flat points

[jp1]

Being new to using cast bullets I just want to ask. Do flat point cast bullets kill deer better?

[waksupi]

Absolutely. Works better on antelope, bear, elk and bison in my experience, too. Look through the "Hunting with CB's" part of the forum. I think it is safe to say 99% of the kills there were with flat nosed boolits.
Welcome aboard.

[Screwbolts]

IMHO, YUPPER!

Cast in Muzzleloaders: BRPs FN and LBTs LFN

NOE 311165 FN from 30-30 PB, 15gr 4759. works great.

NOE 225-55 FN in 22-250, 222, 223 and hornets work great also.

[JJC]

Should be some pictures if you do a search, of the damage done by flat points.

[runfiverun]

i don't know, dead is dead.
i do use fp's though, just to make sure i don't marginally kill something.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

jp1,

I am an Old jacketed bullet hunter, but one who has cast for handguns for years.

About 3 - 4 or so years ago, I started thinking along the lines that casting my own rifle hunting boolits was about the only thing still available for me to do with my "roll my own" frame of mind.

So I started doing a bunch of reading on a number of forums and publications and put that with the info I had from the book written by Veral Smith from Lead Bullet Technology (LBT).

I had bought into the cast boolits with the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) for handguns after reading Veral's book probably 15 or so years back, so it was a natural step to also look in that direction with rifles.

Also, being a bigger is better person, I felt that the 45/70 would be about ideal for cast boolits, plus the fact that they were available in the RUGER #1.

I am just so impressed with the results I have now seen with the use of a WFN boolit on 3 deer and one large cow elk. Awesome at the very least.

I know that some folk use smaller calibers with cast projectals, but I personally feel that .35 caliber is about where good results can really be expected to start, with the .44 a big step up and the .45 better still.

One thing I have noticed with the WFN boolits is, the entry wound is much larger then the typical entry wound made with a quality "J" bullet. Not talking "J" bullets of lower integrity which may over expand on contact, but quality "J" bullets with many years and thousands of animals on the ground proof.

Not trying to sell you on "J" bullet hunting here, but setting the standard by which I have been judging my WFN cast boolit results.

You don't need high velocities to produce good results, and in fact my first critter taken with a 355gr boolit at a muzzle velocity of over 2300fps showed excessive results.

My last three, including the elk were with a 465gr WFN boolit out the muzzle at 1600 - 1700fps. As said, AWESOME.

You don't need soft nose cast boolits, forget the hollow points, Just make sure you are using a good alloy and a WFN boolit, then as with all firearms and all hunting, place your shots well. Within reason, the heavier the better on boolit weight.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[JJC]

Entrance and exit holes on a mule deer at about 40 yards. .45 cal, 405 gr boolit, .33 meplat (flat point). 60/40 stick on clip on ww, heated and quenched. To give you a visual. It worked for me. 60/40 is to soft for elk though in my opinion. John

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

John,

That is likely a bit softer then my alloy which is 50/50 WW an soft lead.

I am using the stick on ww for the soft lead as they are very soft when compared to the clip on.

This alloy was recommended by the maker of my 465gr WFN boolit mold along with the use of H335.

Followed his directions and this boolit, alloy, powder is waaaaay out shooting anything I tried with the earlier 355gr boolit.

Bruce also recommended quenching the boolits as they dropped from the mold, plus sizing SOON after casting then allowing to age for a minimum of 7 days before shooting.

He also recommended using a .460 push through sizing die and a .461 luber/sizer die which allows you to size soon after casting and then lubing at any time without messing up the surface hardness of the cast boolit.

CDOC

[JJC]

I wanted 50 50 and found out my pot only held 17 pounds. Thats how I wound up with 60 40. I have been reading all you have wrote since you shot your elk. Thanks, John

[white eagle]

lots of good advice there
Thanks Bruce

[MT Gianni]

Search Meplate or Meplat and spend a few weeks reading.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, Mt Gianni, and to this Ol'Coot, all those many reports seems pretty conclusive as to the effectiveness of the WFN boolits both in handguns and rifles.

That and what little I have seen, sure made a believer out of me!

CDOC

[x101airborne]

If given the choice, I would go with the WFN style boolits. They have worked for my son, my wife, and me. I have used the 308 in a TC Contender with flat points and round nose bore riders, but havent killed enough with them to form a negative opinion..... YET. I will say this.... Tracking with a large .40 cal and up flat point has been very successful and short on hogs so far. I have hunters coming in tomorrow afternoon and only brought my 44 mag marlin with 300 grain Ranch Dogs. Wich, of course is a large, heavy flat point. They do instill confidence.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
A simple way to test these yourself is the one gallon water jug. Except tie a piece of 1/2 inch plywood to the front and back side. Shoot it at 25 yards with a round nosed boolit lets say cast of WW. Very common mix and style of boolit. Now shoot the same rig (after duck taping the two jug holes and refilling) through an undamaged portion with a flatnosed boolit (SWC is OK) made the same mix and near the same weight at the same velocity. Now compare the exit holes. I have yet to see a flat nosed design not make at least 25% better exit wounds.
The impact sound is also louder, more of a Thwap with FN designs. Ends up the same on critters.
Last fox I shot was with a caliber .22 Long Rifle for instance. First round was a home filed flatnose. Fox was slow trotting towards me at 35 yards. Boolit struck just to the left of center chest and exited on the far side catching a rib. Fox was half spun to the left. The 5 follow up shots were the same cartrige yet still standard RN design. Each hardly made any reaction on the fox as it stood there. Exit holes.. only one showed a larger definite ragged nasty wound. My old Springfield auto loader will only feed RN. Thus the RN followups.
So I also vote for a flat nose boolits especially in handguns and other low velocity cartriges for hunting.
Mike in Peru

