Are there any .358 Hawkeyes out there yet?

[Marlin Junky]

I'd like to get an idea of the .358 Hawkeye's internal dimensions before ordering one. You know, bore/groove diameter, throat length, etc.

MJ

P.S. Also, does anyone have a 336 XLR in .35 Remington yet?

[RugerFan]

I'd like to get an idea of the .358 Hawkeye's internal dimensions before ordering one. You know, bore/groove diameter, throat length, etc.

MJ

P.S. Also, does anyone have a 336 XLR in .35 Remington yet?

I have a new .358 Ruger Hawkeye. I'm currently in the process of doing the barrel break-in. I've never done a chamber casting, but I'll try to figure it out and post the results soon.

[RugerFan]

I just happened to have some fishing sinkers that were slighter over bore (.365"). They do seem to slug right at .358" (I did it 4 times). I'll need some time for the throat data.

Inexplicably I did notice a slight restriction at the muzzle. Maybe some fire lapping will be in order. I'll give accuracy reports in the coming weeks.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I fancy one of the 375 Rugers :D

[Marlin Junky]

I just happened to have some fishing sinkers that were slighter over bore (.365"). They do seem to slug right at .358" (I did it 4 times). I'll need some time for the throat data.

RugerFan,

Thanks for the input. As far as the throat is concerned, just seat a boolit long and chamber the round to finish the seat. Do you have a digital camera?

MJ

[RugerFan]

RugerFan,

Thanks for the input. As far as the throat is concerned, just seat a boolit long and chamber the round to finish the seat. Do you have a digital camera?

MJ

Ok, using a Lyman 358315 and new .358 Win brass I did as you said. The OAL is 2.609". From what I can make out, there is .065" from the case mouth to the very top of the crimp groove.

I have a pic, but for some reason it won't upload. (19.2 kb jpg). I would have to e-mail it to you.

[Marlin Junky]

email it to marlinjunky@yahoo.com.

The round loaded to 2.609" functions through the magazine box, right? How long is the magzine box anyway?

Thanks,
MJ

[RugerFan]

email it to marlinjunky@yahoo.com.

The round loaded to 2.609" functions through the magazine box, right? How long is the magzine box anyway?

Thanks,
MJ

The box is 2.895". Yes, the round functioned/chambered fine from both left and right positions. E-mail sent.

[Marlin Junky]

RugerFan,

I got the picture. It looks like the Hawkeye has a little bit of throat there... that's good. What is the diameter of the forward driving band on that Lyman 358315 seated in the .358 case? 2.9" magazine box is also good. I think I may have to pick up one of those Hawkeyes.

Thanks for the help,
MJ

P.S. I forgot to ask... Does the Hawkeye use a blade type ejector found on the classic M98 or a plunger in the bolt face?

[RugerFan]

MJ,
The forward driving band is .359". The Hawkeye uses a blade type ejector. Glad I could be of some help.

[Marlin Junky]

RugerFan,

I found one for 544 bucks. Is that a good price?

MJ

[RugerFan]

RugerFan,

I found one for 544 bucks. Is that a good price?

MJ

Heck ya thats good! The cheapest quote I got was $553.00

[Marlin Junky]

I bought one... and some dies... and some brass... and a VX-II 1x4.

MJ

[RugerFan]

I bought one... and some dies... and some brass... and a VX-II 1x4.

MJ

Nice! I put a Bushnell 3200 Elite 3x9 (silver) on mine and still have some things coming in the mail (mold, gas checks, etc). We'll have to compare notes on loads n such. I have 3031 and 4064 on hand, so that's what I'll start with.

[Marlin Junky]

Nice! I put a Bushnell 3200 Elite 3x9 (silver) on mine and still have some things coming in the mail (mold, gas checks, etc). We'll have to compare notes on loads n such. I have 3031 and 4064 on hand, so that's what I'll start with.

I hope that mold is a SAECO 352! :mrgreen:

MJ

[RugerFan]

I hope that mold is a SAECO 352! :mrgreen:

MJ

No, but actually I was just bidding on one of those on eBay and didn't win. I'm waiting on a Lyman 358315. The bullet I used for the pic came from a batch I bought earlier. If I end up getting the Saeco, I'll be happy to send you some.

