First round always misses

[DonMountain]

I have a Turkey modified model 88 rifle in 8x57 Mauser, and I am casting a Lee Karibiner gas checked boolit of about 239 grains out of wheel weights and loaded over 30.0 grains of IMR-4895 with a Winchester WLR primer and dacron wad. The problem I am having is that the first shot after not using the rifle for a few days always flies wild. And then the following shots are pretty close together. I have not cleaned the rifle for this to happen. But when I do clean it, the problem is always worse. The first shot in either a clean or dirty barrel is always wild. And this eliminates using this rifle for hunting. Unless I shoot J bullets in it for hunting, which don't have this problem. Is this the nature of cast lead boolits? And should I stick to J bullets for hunting? I am trying to take care of a ground hog problem, but can't hit any of them even at short ranges. [smilie=b:

[Larry Gibson]

What lube?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

The Lube Monster has introduced himself to you. Say "Hi!"

Your problem, called a "cold barrel flyer", can be solved if you use the right lube for the temp range.

Gear

[koehlerrk]

Don, I'd say Geargnasher hit it dead on. To recap, you have cold-bore shots that are wild with cast, but you don't have that problem with jacketed. That rules out loose barrel, loose stock, etc. because otherwise it would have that same issue with j-words.

That said, how big are these groundhogs you're hunting? Holy moley, using an 8mm on them is like swatting a fly with a crowbar! However, you will know when you hit them, that's for sure!

[runfiverun]

a softer lube will help.
or you can try wetting the bore with a patch,that helps sometimes.
i have been working on an all weather lube,and it is not easy to get that first shot in the group.
i have gotten the first shot much closer to the group[from 1-1/2" away to about 1/2"]
but it isn't quite all weather just yet.

[KaliforniaRebel]

You did slug the bore.....right?

Lower power rounds can act a little strange as well. My first batch of 9x18 with just 1.8 gr BE made the target look like it was hit with a shotgun blast. :holysheep

[Chicken Thief]

It happens a lot with j-words also!
The first shot settels the barrel/recoil lug/action in the stock.

[DonMountain]

I have been using LBT Blue lubricant. Its a hard lube and I have to heat it up by plugging in the RCBS lubricator #2, Lyman made heater about a half hour before it runs right. I bought this lube about 15 or 20 years ago, and then stopped shooting for about 10 years when I moved away from the farm. And the ground hogs are about 25 or 30 pounds a piece. They get pretty fat on the soy beans here.

[Larry Gibson]

DonMountain

I have been using LBT Blue lubricant. Its a hard lube and I have to heat it up by plugging in the RCBS lubricator #2, Lyman made heater about a half hour before it runs right. I bought this lube about 15 or 20 years ago..............

There in lays the problem....... As mentioned by runfiverun, you need a softer lube. As you note he is working on an "all weather" (read that temperature) lube but has not got there yet. I suggest you try Javelina or 2500+. They work very well for me in from the mid 30 degrees to very hot temperatures. You won't need to use the heater to lube bullets with the RCBS BTW.

Larry Gibson

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

And the ground hogs are about 25 or 30 pounds a piece. They get pretty fat on the soy beans here.

WOW, that is huge, they are usually around 10 to 12 lbs here in MN.

and Yep a soft lube is in order.
maybe Lith-bee or the NRA 50/50 would be my suggestions.
Jon

[prs]

May I suggest Felix lube instead of that blue crayola stuff?

Years ago on the old forum we got to disCUSSing rounds for dispatching those mutant giant whistle pigs some locals seem to breed. Around here the .45-70 is a minimal choice to help keep the ground hogs from eating the creosote cross ties and welded rail of the main line CSX tracks. ;-)

prs

[DonMountain]

DonMountain

There in lays the problem....... As mentioned by runfiverun, you need a softer lube. As you note he is working on an "all weather" (read that temperature) lube but has not got there yet. I suggest you try Javelina or 2500+. They work very well for me in from the mid 30 degrees to very hot temperatures. You won't need to use the heater to lube bullets with the RCBS BTW.

Larry Gibson

Ok, so I need to try a different, softer lube like the Javelina or 2500+. Where is a good place to buy these? And I guess I can just flush the LBT lube through my lube-sizer on boolits that don't cause a problem. I generally try to use my deer rifle for ground hogs to keep in tune with the rifle for deer season. And I was going to the 8x57 Mauser since it has a heavier boolit than the light 190 grain 30 Cal boolits. But its a little easier to shoot than my 45-70 with 520 grain boolits. :lol:

[runfiverun]

veral recommends mixing in some vaseline to soften his lbt blue hard.
that's how he makes his soft anyway's.