[MBTcustom]

I shot my first deer with cast lead rifle boolits year before last. I wont go back.
It's my opinion that all the ballistic tip, HP, etc jacketed bullets are an effort to get a bullet that is too hard, to kinda sorta perform like a cast lead boolit. I have been reloading for 15 years, and most of the deer were shot with my own reloads. I have discovered that getting a deadly load is much easier with cast lead than with jacketed. First of all, you dont have to push them as fast to get the same result. Second, they work better even at reduced velocities. Third, you can get all this performance for a fraction of the cost of those shiny factory jobs.
Now to the original subject, FN boolits work the best and its a guarantee that they will do maximum damage. The only RN I hunt with is a 250grain 35 caliber, but that's because it has this awesome habit of tumbling when it hits. The boolit exits sideways every time. Its the finger of death to whatever I shoot it at. But tumbling is something that you can only depend on in certain specific combinations, whereas a FN works every time, all the time.
Thats all I got.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Guess I'll sound off again following up a bit on goodsteel's post.

Not trying to suggest that we all move to "J" bullets here, but just saying that with "J" bullets, quality and integrity are as important as it is with cast boolits.

I come down pretty heavy on "J" bullets with the integrity of the Nosler Partition, and have never once seen them do anything but what they are designed to do, and do it very well.

Soooooooooo with our cast boolits it would be no different. Pick an alloy which is overly hard or too soft and your asking for trouble. Pick a pointed or round nose
boolit profile, and again, your asking for problems.

With a proper alloy and WFN boolit profile, you want/need little to no expansion, you don't want the boolit shattering because of an overly hard/brittle alloy and you don't want or need the boolit to flatten out like a silver dollar on the first rib it hits.

Almost a given with a good WFN boolit, driven at a reasonable velocity, is a total pass through on even a big critter.

My elk this past year, was put down with my 465gr WFN boolit at 1600 - 1700fps muzzle vel. and although it did not make it all the way through the critter, it traveled a huge distance, taking out the near shoulder, a rib, lung, all the way through a very full and VERY HEAVY paunch before stopping just under the hide.

In short, it did some real work through some real hard going and almost exited. on this frontal quartering shot.

Most impressive and I'm glad to have this boolit for show and tell as I'll likely not retreave another one.

In this Ol'Coot's opinion, pick a good and proven boolit of something over 400gr if shooting .45 caliber, shoot a good alloy at reasonable velocities and you'll soon be singing the praises of the WFN boolits.

CDOC :cbpour:

[JJC]

I have Beartooth bullets technical guide. In it gives you an idea, of impact velocity and meplat diameter and the resulting wound channel diameter. They are based on hard nonexpanding boolits. I don't have Verals book but I hear they are simmilar? You may be able to find the same info at beartooth's web site. Alot of good reading there too. John

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

John,

Thanks for that tip!

Although I am a believer on the WFN boolits, it is good to get more info!

CDOC

[Blammer]

I'm all for good meplats.

but the last handgun deer I took used this boolit. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6457.jpg

Completely penetrated the deer diagonally, 44mag at 1350 fps 10yd shot

and then this one, heart shot at 150 yds (the middle two boolits)
311284 at 1850 fps

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/2_30cal.jpg

[Blammer]

and of course this one out of my Win94 360 DW

the 180gr is on the left, that's the one I used.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6583.jpg

[white eagle]

find this combo and you'll have a winning combination
a good flat meplat and accuracy
the biggest flattest does not always mean the most accurate
its a compromise...... accuracy,meplat,alloy... get them rite and you have your own stories to tell

[David LaPell]

This doe was shot by a .577 Minie ball from 100 yards. When it hit the neck it shattered the spine and the windpipe was actually cut, all I had to do was give it a light tug when I field dressed her. She dropped where she stood. The front of the bullet is called the meplat, the wide the meplat is the better. In handguns the .45 colt did well with the 452424 bullet, in .44 Magnum is was 429421 and there are others for the other handgun calibers. If you look at those they all have a wide meplat.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/muzzledeer2.jpg

[horsesoldier]

I would like to have that muzzleloader.....

[TXGunNut]

The way I look at it a boolit has a given amount of energy available determined by bullet mass and velocity. If the bullet isn't designed slow down on impact and transmit that energy while in the "target" it will waste that remaining energy on whatever stops it after it exits the target. I'm a big fan of big, slow WFN boolits and the muzzle energy is nowhere near what I obtain with my 30-06 with pointy j-bullets but my boolits transmit more energy to the critters I hunt than the j-bullets do, or so it seems to me.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

TXgunNut,

Well if they don't transmit more more energy, in total, they do so over a longer distance, providing of course the critter is big enough.[smilie=l:

I try to make it clear to readers that I am not a long time 45/70 & cast boolit user,
But after reading lots and having the 4 cast boolit critters taken over the last two seasons, I am totally with you as to the effectiveness of the WFN boolits.

Maybe a bit of correction here, I have cast boolits for years, but it is a much shorter time frame in which I have been casting RIFLE hunting boolits and hunting with SAME.

After hunting for many years with "J" boolits, I am seeing the cast WFN give results waaaaaay out of reason for these velocities.

