Coach Gun Project

[ShootNSteel]

I picked up an old 30" double bbl hammerless 12 ga minus the rear stock at a flea market for $60. It's in decent shape, just light surface rust and usual old gun petina. The name on the sideplate is Union Arms Co. Toledo Ohio
I bought it with the intention of turning it into an 18" bbl coach gun. It has some dents in the barrel after the 18" mark and this would solve that problem quite will.
My main issue though is that I have read that older Damascus type barrels are quite unsafe to shoot. Although this one looks like it has ample metal in the chamber area. It does say Wilson's Welded Steel on top of the barrel filler between the two barrels, so I am wondering if this is a steel barrel instead of the Damascus type. Are there any tell tale signs to differentiate between the two?
I may just have to take this to a gunsmith to be sure it's safe to fire.
Pics to follow if anyones interrested

[LUCKYDAWG13]

yes i would like to see them

[ShootNSteel]

Pics...

[Frank46]

Not to rain on your parade but the feds want 18" or better on shotgun barrels. Safe bet to take them down to 19" this way no worries. Good luck with your project. Frank

[adrians]

my coach has a barrel of 18 1/2" and is a damascus so if yours turns out to be the same i would stick to bp loads to be safe.
Handy little beasts to have around though.:twisted::popcorn::evil:

[ShootNSteel]

I agree, I was going to go over the 18" mark by a bit.
Can you buy black powder loads or do you have to make them? Reloading shot shells is somthing I thought I would never have to do.

[excess650]

Damascus barrels have a definite look to them. In that they are forge welded around a mandrel, there should be a noticeable helical twist pattern visible. The term "welded steel" suggests to me that they are damascus.

Not all damascus barrels are equal in strength or weakness. Some are MUCH stronger than others, but regardless, they are OLD, so be prudent in what you feed it. It might be perfectly safe with light loads, but avoid magnum loads.

I thought about doing something like you're attempting. I went to a few gun shows looking for an older, hammerless double to shorten. Most that I found had loose actions, broken or cracked stocks, or were more $ than I wanted to spend. Good gunsmith work isn't inexpensive, so I bought a Baikal 20" hammerless 12ga double on gunbroker. Between the purchase price, shipping and local dealer charges I have less than $300 in it. Too, I know they are built like a tank, so I'm not concerned about what loads I put in it. Mine is intended as a "working gun", so has and will continue to be shot rather than a "home defense gun" or novelty.

Between the lack of trigger guard and no buttstock it looks like you bought a money pit.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I thought about doing something like you're attempting. I went to a few gun shows looking for an older, hammerless double to shorten. Most that I found had loose actions, broken or cracked stocks, or were more $ than I wanted to spend. Good gunsmith work isn't inexpensive, so I bought a Baikal 20" hammerless 12ga double on gunbroker. Between the purchase price, shipping and local dealer charges I have less than $300 in it. Too, I know they are built like a tank, so I'm not concerned about what loads I put in it. Mine is intended as a "working gun", so has and will continue to be shot rather than a "home defense gun" or novelty.

Between the lack of trigger guard and no buttstock it looks like you bought a money pit.[/QUOTE]

i did the same thing those Baikal are tanks i got one a few months back
cost $250. new

[wv109323]

I can't tell from the pictures. Damascus barrels were several metals laid in a pattern. The pattern was then spirally twisted around a mandrel and forged with heat. With Damascus barrels you should see a reoccurring pattern in the metal and from a distance notice that the pattern spirals down the barrel. I think you will need to remove all surface rust before you can tell. If in doubt get a pros opinion.

[sundog]

I would not shoot it, black or any other powder. My safety is worth more than that.

[Old Ironsights]

I have an old 16ga Damascus double hammer gun. I shoot it, but ONLY with sub-guage chamber inserts. I mostly use .410 in my 16, but would consider 28. 20ga would be pushing it IMO.

The Chamber Liner handles all the pressure and the barrel is barely touched by anything.

For a 12ga I would have no problems shooting 20ga or smaller shells out of it with any brand of Chamber inserts (Guage-mate, Brieley, Remington, whatever).

[ShootNSteel]

Thank you for the replies, I will look into the chamber inserts.
As for a money pit, I disagree, more like a fun pit!
Other than what I need to make the gun shoot safe, I've got all the materials I need to finish it.

[Frank46]

I have heard about using some type of acid to reveal the pattern of the damascus in barrels. But darn if I can remember which one or how it was supposed to be used to bring out the pattern. CRS strikes again, Frank

[Old Ironsights]

Be aware that the inserts are NOT for gaming. They are for haunting/slow reload only.

[bubba.50]

buy a couple cheap used 20ga barrels and have them turned to make barrel liners from them. lotsa old damascus guns been saved that way. for what it's worth. luck to ya and have a good'en friend, bubba.

[DIRT Farmer]

The damascus pattern is generaly still there under the forarm wood. The statement that they are welded steel leads me to belive they are.

[itsatdm]

A little history on your gun: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=265619

Known as the Union Firearms co. orginaly. Changed to Union arms co. in 1910 and disappeared around 1913 after selling some patents to Ithica. Looks like they offered the shotguns in either Damascas or steel.

[Multigunner]

A potential problem when cutting down barrels of older doubles is that some gunmakers improved balance and handling by making the barrel walls much thinner in the middle than at the muzzle.

This is more often found on the highest quality doubles rather than workaday guns.

If the barrel walls are thinned in the middle when cut down the walls may be thin enough at the new muzzle to split, especially if modern loads are used.

I'd either use a more recent manufacture gun, or try the bore inserts as suggested.

As for dented barrels, these can often be drawn out, and tools for this purpose are available.

[justashooter]

I have heard about using some type of acid to reveal the pattern of the damascus in barrels. But darn if I can remember which one or how it was supposed to be used to bring out the pattern. CRS strikes again, Frank

nitric acid 12% on a polished surface for 5-10 seconds will etch any weld pattern to visibility. this technique can be used to validate damascening, size grain boundaries in heat treated castings, look for micro-abrasion, etc.

[TXGunNut]

I think welded steel is just another term for Damascus, one was probably a brand name. It does look like a fun project but it might be a good idea to have a good gunsmith with experience in this area look it over and tell you what you're getting into. Would be a shame to do all the stock and cosmetic work on a gun that won't be safe to fire.
Sure hope it checks out, old girl looks like she'd make a nice shotgun someday.

[NoZombies]

There were several quality levels of "damascus" used for shotgun barrels. Generally the "welded steel" term was used to describe only the least expensive and lowest quality types.

The gun is unsafe to shoot with smokeless loads as-is, but as others have mentioned, lining the gun with smaller gauge fluid steel barrels would be an option if you don't care to load BP shells.

Either way though, have a competent gunsmith check it over before firing anything!