[Marlin Junky]

I'm glad you didn't win... buy a new one from Midway because SAECO just retooled for the 352 and the molds are coming out nicely. I'll probably get a second one after I recover from my recent spending binge. Of course, if you want to take a chance at getting screwed, there's always ebay.

MJ

P.S. If 352 shoots well from the .358 Hawkeye, I'll probably special order a 4-cavity 352.

[RugerFan]

MJ,
Are you find similar dimensions on your Hawkeye to those that I listed?

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
Are you find similar dimensions on your Hawkeye to those that I listed?

I'm currently domiciled in Kalifornia... I won't have my Hawkeye in hand for a couple weeks. I purchase mine online from a dealer in another county and just found out ATF won't allow him to receive driver licenses via fax anymore to start the 10 day waiting period; (yup, on bolt action rifles!) therefore, I've got to make 2, 80 mile round trips to get mine home.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I just finished giving my new .358 Hawkeye the once over and I'm getting a minimum groove diameter (I'm pushing the slug all the way through) of .3575". I appears to be a little snugger toward the muzzle, so I would guess it'll go at least .358" near the chamber. There is definitely no need for oversized molds with this shootin' iron. Before I run some SAECO 352's through it though, I need to smooth out rough edges on the feed rails and ramp. This baby has some real sharp edges that'll tear up boolits and brass and I'm also going to try to talk ruger into sending some more suitable scope rings. The rings that came with the Hawkeye are so high that there is a 1/4" clearance between the bolt handle and the scope eye piece.

One thing that is peculiar about this rifle, given Ruger's propensity for creating very strong guns, is the fact the basic M98 Mauser action, which the Hawkeye is patterned after, has a rear locking lug while the Ruger does not. I don't really know if three of the ol' Mauser lugs forms a stronger lock-up than the two lugs Ruger uses but I am surprised nonetheless.

MJ

[357maximum]

any updates?

I think one of these may follow me home soon....I had a very desirable special order only mould fall in my lap...and now I need a suitable rifle..

[Marlin Junky]

any updates?

I think one of these may follow me home soon....I had a very desirable special order only mould fall in my lap...and now I need a suitable rifle..

Mike,

PM sent... forgot to mention that the magazine box length seems to be ideal for the .358. I loaded a dummy with SAECO 352 seated with the gascheck even with the neck/shoulder junction and there's penty of room for a longer boolit. Seated as such, 352's crimp groove is outside the neck and the rifling just touches the ogive... the fit is good. This lil' gun looks like it'll handle 200 to 270 grain boolits nicely... assuming the 12" twist isn't too much for the shorties to handle... remember, I like softer boolits.

MJ

[RugerFan]

any updates?

I think one of these may follow me home soon....I had a very desirable special order only mould fall in my lap...and now I need a suitable rifle..

My testing is still in the early stages, but I’ll tell you where I’m at so far.

I bought 4 different types of bullets so I can test drive them before I buy the molds: 358315, LBT 220 LFN, RCBS-35-200, and 358009. The powders I’m playing with are H4895, IMR 3031, and IMR 4064. My target will be 2000-2200 FPS for hunting purposes. I had sold my ancient Chrony and will be ordering another from Midway this week (they are on sale now). That being the case, I can’t give velocities right now.

The accuracy leader so far is the LBT 220 LFN. Yesterday at 100 yds with 37 gns of H4895 I got a 5 shot group of 1.217" (4 were 0.769" with 3 overlapping). This is fairly typical for what I’m getting with the LBT bullets. I’m confident that with a little tweaking I can get consistent MOA. The RCBS-35-200 is a close second in accuracy with the 358315 and 358009 a distant 3rd and 4th respectively. Again my testing has only just begun. I’ll give updates as I find what this gun really likes.

[RugerFan]

MJ,
How is the SAECO 352 shooting?

[357maximum]

MJ,
How is the SAECO 352 shooting?

As far as I know MJ will not be able to post for a few more weeks.....just so you do not think he is being rude.

[rvpilot76]

We've got our 358 Stainless Hawkeyes for $529 here in North Idaho. Blued is the same price.

Kevin

[RugerFan]

As far as I know MJ will not be able to post for a few more weeks.....just so you do not think he is being rude.

Thanks for the info. Just curious how those feed and shoot. I got a RCBS-35-200 mold from Scrounger for a decent price that I'm casting with now. Also got a new Chrony Alpha to help in my load development. I just love playing with new toys :)

rvpilot76- That's definitely a good price. Cheaper than I have seen around here anyway.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
How is the SAECO 352 shooting?