[Wolfer]

With my soft homemade lube first shot isn't a problem unless the gun haven't been shot for several days. It seems to need to be freshened. Before I go hunting I shoot a few shots the night before.

[buyobuyo]

2500+ is available from White Label Lube (http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/). The owner, Lars, is a member here.

[runfiverun]

2500+ is available from White Label Lube (http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/). The owner, Lars, is a member here.
..... just so ya know his name is glen,lars is short for his last name.

[Larry Gibson]

Javelina is available from Midway (product #653882) and other commercial reloading sources. As mentioned, 2500+ is available from Lars. Sarco Alox is also very good and similar to both. It is also available from Midway.

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

I am certainly not saying this is not a lube problem. I am not saying you can't fix it with a different lube. But, I have had this problem my entire life. In my experience it is just as prevalent with jacketed bullets as with cast. I have no idea what causes it.


When varmint hunting, I always fire a couple of shots into the ground before I start. Hunting for real game? I take a different rifle.


.

[leadman]

Glen's Carnuba Red has not given me any problems with first shots out of the group.
Veral's Blue Soft works well if you do not clean the barrel.

[Char-Gar]

Don... The first round, sometimes two or three of the day from a cold barrel are most often out of the group, but no more than an inch or less. Nothing that would make any difference in hunting. After the first group, the rifles settled down and does it's thing, if I am doing my thing that day.

Like others, I think the lube you use does matter in this regard. I have never used a hard lube that required a heater. I have never found the need to do so. I always figured that if a lube is so hard I have to heat it put in in the bullets lube grooves, it is too hard to leave in the barrel for the bullets to run over. After the barrel cools down, that stuff hardens up again. If you don't need it why use it?

[geargnasher]

Leadman, it won't until you start shooting in cold weather, like 50 or below. If your rifle isn't shooting 1-1.5 MOA to begin with, you likely won't notice.

+1 Char-Gar. I like a lube that's fairly soft, but doesn't get runny at 130 degrees like so many of them do. In cooler weather I still like a soft lube that doesn't turn too stiff.

Gear

[Kraschenbirn]

Don...

Just to raise another possibility...how often and how 'CLEAN' are you scrubbing the bore on that 'M88? Shooting RCBS 30-165-SILs at 100M, my Garand will drop the first round from 'thoroughly clean' bore 6"-7" low, regular as clockwork, with the second, maybe, 3" higher. After that, it's 3 m.o.a. (or better, if I do my part) centered on the X-ring for the rest of the day. And, shooting though a 'hot' or 'cold' barrel doesn't seem to make any difference after it's dirtied up a bit...I can fire 20-30 rounds, leave the rifle on the bench with the bolt open while I walk downrange to change targets, reload, and the next round will go POA.

To get around this aggravation, I've given up on 'thoroughly clean'. Unless I know I won't be shooting the gun within the next three or four weeks, I just swab the bore with two or three patches dampened with Ed's Red, brush clean the innards, and wipe down the outside before putting it back in the rack. Then, every three or four trips to the range, I'll give it a really good cleaning.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

I don't live in places where it gets over 100 in the summer and under 50 in the winter. If I did, the lube would be a more critical matter.

[Dale53]

.22's can teach us a lot about bullet lube and cleaning a barrel.

A few years ago, two other serious shooters and I decided to get serious about our .22's off the bench. We were all retired and were at the range three times a week all that summer. We learned a great deal. We decided that if the "finding" did not apply to all three then it wasn't valid.

We discovered that not only did we get large groups after cleaning but we also discovered the rifles would shoot to different points of impact when shot from a "clean" barrel. We also learned what "clean" meant.

We three decided that we would shoot with a particular lot and brand of ammo that gave us good results, without cleaning, until the groups "went south". If we used one of the popular cleaners, the barrels would take as much as a full box (50) before accuracy returned. We also found that if we used Ed's Red (home mix) it only took one or two shots before accuracy returned. We kept track of our findings. As a result we all had much more consistent results when shooting .22's off the bench.

Lubes are different as the other posters have noted here. The only way to tell is to try it for yourself.

It also applies to centerfire cast bullet rifles as well as center fire handguns.

Since I can have 100 degrees in the summer and 20 below in the winter, I have settled on Lars White Label Carnauba Red. It works for me in all temps. However, and this is a BIG "however, your mileage may vary. I have NO quarrel with those who recommend NRA 50/50 or 2500. Those are both viable choices.

Don't forget that I have had better results with lubricated bullets by cleaning with Ed's Red as stated above.

Good luck to all,
Dale53 (shooting with cast bullets is part science and part art - never forget that...)

[Dale53]

Another separate comment.