Make em big and make em flat!

Yep, awesome! :cbpour:

CDOC

[TXGunNut]

I'm no expert on killing critters with WFN boolits with rifles either, CDOC, but I've carried them for years in my .45 Colt RBH. I'm gathering info as quickly as I can and so far it's been pretty awesome. The j-bullet I've been using in my 45-70 has a nice big meplat and my experience with that was part of the reason I transitioned to boolits.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Guess I'm with ya again, as I pack a 310gr LBT, LFN boolit in my .44 - 5.5" Redhawk.

Just a touch over 1300fps from that big boy. Would like to reach out and touch a critter with that one, but having such a good time with the 45/70, not sure I can make the jump.

Maybe I'll get a cow moose tag this year and that would give me the possibility of more critter oppertunities.

Moose tag, --------- do I take the 45/70 the .44? Oh my, now what will I do.

Not likely to have the problem, as a moose tag is really iffy. But then, I did get a bull moose tag back 15 years ago or so, so it does happen. :grin:

CDOC

[onesonek]

"After hunting for many years with "J" boolits, I am seeing the cast WFN give results waaaaaay out of reason for these velocities."

It does defy logic I agree CDOC, but I do think it is quite simple in explanation.
Pointy bullets need some of it's energy to make the bullet blunt so it can transfer more of it's energy. A flat point boolit does not need this extra velocity and energy to accomplish this. Flat Points start transfer at the onset. After that the mechanism is the same,,,,,,penetration. Beyond that, one might argue how much penetration is needed, which is decided by the terminal sectional density.
As far as I'm concerned, one can't have too much penetration. I would rather see the bullet/boolit able to maintain that energy transfer the whole distance of it's time in the animal, rather than come to a stop on the far side under the hide.
Both will kill quite effectively. However, in some terrain and cover situations, exits I think leave a better blood trail if the animal doesn't go down on the hit. With that said, in open country, exits may not be needed. But one may not always have that open country situation even if that is the primary area. And so, I plan for and use enough bullet/boolit weight that exits occur in all situations with both types of projectiles.
The biggest difference I see between the two is,,,, cast are cheap and the lower impact velocities create less bloodshot/meat destruction. In short, one don't need to turn the vitals into a bloody mutulated mass that looks like it went through a Wearing Blender in order to kill.
Let the blood and air out, life is short!!!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

You say it pretty well Dave!

However, my first cast boolit eat'in type critter was taken with a 355gr WFN at about 100yds with a muzzle velocity of a touch over 2300fps.

Yeeeeeeeeow, the tissue loss was a bit over the top!!!!!!!!!!

Much better with my current 465gr boolit at 1600 - 1700 fps!

CDOC

[onesonek]

I can believe that CDOC, even at a 100 yds.
And I also agree, 15-1700 is much easier on tissue destruction. I say 1500, as 15-1600 fps is my goal with most big bore cast. That velocity will do well enough to the ranges I would use them. And that wouldn't be much if any over 150 yds.

I do have one rig I push into that 22-2300 fps arena, but it's intended use is for abit farther out, and it's a smaller caliber (,375) to start with. Hopefully when I get a chance to poke an elk with it, I will find out how it performs. It has a smaller meplat, but so long as it has some deformation bringing the frontal area to a full one caliber diameter, I think it will do just fine out there with a terminal velocity no lower than 1700, (my personal lower limit for this round).

[waksupi]

I don't remember the source, but it was said a wound channel over 1.5" is a slower killer than a smaller one. The idea is, a smaller wound channel tends to bleed faster, to clean the wound out. The larger channels cause a muscle reaction to gather itself together, restricting the blood flow, resulting in slower kills. Wound channels with my .358 Win. in elk pretty well follow this size channel, according to the exit wound. Internal damage to organs tends to be quite a bit more. They bleed out so fast inside that although there is a good blood trail, it isn't massive, as all the blood is in the chest cavity. I can not recall an elk going over 35 yards after a good lung shot with a cast bullet, and the one that went that far rolled down the mountain half that distance.
Click on my name, and look at my album. Aside from the archery and shotgun kills, the rest were with flat nosed cast bullets. The pictures are not all inclusive of the kills I've used them for.

[nanuk]

I have a couple comments

Just looking at the trend for dangerous game bullets, many are now using FP's

I have also read in the past where ProHunters in Africa were saying a round nose does not penetrate STRAIGHT but a FP usually penetrates STRAIGHT and DEEPER to give confidence on penetration

it goes counter to intuition that a slower boolit kills better than a fast one, and I have wondered why, for a long time.
but think like this for a moment: take a very sharp knife and swing it like a bat into some meat and it will cut deep, but not move the meat much. Now, take that same knife and without sawing it, just push it through the meat, and it will still go through but it also pushes meat around....

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Morn'in folks! Interesting info this morning!!

Setting here reading and eating Delk (deer & elk) sausage from this past Fall's cast boolit harvest of 1 elk and 2 deer. Hmmmmmmm Good! :bigsmyl2:

Sorry, just couldn't resist and didn't even try.

Back to my first 45/70 cast boolit kill with the 355gr WFN at 2300+ muzzle ------------ as I have noted earlier on this thread or other times/places, having read about eating right up to the boolit hole with cast boolits I was just totally blown away - pun intended - by the size of that hole.

As said, first cast boolit critter and I didn't hold down into the deer far enough, causing the boolit to take out the spine and back strap.