Sorry my answer to your question is so late but as .357 MAXIMUM indicated, I've been away from my computer for an all too brief, 3 week "late-spring-break" in Sheridan.

I haven't had a chance to shoot SAECO 352 in my .358 Hawkeye yet but I've had excellent results in a '51 vintage 336 using AA2520 and DP-74. Too bad I can't find anymore of the latter 'cause I love this stuff.

Anyway, I've shot a few 5-shot groups at 75 yards w/ 352 using my old iron sighted 336 that are under 1.5" using max loads of 2520 and near max. loads of DP-74. Velocity is in the 1950 to 2100 fps range or a little better with DP-74 (24" 336A). When I finally get my .358 Hawkeye shooting, (it'll wear a 2x7 Nikon Monarch) I'll post some targets. In the mean time I don't have any reservation recommending SAECO 352 to anyone with a normal bore/groove diameter .35 caliber rifle. The target on the left is pretty typical of what the 56 year old 336A can do with SAECO at 1950 to 2100 fps. The target on the right kinda frustrated me until I discovered the front sight had shot loose. The load for the right hand target was 38.5 grains of DP-74 which has averaged 2089 fps for 20 rounds during March. The targets were actually shot with the black area at the top. They are rotated 90 deg. clockwise to record and file. When I cast for my generous grooved 336, I shim 352 to get an extra .001" on the rear driving band and GC shank.

MJ

P.S. At this point I can speculate that 352 will fit the .358 Hawkeye just fine because I have chambered a dummy round loaded with it in the Hawkeye.

[RugerFan]

Dang MJ, somehow I missed your reply. I plan on picking up a 352 mold eventually. Sounds like a good bullet. I haven't been to the range lately. The hogs are starting to move somewhat since we've gotten some rain, so I'm trying to put some more pork in the freezer. I'm using RCBS-35-200 and 39.0 grains of H4895 for now.

[Marlin Junky]

RugerFan,

The Hawkeye is operational and will see range time before the end of next week. Rounds will be loaded with 44 to 45 grains of DP-74 and SAECO 352 at three different hardness levels.

MJ

[RugerFan]

Natchez has .358 Win brass again:

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WBWSC358U

[Marlin Junky]

Natchez has .358 Win brass again:

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WBWSC358U

Yeah, I just picked up some.

BTW, 45 grains of DP-74 pushed SAECO 352 to 2300 fps with rather mild pressure but grouping is not happening. This week will be 40 rounds with copper patched boolits and lots of scrubbing with JB. Ten rounds of SAECO 352 with 44 grains of DP-74 will be the finale.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I don't know if the following means the Hawkeye is a candidate for firing lapping but it sure needs help. Please take a look:

The group of many shots was done with crummy Hornady 160FMJ's using two different charges of the equally crummy AA2230-C. The Hornady 160's "miked" .3565". A total of 40 rounds of copper patched boolits were fired today along with a lotta scrubbing with JB to remove the copper fouling before shooting the SAECO 352's which have performed well from my old Ballard 336 at over 2000 fps with about 38 grains of DP-74.

The really bad 5-shot groups were shot using SAECO 352 at 247 grains, sized in a .360" die then HT'd at 450F for 1 hour. This usually gets my WW alloy up to about 21 BHN a day after quenching. The charge was 44 grains of DP-74 which produced 2237 fps.

The last target was shot right after the one that precedes it.

Should I fire lap or am I wasting my time because of the 12" twist?

MJ

[9.3X62AL]

I doubt if twist rate is a problem--I run 270 grainers in my 9.3 at 1700-1900 FPS, twist is about 1:13.2" or thereabouts (3 turns/meter), and all goes well.

I would start some velocity trials--1600, 1700, 1800, and up until you see something go south all of a sudden.

[357maximum]

Personally I would load up 10 more identical groups of five, and keep shooting groups and letting cool between groups, it may be coming together, give the barrel a chance don, I see signs of possible tightening.

[RugerFan]

Ditto what Al said. I started all bullets at 1500-1600 fps and proceeded from there. The RCBS-35-200 had good accuracy with H4895 until I tried to creep up over 2000 fps. Groups went south quick. I'll try different bullet / powder / alloy combos and see what happens.

