Percussion Match Rifles

[PanaDP]

Does anybody know of good resources for building a percussion match rifle in the style of the rigby and gibbs muzzleloading rifles of the 1870s? Things like preference of type of rifling, steady or gain twist, design of the false muzzle and starter, etc.

Much of the hardware is easily found but I'm having trouble locating appropriate barrels. Everything I can find is slow twist for patched roundballs.

Also, any modern makers of this type of rifle would be of great interest. So far, all of the searching I've done has yielded auctions of original rifles and the couple reproductions that pedersoli makes.

[Tatume]

Take a look at the Ferriss rifle on Lee Shaver's website: http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/StoreFront.bok

Also, contact Steve Zihn: szihn@wyoming.com who builds a wonderful rifle.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Everything I read about the Pedersoli Gibbs says that would be hard to beat. Holds the center to center group record at Friendship so far.
Mike in Peru

[PanaDP]

I could buy a complete gun but I'm leaning toward building from parts with my Dad. I've got him interested in that type of shooting and he's built one rifle and done enough woodwork that I think we could build a hell of a rifle.

Anyone have information on mounts to put a sight on the top of the butt for supine position shooting? I was thinking of flattening the top of the butt plate so I can just mount a regular sight base. Is there a better way?

[Alan]

+1 on Steve Zihn. Hell, +5 on Steve.

[Lead Fred]

I would never buy anything with the Pedersoli name on it.

Dixie gun works catalong or track of the wolf are good starting points.

If I wanted a super muzzle loaders, Id by a Paker Hale Witworth Rifle

[Nobade]

Here's one good source...

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/english.shtml

[ResearchPress]

If I wanted a super muzzle loaders, Id by a Paker Hale Witworth Rifle
Fun, interesting to shoot and accurate, but not competitive against the later style full match rifles.

David

[ResearchPress]

Anyone have information on mounts to put a sight on the top of the butt for supine position shooting? I was thinking of flattening the top of the butt plate so I can just mount a regular sight base. Is there a better way?
Some of the original butt plates had integral bases such that a sight could be mounted directly there. If you're looking at this, see what sights you can find that are tall enough to account for the drop in the stock. Other original rifles had raised sight bases that could be attached to the stock and the tang sight moved back to that mount if used supine.

David

[Tatume]

Fun, interesting to shoot and accurate, but not competitive against the later style full match rifles. David

Hi David,

Can you point me to sources for some of the rifles to which you make reference?

Thanks, Tom

[ResearchPress]

Have a look at the Target Rifles section (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targetrifles/index.htm)on my web site.

In the early days of the NRA(GB) rifle matches the military match rifles (of which the Parker-Hale Whitworth and Volunteer rifles are typical) were the general form. Whitworth dominated but others such as Alexander Henry, the LAC Kerr and Turner perfomed well. c1864 the military styled rifles started to be replaced by those with half stocks and pistol grips - more weight could be put in the barrel without exceeding the weight limit for the 'any rifle' events.

In 1865 the Gibbs-Metford appeared and won a major event. This replaced the deeply rifled barrels with very shallow rifling and hardened bullets. Rigby was quick to adapt to this style and Metford and Rigby rifles dominated in the later years of the muzzle loading long range target rifle matches. Whitworth rifles gradually disappeared from the ranges.

David

[ResearchPress]

For which type of match shooting are you gearing up?

The original post referred to Rigby and Gibbs rifles of the 1870s. These were long range rifles typically used in matches out to 1200 yards.

David

[pricedo]

I would never buy anything with the Pedersoli name on it.

Why?
:popcorn:

[PanaDP]

The original post referred to Rigby and Gibbs rifles of the 1870s. These were long range rifles typically used in matches out to 1200 yards.

David

That's correct. It's much more of an interest at the moment rather than gearing up for a specific match or type of match. I'm very interested in the first creedmoor match and the other international matches of that immediate period. I became interested through getting a sharps model 1874 and setting it up for target shooting. Now I'm thinking how fun it would be to have a rifle like the opposition in that match shot.

[ResearchPress]

That transitional period in long range shooting, where the British long range muzzle loading match rifle had evolved to its final form and the long range breech loaders were being further developed is a most interesting time.

David

[4060MAY]

start with barrel makers that will make a false muzzle for you, or recommend someone to do it on their barrel
most slug guns I have seen in .45cal usually are 1-18 twist just like a 45-90..about the same powder charge and bullet length
Bobby Hoyt is a very good barrel maker but I do not have contact info

Colrain might be another place to look
http://colerainbarrel.com/

there are some under hammers on this site also
http://underhammers.blogspot.com/

If you are in the Ohio area we have slug gun matches at the Canal Fulton Ramrod Club

a link to our blog

http://canal-fulton-ramrod.webs.com/

[Nobade]

But... slug guns and English match rifles are two completely different types of rifles.