No big or huge hole on the outside, but under the hide from side to side there was about a 4" hole where everything was simply gone. Blown out the off side hole.

I was greatly surprised at the results. Eating up to the boolit hole was no problem, I just didn't expect such a large hole!

Oh yes, least I forget, critter was, DRT !

As the recent posts are making quite clear, with the WFN high velocity is not needed and from what little I have seen, it can quickly become "to much of a good thing."

CDOC :cbpour: [smilie=w:

[303Guy]

Sorry, just couldn't resist and didn't even try.Hee hee! A buddy has given me a little red deer meat and oh boy is it good! So juicy and tender and for me, dry, just the way I like meat.

Crusty, I do enjoy your wisdom and experience, thanks for you input on this site in general. Very interesting what you had to tell about the cast flat noses on deer & elk.

I lack the personal experience but from what I've read, deduced and been told over the years agrees with what has been said. Now for my question if I may, what about the small bores? 303 Brit in particular (like you wouldn't have guessed!) For me, a short and flat nose would make life a lot easier from a casting and nose slump point of view and it would be great if such would do the trick on piglets and dears. Bear in mind that 'piglets can get pretty large and red deer are on the menu. Add to that the fact that I'm hopeless at tracking and besides, I'll be hunting in wet and muddy forests where blood trails mean very little and one can get lost very quickly! (A curious point is that being quite close to the south pole, GPS gets quite inaccurate in the hills and bush). Oh, the idea is have quite a bit of lead behind that flat nose.


I have also read in the past where ProHunters in Africa were saying a round nose does not penetrate STRAIGHT but a FP usually penetrates STRAIGHT and DEEPER to give confidence on penetrationnanuk, that is in line with what I have been given to believe. An old Rhodesian hunter told me 'they' had asked one of the bullet/cartridge makers to make them 220gr flat nosed fmj 30-06 cartridges for their straight and deep penetration on dangerous game. He showed me a sample and it had a near bullet diameter meplat. He was of talking brain shots on elephant and didn't comment other flat nose benefits.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

WOW 303guy,

Wish I could help you out a bunch on the smaller cast boolit hunting info, but must defer to those on this forum who have been there and done that.

While I have cast and shot some .243 and 30 caliber boolits, it has not been for hunting and even then was very limited.

As I hope I have made clear, my person experience with cast boolit hunting is very limited when compaired to many people on this and other forums, but to this point, I must say that what little experience I have matches up 100% with the info I have read as per the effectiveness of WFN boolits.

I would suggest you go to the LBT web site (Lead Bullet Technology) and read whatever Veral has posted. Veral Smith also has a book available called, "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets."

Interesting reading, and my first indepth reading on the subject which happened when I was researching info for hunting boolits for the .44 mag., back some years ago.

By the way, if you are in contact with Veral, don't call bullets, "boolits" as it twists the crusty Ol'coot's tail [smilie=w:

If your go to the Graybeard Outdoors forums, Veral has a section in the reloading and bullet casting part of the forum, where you can post questions for him to answer.

He may, like me, be crusty, but he makes fine molds.

If you can make contact with Bruce - Babore - here on this forum, he is really great and helpful to provide been there and done that info.

There are others also, it is just that I have talked with Bruce when he was still making his great molds.

I hope that some other and more experienced shooter with chime in with info that pertains to your caliber, and I will follow their posting with interest.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[303Guy]

Thanks. OK, so I have a mold with a poor nose shape that needs fixing. The nose is too long due to the profile error and it's a little difficult to fix. But, I can permanently adjust the meplat making it closer to nose shank diameter and shortening the unsupported nose at the same time. I would assume that accuracy will not be affected much, if at all. The meplat would end up at 93% nose shank diameter. That would solve the nose slump problem I'm having with the nose being only .06 long.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Your beyond me 303guy.

Keep us posted as to how things work out for you and what your solution/outcome is.

And oh yes, results on critters!

CDOC

[milkman]

303guy
I have no experience with 303 or .30 cal, but a 70 -80% meplat in 35 Whelen or 35 Rem both work like a charm on Arkansas deer, exiting both sides even after heavy bone hits. Longest shot has been about 80 yd because of the heavy cover here.
Milkman

[runfiverun]

peter:
here is my favorite 30 cal hunting boolit.
the pic is a little off on the nose but you'll get the idea.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/13808

[303Guy]

Thanks Guys. Well, as much as I think the 35 is the ultimate small bore I don't have one - yet. If that 30 cal boolit works for you then my semi-cylinder boolit should be OK for me.

I just returned from a pig hunt and oh boy, are there pigs! Only found their diggings and last nights poo but that was all we were looking for this morning. My piggy gun is not ready (no ammo and not sighted in yet) so my two-groove stand in is ready and accurate as hell. With j-words - hence my reference to hell. :roll:

I'll be casting up some of those humongous flat noses I mentioned soon and hopefully will have the gun ready for when we do come across a pig.

This the boolit.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN004.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Untitled-6.jpg

[Cmasailor]

to be honest I haven't taken any big game. many that know me would be surprised at this. But, from the experimenting with 22lr nose forming dies on ground squirrels at ranges between 50 and 100yrds I can honestly say it doesn't really matter what distance it is a RN 22lr is just going to skoot right on through a squirrel and leave em crawling for their hole while you eject and ram another in to battery and do it again... Having a FN formed on my 22lr ammo has made leaps and bounds of difference in accuracy and performance. even at long distance they thump hard when RN and even HPs that look like RNs just pass through.

while it may be just a 22 that Im talking from experience with on killing game... it seems to say something.