[BustemAgain]

MJ,
I noticed you mentioned the ridiculously high rings furnished on the Hawkeyes.
Ruger now has low rings available in the Stainless Hawkeye Matte finish. I received mine from Ruger on Monday and just finished mounting the scope on my 358 tonight. All you have to do is send in your high rear ring and they exchange it for a low. The medium ring that was used in the front is now used in the back.

I couldn't abide the high rings so my Hawkeye has sat idle since I bought it until now. Tomorrow I am going to sight her in and convert the 2 boxes of factory loads I have accumulated into once fired brass. Then I am going to start the cipherin and cussin required to get a first rate cast bullet big game load developed.

[Marlin Junky]

Personally I would load up 10 more identical groups of five, and keep shooting groups and letting cool between groups, it may be coming together, give the barrel a chance don, I see signs of possible tightening.

I think you're correct Mike. I looked at some targets I shot with the Hawkeye when it was brand new and they were even worse... ultra bad, even. I have a feeling the Ruger barrel will only get better with age but my impatience wants to get the break-in period over in one lapping session. Perhaps one day I'll be happy it has a 12" twist, but right now a 14" or 16" twist would definitely be more comforting.

I'm going to shoot a bunch more 160FMJ's at 2500 to 2600 fps, clean vigorously and continue to shoot the 44 grain charge of DP-74 with SAECO 352 next week.

Thanks,
MJ

P.S. This rifle was never intended to be a plinker. It was purchased for hunting big game with cast boolits.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
I noticed you mentioned the ridiculously high rings furnished on the Hawkeyes.
Ruger now has low rings available in the Stainless Hawkeye Matte finish.

Don't need 'em anymore. My matte black Nikon 2x7 Monarch is sitting perfectly on top of Ruger low/med blued rings. Bolt handle clearance is now right where it should be at about 1/8" and the blue rings look good on the matte black scope.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

MJ,

Wacky gun *%#! Twist rate %*^&#!

Look at your targets. They are screaming at you. Your hardness is too soft for what you are trying to do at this point for what ever the reason. Simple as that.

Could be bore condition. Could be your lube. Might be as simple as starting out with 5 or 10 @ 1200 fps jobs before you kick it. Could be too Big a diameter too. That's the advantage to bore rides. You don't HAVE TO choke.

But then again there are a bazillion other things that can't be diagnosed from my key board. You need the help that only Professor Gun and patience can diagnose.

So you might lap and not see any improvement. Wouldn't that be positive reinforcement to how you feel right now?

But at this point in time, they ain't hangin with the torture you are putting them through. Cut back. I'd say 1900 -2000 just guessing. So I would try @ 40 grains and see if you get improvement. If your powder won't burn at that pressure and I am not familiar with DP-74, then use a Magnum primer. Then just shoot it for awhile.

[Marlin Junky]

Bass,

I can certainly back down a bit on the DP-74 and I can even try a few RCBS 35-250's but BHN 21 metal should hold up fine with these charges. I've had good results with 38 grains of DP-74 behind SAECO 352 at BHN 14 in the old .35-336A and the velocity was over 2000 fps from its 24" barrel. At 44 grains in the .358, I'm getting soot on the outside of the case necks. I know that's not a very scientific method of determining pressure but I'm also shooting a pretty tight boolit which brings me to your "Could be too Big a diameter too" statement. Could you please explain the mechanics behind that. I wouldn't call .002" to .0025" over groove too fat. BTW, I couldn't find any fouling near the muzzle after 10 rounds of these 2200+ fps loads... I'm using a good lube, but no fouling at all (the bore is black, not gray) is a head scratcher. I have a feeling when Ruger pounded the warning label, etc. into the top of the barrel they may have created an internal restriction. I'm going to slug the barrel up to the stamp and compare the slug to one run all the way through the barrel from muzzle to breach. After which, I'll load some more rounds for next week.