[4060MAY]

Looks like it's oranges and tangerines, no false muzzles but bullets, not sure if patching is allowed

http://www.mlagb.com/bisley2011/index.htm

Try Dave Gullo. or Lee shaver for advice

[ResearchPress]

Some British match rifles used false muzzles, although they were muzzle protectors really - stopping wear from the loading and cleaning rods in this critical area. Paper patch bullets were generally used in the 19th century and are still commonly used today.

19C NRA(GB) match rifle rules and those used for the International Matches at Creedmoor, Dollymount and Wimbledon had a 10lb weight limit for rifles. Current International Rules permit 15lb, but the MLAIC Constitution is under review and the proposal is to lower the weight limit to 13lb. See: http://www.mlaic.org

David

[shdwlkr]

this is what you want if you can ever find one for sale

Thompson/Center introduces the "Cleland" Match Hawken rifle, a precision grade .40 caliber cap lock rifle intended for serious target shooters.

The .40 caliber patched round ball has long been considered the "ultimate" projectile for competitive shooting. Combining the inherent accuracy of the .40 caliber round ball with a 31" precision rifled barrel (1 in 48" twist), Thompson/ Center has produced a competition grade rifle that will shoot as well as it looks.

The heavy octagon barrel is 1" across the flats, giving the competitive shooter the added weight needed for a steady hold, and the 31" barrel gives the shooter the sight radius needed for a finer sight picture.

The all-steel adjustable target rear sight has large knobs so that windage and elevation adjustments can be made with your fingers.

Used by National Champion Chad Cleland, a T/C Pro Staff Advisor, this match-grade Hawken is suitably named the "Cleland" Match Hawken rifle.

Specifications:
Barrel: Length 31", Octagon, polished & blued. .40 caliber, 1" across the flats. 1 in 48" twist.
Breech: Hooked Breech System.
Lock: Internal springs are heavy duty coil type.
Triggers: Fully adjustable for a light crisp pull. Triggers function either as double set or single stage.
Sights: Click adjustable rear target sight with bead front sight.
Trim: Solid brass trigger guard, patch box, butt plate and forend cap.
Stock: Made of select American Walnut. Tastefully contoured cheek piece on left hand side.
Weight: Approximately 9 1/2 pounds.
OA Length: 48 1/4".

[PanaDP]

Some British match rifles used false muzzles, although they were muzzle protectors really - stopping wear from the loading and cleaning rods in this critical area. Paper patch bullets were generally used in the 19th century and are still commonly used today.

19C NRA(GB) match rifle rules and those used for the International Matches at Creedmoor, Dollymount and Wimbledon had a 10lb weight limit for rifles. Current International Rules permit 15lb, but the MLAIC Constitution is under review and the proposal is to lower the weight limit to 13lb. See: http://www.mlaic.org

David

Were the Rigby rifles used at/around the time of creedmoor made with false muzzles? I've never seen one sold with those accessories and the photos I can find never include views of the muzzle itself.

[ResearchPress]

Yes, the Rigby's had false muzzles. See the following on my web site:
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/gunmakers/ireland/rigby/rigbynsn001.htm

David

[ResearchPress]

this is what you want if you can ever find one for sale......

An entirely different form of rifle. Sounds nice for short range, but wouldn't make a long range rifle. Some have played with 40 cal and 1 in 16 twist but none featured in the last World Championships.

David

[ml45]

I have rebarreled a lot of drum ignition rifles with 45 cal 1 in 18 sharps pattern . bore 451 grv 458 I also have a parker hale birmingham Equaly sighted out to 300 yds i see no real differnce as far as hunting accuracy goes

[Good Cheer]

Some ricochet thoughts for the conversation...
Mr. Hoyt lined a barrel to have a .458 bore diameter to use the various off the shelf 45-70 molds. Uses lube soaked 1/2" punched egg carton wads. I love it.
I have another rifle with .400 bore and .410 groove, with a piece of the barrel blank made into a rifling die to pre-engrave the bullets. Uses lube soaked 7/16" punched egg carton wads. I love it but wish the bore had been sized to take larger diameter bullets with less sizing, to use various off the shelf .40 caliber rifle molds without so much sizing.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/TwoWhitworthrifles004.jpg
These are a couple of Original Whitworth Rifles.The military one is by Beasley in 451 cal,The match Rifle is by Whitworths company (Manchester ordnance and Rifle co) and is in the unusual calibre of 568,and is quite a rarity.

[bob208]

robert hoyt fairfield pa. can make the barrel for you.

[johnson1942]

buy every part from the source norbade suggested except the barrel. call me at my phone number, you will find it on pineridgeblackpowder.com or email me. i will walk you through building it step by step with your dad. i have a lot of sources. it will be a real shooter when you are done with it.