[badbob454]

Once upon a time , a friend and i were in a 22 rimfire competition we were shooting one stalk of grass... anyhoo we shot and hit it several times it would not cut so i swapped out to a flatnose bullet (on a 22 rimfire ) next time i hit it it fell in half , now i think of muscle tissue as a group of strands of meat ,kinda similar to a bunch or a bundle of grass ,, a flat nose will tear through the muscle and tissue whereas a round nose will push the muscle strands apart not tearing it as much , thus less destruction, conclusion flat nose destroys tissue in its path a round nose will destroy only the tissue it cannot push aside . this is why a 9 mm is not a very effective handgun cartridge .. unless it is firing a flatt or hollow point

[303Guy]

Having a FN formed on my 22lr ammo has made leaps and bounds of difference in accuracy and performance.Accuracy too? I like the sound of that.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

AS said, I must defer to others on the use of small calibers for hunting.

Read about it and understand that there is some success possible.

However, when I was prepairing to make the leap into cast boolit hunting, I personally considered the .35 caliber to be the minimum dia. that I would possibly have confidence in.

Reason ------------ Well with the slower velocities I would be shooting, and the fact that expansion would be questionable at best, it just seemed to me that I needed to begin the hunt with an already expanded boolit such as those in the larger calibers shooting a boolit with a WFN.

Yes, I know some folk shoot hollow points, and some go to the effort of making soft nose cast boolits, but again, the results are questionable at best.

Many years went by before a relyable, "J" boolit was developed. Something that would not over expand or blow up at close range or fail to expand at all at long range. The Nosler Partition being one of the first really successful and relyable boolits in that direction.

So, I think the .35 or .375 would both be good possibilities, and the .444 is already a well proved platform with the first two calibers providing greater down range oppertunity.

But looking back at how long it had been since I made any shot at a game animal at a distance beyond the reasonable use of a 45/70, that is the direction I chose to take.

Not right for everyone, but it is ringing my bell and I don't need to deal with any iffy expanding or self distructing boolit issues as my boolit is already expanded when it gets to the job site.

As said earlier, following the posts with interest.

CDOC

[sixshot]

I've used cast bullets for hunting for 45 years & they have always worked, I've never lost an animal & that includes deer, feral hogs, javelina, antelope, lion, bears, elk, moose & African game, they always work. Also hundreds of small critters.
That big flat nose hits extremely hard, penetrates straight & deep & always gives me an exit. 90% of the game has been taken at 1000-1200 fps, some were slower & a few were faster but I didn't see much difference in any of my sixguns.
I have also taken many head of game with softnose cast & they work great, really can't agree at all with the comment about them being "marginal at best". Using cast hollowpoints can be a little more tricky but they also work great if you use the correct alloy for the velocity you are getting. They will not work as advertised if you are using a hard alloy & low velocity. I've always recommended a 70-30 mix (70 % WW & 30% pure lead) for a velocity of 1000 fps, if you go up or down from this just change the ratio 10%, that is, if you want 900 fps, change to 60-40, if you go up to 1100 fps change it to 80-20, etc. its worked for me for many years.
Really there is no finer hunting bullet in a sixgun that a softnose cast, it can be anything you want it to be, just decide on the velocity you want & then do a little experimenting with the amount of pure lead you will bond to the water quenched rear & you will get results beyond anything you've ever shot before, either cast or jacketed, true story.

Dick

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Dick!

I like to hear the real hands on accounts.

I think your thoughts and experience are likey right on with what sounds to be your handgun experience, but when the ranges get extended as when hunting with a rifle, that is when I see expanding cast boolits becoming unrelyable or greatly variable in results.

The difference being the much larger difference in velocity in a critter taken at 50 yds or so and one taken at 200 or more.

I doubt there is any magic way to make and expanding cast boolit do the same job at 50yds or less and again at 200 or more. Outside that is, from having on hand a number of cartridges, some with boolits made for 50yds and under, some for 50 - 75yds, some for 75 - 100yds etc. etc.

As said earlier, it took years for that to be reasonably prefected in "J" boolits.

Guess, that factor is why I buy into the non expanding WFN boolit. At this point it sure seems to be working.

CDOC

[waksupi]

The longest shot I ever took on a deer, was 225 yards. I didn't think it was quite that far, as I usually limit myself to 200 yards. I was happy to see the bullet performance from the .358 was quite good, and I doubt there was any expansion to speak of.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/album.php?albumid=181&pictureid=1065

[Whitworth]

I don't remember the source, but it was said a wound channel over 1.5" is a slower killer than a smaller one. The idea is, a smaller wound channel tends to bleed faster, to clean the wound out. The larger channels cause a muscle reaction to gather itself together, restricting the blood flow, resulting in slower kills. Wound channels with my .358 Win. in elk pretty well follow this size channel, according to the exit wound. Internal damage to organs tends to be quite a bit more. They bleed out so fast inside that although there is a good blood trail, it isn't massive, as all the blood is in the chest cavity. I can not recall an elk going over 35 yards after a good lung shot with a cast bullet, and the one that went that far rolled down the mountain half that distance.
Click on my name, and look at my album. Aside from the archery and shotgun kills, the rest were with flat nosed cast bullets. The pictures are not all inclusive of the kills I've used them for.