MJ

BTW Bass, having never owned anything but a 16" twist .35, I've got to naturally suspect the fast twist. After all, Ruger is not building these rifles to satisfy bullet casters. I know a 12" works well in the .30 but when pushing boolits past 2200 fps in a .358, I'm in uncharted territory. Perhaps the combination of high speed and high rotation IS too much for a BHN 21 boolit. In that case, I'll probably never be able to hunt Wyoming with this rifle unless I use copper patched boolits.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I can certainly back down a bit on the DP-74 and I can even try a few RCBS 35-250's but BHN 21 metal should hold up fine with these charges. I've had good results with 38 grains of DP-74 behind SAECO 352 at BHN 14 in the old .35-336A and the velocity was over 2000 fps from its 24" barrel. At 44 grains in the .358, I'm getting soot on the outside of the case necks. I know that's not a very scientific method of determining pressure but I'm also shooting a pretty tight boolit which brings me to your "Could be too Big a diameter too" statement. Could you please explain the mechanics behind that. I wouldn't call .002" to .0025" over groove too fat. BTW, I couldn't find any fouling near the muzzle after 10 rounds of these 2200+ fps loads... I'm using a good lube, but no fouling at all (the bore is black, not gray) is a head scratcher. I have a feeling when Ruger pounded the warning label, etc. into the top of the barrel they may have created an internal restriction. I'm going to slug the barrel up to the stamp and compare the slug to one run all the way through the barrel from muzzle to breach. After which, I'll load some more rounds for next week.

MJ

BTW Bass, having never owned anything but a 16" twist .35, I've got to naturally suspect the fast twist. After all, Ruger is not building these rifles to satisfy bullet casters. I know a 12" works well in the .30 but when pushing boolits past 2200 fps in a .358, I'm in uncharted territory. Perhaps the combination of high speed and high rotation IS too much for a BHN 21 boolit. In that case, I'll probably never be able to hunt Wyoming with this rifle unless I use copper patched boolits.


MJ,

Many things. Have you measured the twist? Could be 11 or 13 for all we know. There are many factors that this could be and slugging could identify several.

Mechanics. A bore ride achieves it's guidance from the bore ride nose. Therefore, you only need be at bore diameter for the rest of it. The soot on the outside of your necks could be from no pressure or from trying to shove 10 pounds of something in a 5 pound bag. If it ever does.

But once you get to certain bullet weight and bore diameters, you can only generate velocity so far without generating the pressure. If you are getting 2200 fps, you ARE generating the pressure. My guess is @ 45,000. And just because powder burns one way in one case, you can't jump to the conclusion that it will do the same in another.

Slugging with lubricant will let you feel and measure everything. :grin: Cutting back will answer your diameter question some too.

[felix]

Ruger likes to use 4140 or equivalent, and even more exotic for the magnum pistol cylinders so they can get 6 shots instead of the customary 5 these monsters typically used in the past. It will take quite of few rounds to make that barrel behave, ,,, felix

[waksupi]

My 1-12 .358 likes a velocity around 2200, with the Bator heavy, 358009 clone. Keep in mind, once you reach this level, you are actually past any factory loading with lighter bullets. I don't believe there is much to be gained by trying for more speed. I know you can kill deer, elk, and bison at this velocity range, with the heavy bullets.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

Many things. Have you measured the twist? Could be 11 or 13 for all we know.

I've measured it at 12 and about a 1/4". If I say it is so, I know it first hand. I never speculate or use hearsay without qualifying it first.



The soot on the outside of your necks could be from no pressure or from trying to shove 10 pounds of something in a 5 pound bag.


There are other clues that tell me pressure is not way up there that a visual inspection with a digital caliper reveals. Also, DP-74 is significantly slower than AA2520. I've burned them both side by side in my .35-336 with the same boolit (SAECO 352) at 6 to 7 BHN less and the latter is at least 5% faster than the former. Granted I probably can't tell whether a load in a bolt gun is generating 45K vs. 40K but I've had good results with this boolit in the .35 Remington loaded to what I'd call maximum pressure in a 55 year old lever gun. I'll check for bore restrictions tomorrow night.

waksupi,

I'd like to fatten out the trajectory with a 250 grain boolit so 250 yard shots are reasonable. I'd probably be better served with a 16" twist Whelen because I'd like to try for big game performance at 2500 fps.

Felix,

I'll keep that in mind.

Thank you all... more after I check for bore restrictions.

MJ

[RugerFan]

Ruger likes to use 4140 or equivalent, and even more exotic for the magnum pistol cylinders so they can get 6 shots instead of the customary 5 these monsters typically used in the past. It will take quite of few rounds to make that barrel behave, ,,, felix

I remember reading in one of the gun rags something to that effect. The writer even stated that fire-lapping Ruger stainless guns can take up to 10 times more rounds than normal. I assume that could also translate into a longer break-in period as well.