One of the guys mentioned above had a fine shooting single shot .22 rimfire. He was talked into lubing the barrel (with a procedure) with particular "super" motor oil that had molybdenum in it. The rifle shot wild and nothing seemed to help. After shooting 500 rounds (a whole brick, not a misprint) the accuracy finally returned. He thought he had ruined his barrel and only a person with great persistence would have prevailed.

Beware of quack fixes - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! That was the lesson from that little episode!

FWIW
Dale53

[nanuk]

I don't live in places where it gets over 100 in the summer and under 50 in the winter. If I did, the lube would be a more critical matter.

really?

Wow...

I live in a place where we get an 80 degree swing summer/winter in CELSIUS!

(that's -40F to 104F) and it has only been the last few years that we haven't seen a -45 (thank YOU Global Warming)

[Char-Gar]

Dale..I found your post interesting as it duplicates our findings 55 years ago in high level competition with 22 match rifles. It was an accepted fact back then and we didn't clean our rifles until match season was over. It is only in recent years that folks have disputed that fact.

With my center fire rifles and cast bullets, when I come home from the range I run two patches with Ed's Red followed by three or four dry patches. It only takes two or three rounds to get it back up and running again.

Nanuk... I leave near Brownsville in deep south Texas.

[geargnasher]

Dang Nanuk, if I had to endure that, I'd paper patch everything. I'm about 400 miles NW from Char-Gar and in a slightly different climate due in part to terrain and vegetation. It routinely gets to 103-106F ambient daytime high for weeks on end with the heat index of 115-120. In winter we might see three days or a couple of spells of up to a week where it never gets above freezing, but that is rare. If it gets below 10F at night it's practically a regional emergency.

I too prefer Ed's Red as a wipe-out because it doesn't do a deep, stripping kind of clean on the bore and helps preserve a lot of the "season" in the metal. It's good enough to knock out most of the powder residue and leave a light (but unobtrusive) lube film for short-term rust protection. I use higher-powered stuff for deep cleanings.

Gear

[rhead]

Does the problem also occur when single feeding? I have a couple of bolt action 22s (bottom feeders) that show this problem with a fuul magazine. Short loading the magazine makes it go away.

[44man]

Does the problem also occur when single feeding? I have a couple of bolt action 22s (bottom feeders) that show this problem with a fuul magazine. Short loading the magazine makes it go away.
One thing to check.
Had a big problem with accuracy long ago with a Weatherby .22 semi. No trouble when shot single shot.
I found the magazine pressure was pushing the nose up and the bolt going back tore up the boolit nose.
Cycle a few through your guns with full mags and look at the boolits.

[DonMountain]

I've noticed that since I switched from shooting the ground hogs with an 8mm Mauser that wouldn't throw a good shot in a cold rifle with a hard lube, to shooting them with 520 grain boolits in the 45-70, which always throws accurate shots, that the dead whistle pig bodies weigh a lot more? And the soy beans aren't even up yet? :guntootsmiley:

[1Shirt]

Shot a 15 lb. chuck in N.Y. many years ago and thought it was a monster! Sure would like to see a pic of a 25 or 30 pounder. Must look like a young bear cub!
1Shirt!

[leftiye]

Soften your lube by adding 2stroke or other synthetic oil. I do this by adding bullplate lube to my Carnauba red (9 t0 1). Look on the Ultimate Loob thread in lubes forum there are several good oils mentioned there whch can be added to a lube to soften it.

[popper]

We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight). That is called responsible voting.

[stocker]

My thought is that hard lubes are prone to leave a lube residue in the bore ( as other softer lubes also do) but with days elapsed and cooling of the barrel the residual lube hardens again to the point that it actually increases pressure a bit as the lube acts to tighten the bore. A shot or two strips the hard residue away and the barrel is warmed so the residual lube stays soft and shots are predictable. That's just my hypothesis on what is going on and others may disagree.

I use a lot of Glen's Carnauba red lube which is also a bit hard but not so hard as some others. My first shot from a time rested barrel may be an inch high and a tiny bit right but not so extreme as to affect any hunting I am liable to do with them. I wouldn't want to shoot for group without first taking a couple of shots to warm the barrel though.

Like my country man from the prairies we also see a very similar wide (130F spread) temperature range in a years time. During mid to late fall and winter I soften my C. red with 3/4 of a capful of STP oil treatment per stick of lube. It seems to do the trick.

[runfiverun]

stocker:
you have a handle on what happens.
and a good cure also.
not so sure about the stp [ehhh, personal view] but it works for you.

[Walter Laich]

What if you skip the first bullet and just start shooting starting with the second one?

[leftiye]

That one misses for me also, maybe I'll just start with the second group? BTW Waksupi sells Loob Grooves.