I think it was Veral Smith.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Whitworth,

I just did a quick scan of Veral's third addition of his "jacketed Proformance with Cast Bullets book, and while I did not find any quote which matches up with the above info, Veral does indicate that a huge or bigger wound channel is not really better, and in fact as is pointed pointed out is not as good as the long wound channel of a smaller dia.

The info refered to is likely there, I just didn't take the time to find it.

He does however in the small portion which I just scanned, make it clear that his tests and the results of those who have been in contact with him, points out the results which the last two posts indicate. Bigger is not better.

Later on in his book, he points out possible problems with expanding cast bullets (Veral doesn't like, "boolits") in that because of the properties of the alloy, the metal forming the mushroom is very likely to shear off, leaving a lighter and muzzle dia boolit which because of the weight loss may not give the long wound channel of a non-expanding WFN boolit.

Veral's book is a very interesting read, and something worth buying by cast boolit hunters.

CDOC

[sixshot]

You can't really compare the cast bullet performance from a sixgun to the performance of a 22-24 inch barreled rifle because of the huge edge in velocity. But a pure soft nose is going to give some expansion at about any velocity down to the point you could almost catch it with your hand.
Many people haven't tried softnose cast so they really don't have an understanding as to how well they work. A lot of big game has been taken with pure lead bullets (several million buffalo comes to mind) & I'm sure many of those bullets were going quite slow by the time they impacted.
Todays bullet caster can add or subtract how much pure lead they want/need & you will get great expansion, much like a Nosler Partition, then the nose usually shears off, but the damage is already done. Then the back portion continues on to leave the deep wound channel all of us want & expect with good cast bullets.
If my softnose cast slugs are shooting completely through both shoulders of large deer, bear, elk, bull moose & african game I'm not sure how much more I can expect the bullet to do.
This bull moose was taken with a 230 gr softnose cast from a Ruger 41 magnum, the bull was facing us straight on & the penetration was about 4 feet! One shot.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_0965-1.jpg
This is a very large cow elk, I took her with my Bisley 41 maggie & a 250 gr softnose cast at 74 yds, the bullet busted both shoulders & exited, she never took a step. I've taken 25 elk, 11 were with revolvers & cast bullets except for one with a 270 gr Speer Gold Dot, none of them traveled more than 50 yds.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_2228-7.jpg
This is the lungs after the softnose blasted its way through.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_2230-4.jpg
One of 3 Warthogs taken in South Arica, this one with my Freedom Arms 475 & a 370 gr cast.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/015_15-4.jpg
My largest (6' 9") of 6 bears, this one with my 10" Ruger 44 maggie & a 250 gr softnose cast, complete penetration.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1398-7.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1428-20.jpg
Took this bull moose with my Ruger SRH 480 & a 370 gr softnose cast, offhand at 45 yds, one shot with complete penetration.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/moose-11.jpg
If a softnose cast is giving complete penetration on deer, elk, bear & moose how can you improve the design. In 2008 I took 11 animals with sixguns & cast bullets , some were with solids & some were with softnose, they all worked....the softnose works best.

Dick

[Whitworth]

Indeed, Dick! But when you're starting out at .510-inch, who needs expansion? :bigsmyl2:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1010657.jpg

[JJC]

[QUOTE=waksupi;1684193]I don't remember the source, but it was said a wound channel over 1.5" is a slower killer than a smaller one. The idea is, a smaller wound channel tends to bleed faster, to clean the wound out. The larger channels cause a muscle reaction to gather itself together, restricting the blood flow, resulting in slower kills.


Veral Smith has a formula that seems to work in the real world, not just on paper.

He writes: "My displacement velocity formula is: Velocity times meplat width in thousandths of an inch divided by 4. Ideal DV range for big game is 100 to 125, 130 at the very max for fastest kills. At 100, wound diameter will average about 1 inch, at 125 it will be around 1 1/4 inch. If the wound diameter is 1 1/2 inch or larger in diameter the animal will normally run like it's tail is afire for 50 to 150 yards before expiring, though the shot is centered in the vitals. Yes even with a 4 inch diameter exit wound on a deer. Many will drop instantly with large wounds, if nerve shock anchors them, but many will run violently because blood flow is slowed by too large a wound. If wound diameter is 3/4 inch, about 85 DV, kills can be instant if well placed but some run can be expected. With a 70 DV, wounds will be about 1/2 to 5/8 inch. VERY deadly if well placed in the vitals, but some run is quite certain."

[JJC]

The picture in post #7 had a DV of about 133. The deer fumbled around and went down. I have been wondering about this till I came across the article. John

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

For those who may be interested, Veral can be contacted under the cast bullet section on GrayBeard Outdoors forum.

Or by the following info. Phone (208) 267-3588

Lead Bullet Technology
HCR 62 Box 145
Moyie Springs, Idaho 83845

CDOC

[emrah]

Can we PLEASE stop talking about "energy" and "energy transfer"? THERE IS NO SUCH THING. NONE. MYTH. MANY TIMES DEBUNKED. The very first thing I do when I'm reading posts and I see a reference to "energy transfer" is roll my eyes and click on to the next thread. I especially see it in self defense forums for the "energy" of handgun bullets. I see it in rifle and hunting forums. It's NONSENSE. If anyone did any REAL research they'd find that energy - even from rifle velocities is meaningless.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=19467
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

You poke a hole through something, it does tissue damage from the wound channel, the thing bleeds, lowers blood pressure, the brain goes into shock and it dies. Period. All the nonsense on forums and so-called "reputable" magazines (especially agregious in my opinion as these so-called "professionals" perpetuate the myth with their energy tables and graphs) is just that: nonsense. Garbage.