My Hawkeye is progressing well enough. I haven't had much time lately to experiment, but trials so far are very encouraging.

[waksupi]

I'd like to fatten out the trajectory with a 250 grain boolit so 250 yard shots are reasonable. I'd probably be better served with a 16" twist Whelen because I'd like to try for big game performance at 2500 fps.

MJ

Take a look at your ballistics tables. Anything usable at all in trajectory, comes in around 300 fps increments. I recently shot mine at 375 yards. Worked good. Just covered the target with the front bead, aperture rear.

Point blank at 2180 fps, using my hunting loads, is 225. Since I won't shoot at an animal over 200, I have 25 wasted yards in trajectory.

Take it out, and do some off hand, and field position shooting. I'll bet the human factor comes in, before any other failure of accuracy.

Keep in mind, push a cast bullet too fast for big game use, and they will come apart.

[Bass Ackward]

There are other clues that tell me pressure is not way up there that a visual inspection with a digital caliper reveals. Also, DP-74 is significantly slower than AA2520. I've burned them both side by side in my .35-336 with the same boolit (SAECO 352) at 6 to 7 BHN less and the latter is at least 5% faster than the former. Granted I probably can't tell whether a load in a bolt gun is generating 45K vs. 40K but I've had good results with this boolit in the .35 Remington loaded to what I'd call maximum pressure in a 55 year old lever gun. I'll check for bore restrictions tomorrow night.


MJ


MJ,

The 308 family of cases are basically an improved case design. Straight sides and sharper shoulder. Powder burn rates are much faster in a case design of this type. And the advantages gained by case capacity in the 35 bore are relatively minor once you get to 35 Rem. So you end up needing much more case capacity if you intend on producing low pressure, higher velocity. Then of coarse, you need a longer barrel to burn it.

The 35 Remington is a very efficient cartridge, so little is gained above it for lead except for increases in bullet weight. In other words, the small case volume starts the bullet moving sooner and builds from the back evenly. Sort of like using the powder itself as a filler. In the 358, you may have to drop one or two IMR steps to achieve the same, slow start off levels even though it's a larger case.

That's why some like the taper and shoulder of the 06 family of cases better for cast. Powders burn more slowly in them and the taper more naturally holds the powder back against the primer. So the powder burns more from the back and you get less position sensitivity.

Your probably correct that your barrel has a little to do with it. My optimal diameter if I can reach the lands is .3595 with 14 BHN. I haven't ever shot harder bullets in it that I can recall but with all my other calibers, the harder I want my bullet, the smaller in diameter I go. That's my work for what it's worth.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
My optimal diameter if I can reach the lands is .3595 with 14 BHN. I haven't ever shot harder bullets in it that I can recall but with all my other calibers, the harder I want my bullet, the smaller in diameter I go.

Bass,

Are you talking about a barrel with .358" grooves?

I always thought if one can fill the throat as much as possible, (while allowing about .0005" of clearance between the neck O.D. and the chamber) the better off one is with repsect to shooting cast boolits accurately regardless of groove diameter. I was also under the impression that a BHN 21 boolit will produce less pressure behind it than a BHN 14 boolit (all else equal) due to less obturation (i.e., less friction) at the base. Frankly, I've never had the opportunity to shoot boolits .0020" to .0025" over groove diameter because all my lead shooting has been through old Marlins with generous grooves.

I think I need to stop f'ing around and buy some pressure equipment.

Thank you for your explanation of the .358 case vs. the .35R and .35W.

MJ

P.S. How did you manage to get a .3595" die? I purchased .359" and .360" dies for my Lyman 450 and the .359" die sizes to .3585" while the .360" die sizes to .3605".

[felix]

MJ, your suppositions are correct for initial loading trials. Start with the largest boolit and gradually go smaller to mate the boolit with the ignition. Or, change powders, seating distance, primers, etc. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

1. Are you talking about a barrel with .358" grooves?

2. I always thought if one can fill the throat as much as possible, (while allowing about .0005" of clearance between the neck O.D. and the chamber) the better off one is with repsect to shooting cast boolits accurately regardless of groove diameter.

3. I was also under the impression that a BHN 21 boolit will produce less pressure behind it than a BHN 14 boolit (all else equal) due to less obturation (i.e., less friction) at the base.

