, and we never quite got caught up with each other...

[Dumasron]

Re: scope mounts for Sharps.

Q. Round barrel or hex?

If you have screw holes for barrel sights you might try a universal Pic'y rail and a Red Dot
just to find out if you want to pursue it further.

Alternately, Duc Tape.

[Longwood]

I found the vertical adjuster for the Malcolm scope at Wayfair For less then $40.
Their price for the part is, Way fair, but they got me on the shipping.
Over $8 for a UPS package. They could have sent it USPS for less then $2.
Still cheaper than anyone else.

[Don McDowell]

Re: scope mounts for Sharps.

Q. Round barrel or hex?

If you have screw holes for barrel sights you might try a universal Pic'y rail and a Red Dot
just to find out if you want to pursue it further.

Alternately, Duc Tape.

The scope bases that DZ,BACO and Brownells are concave on the bottom so they work either on flat or round surface.