And what's worse is most people do not understand HOW these ammo companies (who's job it is to sell the latest and greatest super-whizz-bang cartridge) come up with these energy numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

Changing a little velocity (because it is squared) drastically changes the final "energy" number. Anyway, not to thread jack and I'm sure I'll get flamed, but I just couldn't keep quite. It's like the "Earth is flat" thing to me.

Emrah

[Whitworth]

Can we PLEASE stop talking about "energy" and "energy transfer"? THERE IS NO SUCH THING. NONE. MYTH. MANY TIMES DEBUNKED. The very first thing I do when I'm reading posts and I see a reference to "energy transfer" is roll my eyes and click on to the next thread. I especially see it in self defense forums for the "energy" of handgun bullets. I see it in rifle and hunting forums. It's NONSENSE. If anyone did any REAL research they'd find that energy - even from rifle velocities is meaningless.

Emrah


I do the same thing. Energy is a marketing tool for ammunition manufacturers.

[sixshot]

Couldn't agree more. A 22-250 has more "paper" energy than a 44 maggie & I know a 22-250 will take a deer but when you move up a bit to maybe something the size of Whitworths moose then size matters, not energy.

Dick

[JDL]

I looked at my journal and found an entry dated 11/30/02 in which I described the results of having taken a doe that morning:
8:05A.M., shot a doe at about 50 yards and she did a 50 yard sprint to death. Almost directly broadside, cut 7th rib on entry and 6th rib on exit. Extensive damage to lungs, 2"-2 1/2" wounds and exit on skin was 2". Load was: .300 Savage; 31141 (15 BHN); 44 grains of H-4831 for almost 2100 fps.
I have never recovered one of these from a deer but, then again I always try to place the boolit just behind the shoulder and broadside shots. I wouldn't hesitate to do the same if an elk should appear while I had this combo in my hands if the conditions were right. This is a good load in my old '99.:-)

[303Guy]

All true, but it does take energy for the bullet/boolit to do the required damage.

To me, a boolit should create a small permanent cavity in the form of a long wound channel but at the same time create a small temporary cavity because the temporary cavity absorbs a lot of the boolits energy and does no damage, i.e. reduces the effectiveness of the boolit. The trick is to use a bigger, heavier and slower boolit with a flat nose. I'm not concerned about the energy, I want momentum - lots of it. Mind you, a high energy 22-250 does do things to small critters that is amazing! Like disembowelling a goat from a chest shot!

A curious thing is how multiple simultaneous hits as from a shotgun will kill sometimes a critter instantly with no lethal wounds. No bleeding out, no bruising no disruption to the central nervous system - nothing! So why'd it die? It sure as hell wasn't from 'energy transfer'.

A knife or broad head arrow doesn't take as much energy to do the required damage because they are sharp and cut through the flesh.

[Cmasailor]

Accuracy too? I like the sound of that.

Yeah the Neal B Waltz dies are great, forming the nose is really just a side effect of bumping up and uniforming the diameters of the 22lr ammo so they're more consistent, I choose to do so with the Flat nose die insert. it also comes with a hp pin

And with the energy transfer argument... real or nor real a flat point lead boolit makes a bigger exit hole in a 4x4 than a RN, from 22 to 45 cal

[TXGunNut]

I'm still pretty sure energy transfer is very important. It's just that we don't need tons of energy to do the job at hand, the physics of transfer is difficult to understand and is affected by variables that can't be duplicated under lab conditions. Any bullet that makes a nice hole going in and another going out with a path thru a vital zone has done all I can ask of it, regardless of whether I launched it @ 900 or 2700 fps. The flaw in high energy "killing" rounds is that the easiest way to gain "energy" is to increase velocity, and that's simply not necessary or often even helpful unless shooting at distant targets or thru barriers. JMHO, of course.

[lead chucker]

I got a 308 win and am pushing a 311299 at average 1770 fps with real good accuracy. The bullet has a shallow hp so it's kind of like a flat point and a hollow point all in one. Any way was looking to see if any one here is hunting deer and black bear with a 200 gr bullet at this velocity out to 200 yards. I would think you would get a complete pass through with a behind the shoulder shot on ether species. What do you guys think. Also my BHN in 14-15. 200 yards is about all the further I would usually shoot.

[lead chucker]

Sorry accidentally replied to this post was meaning to start a new thread.

[303Guy]

Once upon a time I designed an fmj cup nosed bullet for a low power pistol specifically to cut through clothing with less loss of energy and hopefully work as a flat nose in a human torso. (A more powerful pistol tended to stay in the safe on social outings, making it useless for defence - what world!) The same principle with a shallow hollow nose might still be applicable for cutting through tough hide leaving more 'energy' for penetration and tissue damage inside the critter.

[1Shirt]

Years ago I had someone make a comparison of a needle being driven thru flesh fairly fast compaired to something big and flat like a Kieth boolit. Have always remembered that compairson, seems to me to be an obvious conclusion.
1Shirt!

[pmer]

Being new to using cast bullets I just want to ask. Do flat point cast bullets kill deer better?


I'm recent to casting and am having great luck with flat points. If you look at my signature. The ML was hard cast with 2 pellets of triple 7. Colt handgun was under 900 FPS. 44 hand gun was at mag velocity and Colt rifle was mag velocity too.