4. Thank you for your explanation of the .358 case vs. the .35R and .35W.

MJ

5. P.S. How did you manage to get a .3595" die? I purchased .359" and .360" dies for my Lyman 450 and the .359" die sizes to .3585" while the .360" die sizes to .3605".


MJ,

1. Yes. 358 grooves.

2. Well, you are not alone. Many people feel as you do. What's your throat angle? IF your throat is worn it is pretty shallow. The longer the taper, the easier to size. but if you have a new throat, oh boy.

If you have read me long enough, there are facts, and then there are results. If the two don't support each other then walk away from the fact. But after decades of trials in my rifles, choking offers the most flexibility for lower velocity loads, especially in rifles where you have to jump. It helps with guidance and alignment because a fat bullet will encounter metal faster than a small diameter. But it has NEVER produced the best accuracy if I can reach the lands and want to leave the cast zone. In 30 caliber which is the only one I have shot hard lead, my HV loads are sized .3095. My low velocity 311284 won't even clean up at .308! Shoots 1/2" if above 20 BHN.

3. Your impression may be true. Or it may not. Did you lead? If you didn't lead, then your lube prevented that kind of friction and both bullets probably had equal friction. But because you choked your bullet, you raised the initial pressure more with the 21 BHN bullet and caused gas loss around your case. So it can go both ways.

4. You are assuming I am correct. That is just my observation and theory. I have no proof to offer you.

5. For rifles, I use a .360 H&I die to lube. Then everything gets pushed through nose first sizers of smaller size. Some are Lee. If you buy a Lee .359 and use emery around a dowel rod, it takes about 2 revolutions to clean up the tool marks and you pick up an extra .0005. If you want more than that though, it can take awhile.

If you want to know what your gun feels, size some of those bullets to .3585 and then realize you are not only going down below that but trying to engrave rifling into it too and see if YOU feel a difference. Remember, the size die may have an even slower taper than your new throat that would increase this effect.

If you can feel a difference, then wouldn't you be changing ignition characteristics as Felix suggested? That DP-74 might be burning like something else entirely.

[felix]

Yes, you got proof, BA. Just change the operandi to plugging up a hole under water with a rubber stopper. The more you dive under water with the stopper, higher the slower-pressure becomes to push the rubber stopper into the hole. Now, instead, assume you are not going under water, but are going to let the water fall out of Niagra Falls by opening a gate to provide a much faster-pressure. How is that rubber stopper going to work now? Will the stopper get slammed out of the hole, having been placed there gently by your hand, before the hammer hit? It definitely will if not in that hole just perfectly. A smaller and harder stopper would more likely go throuh (or stop up the hole in this scenario) the hole perfectly. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Felix,

Well ....................... OK. Had to read that three times. Kept going back to the bath tub in my mind. Must be guilt.

But it seems so. The only thing I see as faith is if the powder burns faster and creates Naigra falls so to speak. In all the "improved" series of cartridges of equal case capacities I ever used, I always saw powder burn rates accelerated. But that is just my experience. Add to that a larger stopper (bullet) and you magnifiy the burn rate issue.


MJ,

Ric (Waksupi) (Translated means : Man who bow hunts without back-up gun.) can tell you a lot more about the 358 than I ever could.

I am going to guess that H-4831 or 7828 would work excellent with how you want to shoot that thing with that diameter and hardness. But that is a guess at this point.

[felix]

John, you got it 100 percent. Sharp shouldered cases do make the case smaller than it really is in terms of ignition. Sloping cases are by far the best for cast boolits and most especially if the case has a small neck diameter. Straight walled cases have the same effect as Ackley cases, but not as pronounced. Something else of interest which talks about "waves", my pet subject: http://atmizzou.missouri.edu/jul06/nanotechnology.htm
... felix

[Marlin Junky]

I couldn't find an obvious restriction under the Hawkeye's barrel stamping but it seems like the barrel gets looser, nearer the breach.

Hey RugerFan... what are you getting for minimum groove diameter? I'm getting .3570"-3575"!

Bass,

I'll try the .3585" die but I already hardened my boolits to BHN 21. I guess it won't hurt to size them from .3600" to .3585" now (with lube in the grooves). I know there are those who believe that will work soften them but that's bunk because during the Lee Hardness Test, one needs to file a generous flat area on the boolit in order to perform a test. Oh yeah, what makes you think I took #4 above as the undisputed truth? :-) I still appreciate YOUR ;-) exlanation though.

MJ

[RugerFan]

Hey RugerFan... what are you getting for minimum groove diameter? I'm getting .3570"-3575"!



I'll have to get back to you on that. I'll be in VA for 5 of the next 6 weeks and won't get to fondle the Hawkeye properly till Sept.

[BustemAgain]

MJ,
Any updates on your .358 Win Hawkeye? I managed to get to the range a couple of times last week with mine and so far results have been encouraging. Best results so far have been with SAECO 352 sized at .3585 in. These were cast of WW +2%Sn and water dropped. Favorite load so far is 44 gr. H-4350;FedGM210M Primer;2.665 in. OAL. Velocity is 1902 fps/SD:14.38. Three five shot groups at 100 yds averaged 1.227 in.
I started with ACWW at 40gr of H-4350 then 42 gr both of which averaged under 2 inches. At 44gr with ACWW groups opened up to 4.5 inches. Thats when I went to the water dropped variety. I am hoping accuracy maintains @ sub 2 inch as I continue to work up to my goal of 2100 FPS. I think I am going to run out of powder room with H-4350 at about 46-47grs. I believe that should have me somewhere near the velocity I am looking for.
I, like you, bought this rifle as a dedicated cast bullet hunting tool with certain velocity parameters in mind. Here's hoping we get there with accuracy to spare.:drinks:

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
Any updates on your .358 Win Hawkeye? I managed to get to the range a couple of times last week with mine and so far results have been encouraging. Best results so far have been with SAECO 352 sized at .3585 in. These were cast of WW +2%Sn and water dropped. Favorite load so far is 44 gr. H-4350;FedGM210M Primer;2.665 in. OAL. Velocity is 1902 fps/SD:14.38. Three five shot groups at 100 yds averaged 1.227 in.
I started with ACWW at 40gr of H-4350 then 42 gr both of which averaged under 2 inches. At 44gr with ACWW groups opened up to 4.5 inches. Thats when I went to the water dropped variety. I am hoping accuracy maintains @ sub 2 inch as I continue to work up to my goal of 2100 FPS. I think I am going to run out of powder room with H-4350 at about 46-47grs. I believe that should have me somewhere near the velocity I am looking for.
I, like you, bought this rifle as a dedicated cast bullet hunting tool with certain velocity parameters in mind. Here's hoping we get there with accuracy to spare.:drinks:

Thanks for the info Bustem. I plan to take the Hawkeye to the range this week. I tried to polish my .359" die so that it actually sizes at .359" but I don't think I accomplished much... boolits still size at .3585" on my digital caliper. I think my rounds are loaded with 43-44 grains of DP-74. I'm going to shoot a bunch more Hornady 160FMJ and clean well with JB before shooting the SAECO 352's. Targets will be posted in a few days.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

BustemAgain,

Here's what I came up with on Wednesday. After 40 rounds of copper patched and the application of much elbow grease to remove copper fouling, I shot the following 5-shot groups with SAECO#352 at 247 grains bare, sized .3585"-.3590" and HT's to BHN 20. The charge was 43.8 grains of DP-74. I'm going to save my DP-74 for the .35R and try my H-380 equivalent surplus powders in the .358. I was considering the use of DP-85 in the .358, but I've broken 2100 fps using a 24" 30-30 and obtained good accuracy while using softer than BHN 20 boolits that weigh approximately 200 grains with both lots of my "Special-Ball" (the H-380-like stuff). I was saving my 1-1/2 jugs of Special-Ball for shooting silhouette matches with my 30-30 but if/when I run out, I'll just bite the boolit and replace it with canistered H-380. There's probably not even enough room in the .358 case to break 2300 fps with SAECO 352 anyway.

The orange dot is 3/4" in diameter.

MJ

P.S. I decided to load 20 rounds with 44, 15 rounds w/ 45 and 15 rounds w/ 46 grains of Special Ball-3 (H380) for the range tomorrow. There's plenty of room in a Winchester case for 46 grains of Special Ball-3 and moving up to 47 grains shouldn't be a problem assuming we get better groups with the Special Ball. I partial quenched my boolits last Friday or Saturday and they registered 19 BHN on the second driving band (from the meplat) last night.