Heck the Colt lever action rifle still amazes me. Because of the deers angle and me having a terrible case of buck fever, I had to freeze and wait for him to go by while it kept looking at me.

Without ANY HOLES in the rib cage he ran 100 yards or more and fell. In under the shoulder and out the lower middle of the neck. I thought he was at a better angle for the shot or maybe it veered left but the flat point still took care of business.

[pmer]

I'm still pretty sure energy transfer is very important. It's just that we don't need tons of energy to do the job at hand, the physics of transfer is difficult to understand and is affected by variables that can't be duplicated under lab conditions. Any bullet that makes a nice hole going in and another going out with a path thru a vital zone has done all I can ask of it, regardless of whether I launched it @ 900 or 2700 fps. The flaw in high energy "killing" rounds is that the easiest way to gain "energy" is to increase velocity, and that's simply not necessary or often even helpful unless shooting at distant targets or thru barriers. JMHO, of course.

There are other ways to quantify boolit performance too like Taylor Knock Out and Thornly. I don't know Thornly but I'm comfortable using TKO.

I think TKO backs up what I see in the field more so than muzzle energy. I've seen 30 cal 150 grain jacketed bullets not reach the vitals on a deer when shot from behind yet there are many accounts of diagnal pass through with WFN and SWC etc.

[happyhunter]

I don't know much about flat points. I hope to find out this fall:p I do know some about math. And energy dump is about math and numbers right????

Energy dump is equal to the energy the bullet had on impact minus the energy it had when it exited. If there is no exit wound then all the energy was deposited in the critter.

So, lets talk about a 44 Mag that has 750 ft lbs of energy from a handgun. And a
22-250 has about 1700 ft lbs from a rifle barrel. (Muzzle energies from the Winchester website.)

If the 22-250 only penetrates about 10 inches and stays in the critter it has transferred all of it's available energy to the critter. The 44 goes all the way thru and exits with a velocity and mass that could be used to calculate it's exit energy. The 44 mag would have deposited (750 - exit energy) into the critter.

The 44 deposited less than 750 ft lbs. The 22-250 deposited all of its 1700 ft lbs. With out a doubt the 22-250 deposited more energy into the critter. Great right?

So which bullet actually caused more damage? Damage to organs is what counts. If the organs are deep the 22-250 may not reach them. The biggest assumption that energy transfer makes is to assume that more energy deposited equals more damage to the critter and that is not always true. A wound that is shallow probably is not as good as a deep wound.

On the other hand a bullet that passes thru with a small wound path would be pretty lousy too. The flat point bullets from what I have read do open up a much better wound than a round nose or pointy FMJ.

HH

PS and don't even get me started on shock.....

[waksupi]

I got a 308 win and am pushing a 311299 at average 1770 fps with real good accuracy. The bullet has a shallow hp so it's kind of like a flat point and a hollow point all in one. Any way was looking to see if any one here is hunting deer and black bear with a 200 gr bullet at this velocity out to 200 yards. I would think you would get a complete pass through with a behind the shoulder shot on ether species. What do you guys think. Also my BHN in 14-15. 200 yards is about all the further I would usually shoot.

If you hit it right, it will die!

[TXGunNut]

There are other ways to quantify boolit performance too like Taylor Knock Out and Thornly. I don't know Thornly but I'm comfortable using TKO.

I think TKO backs up what I see in the field more so than muzzle energy. I've seen 30 cal 150 grain jacketed bullets not reach the vitals on a deer when shot from behind yet there are many accounts of diagnal pass through with WFN and SWC etc.

Not familiar with Thornly but have read about Taylor's work and will review it. You hunt bigger critters than I do so bullet performance is more important to you, for me it's more about shot placement with a reasonable boolit and 400-500 ft/lbs of energy.

[pmer]

I suppose any of these mathmatical formula is born of a way to compare one load to another. But the energy dump method won't always put blood on your knife either.

If a deer runs with one small hole going in and no exit hole and it disappears in the brush you might have a hard time finding it. Then add 200 or 300 yards and was it standing here or there when I fired...

Now I'm going throw in my own quirky commom sense in... A tractor that makes 300 ft lbs of torque can dig two big holes in the dirt with its tires. Why won't a bullet exploding with 1700 ft lbs of energy open up the side of a deer? :kidding:

[pilot]

The mechanism of death is more than "energy dump" and "wound channel". You poke a hole in both lungs of an animal and you get what is called a pneumothorax. Also called collapsed lungs. They are no longer working. No more oxygen to the blood. The critter dies. In short order. If you also puncture the heart, it stops moving blood. The lack of blood to the brain causes bad things to happen to that, too. Both together make short work of any critter.

Sure, a big hole is somewhat better than a small one, but a small one will do.

[303Guy]

I'm watching all this. My theory is a long/deep wound channel of moderate size is more reliable than a larger but shorter one.

My 'vast' experience with lead boolits is with a 22. The round nose can kill but in general, things run much further and often take follow up shots to anchor. Hollow noses work great. But after a few hundred dead critters a pattern emerges, namely that on one day critters just die on the spot and on other days they fight like hell to stay alive! Then sometimes one will protest with a very fatal shot while another hasn't even got the time to close its eyes. But one thing's for sure, the harder you hit 'em the quicker they expire, as in overkill with a varmint round.

My only big red deer would have gone a long way if there was no fence to stop him. He was hit too hard to make that otherwise easy step over fence thing that deer do. There was no external bleeding even though he had two holes in him. Plenty internal bleeding though. I could have lost him - for a long while at least.