Ruger BH Problem turned Project

[newton]

Ok, so a few weeks back I posted a problem with my new - new model blackhawk. 45 colt/45 acp convertible.

I started the thread based on the issue with the hammer which was fixed and is working just great now.

However, before sending it off I did get to shoot it and saw there was going to be some work involved with getting a decent load for accuracy. I did slug the bore and throats and found they were fine. So based on that, it comes down to boolit, lube, and powder choices. But there were some more issues I saw that may help explain a little more.

The boolit I am using is a Lee 452-255-RF. At first I started with wcww and just LLA lube. Now I am doing a 50/50, pure lead/ww, air cooled. With that I made a home brew of some beeswax, petrolatum, palm wax, and a tiny bit of paraffin. I was getting a decent amount of leading before, now I am getting none.

I have been able to do some limited testing, but this is where I am at right now.

I am sticking with Unique seeing how I have a lot of it and its a proven powder for the cartridge. I have loaded the boolits with 8 grains and am getting horrible accuracy.

Then I switch over and load a little over 6 grains and get some real good accuracy. But, that is with leaving the boolits un-sized as they drop from the mold. With the boolits sized at .452 they don't shoot so well. With this load though, I am noticing a lot of blowback. And that leads me into my next part of investigation.

I have noticed the sizing die really works the brass down after it has been fired. I put a mic on them and fired they measure around .486, once through the sizer they measure .476. That's .010" difference. And that is the length of the case. I am not an expert, but that has to take a lot of energy to size the case to the chamber every single time.

I cannot just load the boolits in the fired cases because they are a tad too big. I could go up in size on the boolits, but I am not sure if that would solve the problems that much. The throats slugged at .4525" or so. They would just barely accept a .452" sized boolit through, and would not accept a un-sized boolit.

But what I have accomplished is by moving my de-caping rod all the way out to the very last point it will be held, I just size the case mouth down to the point of where the boolit seats. That leaves the rest of the case to chamber size. This has got to help. And I am thinking, I do not know yet (have not tried the new set up yet), that the un-sized boolit will actually swell out the case a little more anyways when fully seated and hopefully this will take 99% of the "looseness" out of the cartridge in the chamber.

What I am also thinking about is beagling the mold to see if a slightly larger boolit might help. But that's in the future.

What I also did was find a 9mm case and saw that with a little bit drilled out at the bottom it holds right at 8.5 grains of Unique.

So that's where I am at. I am going to load 12 of these tonight and see how they shoot. I really hope this all works. I am new to this, but I cannot see how .5 grains is going to make that much of a difference. And maybe I will not know for sure seeing how they will not be full length sized anyways. I hear a lot about going up to 9 grains, but I am not looking for a powerhouse load, just something with a little more oomph than the 6 grain load.

Thoughts? Ideas? Can there be a curve where a light load shoots good, then gets bad with mid-range loads, but comes back to shooting good with upper end loads?

One other thing I have noticed is that the forcing cone does seem to get a little lead around the edges. Not so much near the rifling, although it was gathering there before the new lube and boolit alloy. And when it did gather there, it was mainly at the 6 o'clock position, if that makes sense. I have not shot enough through to be definitive about anything yet.

[44man]

Make the boolits harder, WD WW metal and let them age a week.
Size and expand normally, the best dies now are Hornady.
You want case tension and that takes a harder boolit.
Neck sizing does work but eventually you will not be able to chamber them so full length will be needed again.
Make Felix lube, best in my opinion. You found LLA does lead the gun.
Lead on the cone or cylinder front means the boolit is slumping and lead is being forced out the gap. That is a good boolit so don't ruin it.
I try to tell everyone that the dies used are very important.
Fast powders need a harder boolit. You already have fit so I will be the last to tell you to use softer lead.

[newton]

Make the boolits harder, WD WW metal and let them age a week.
Size and expand normally, the best dies now are Hornady.
You want case tension and that takes a harder boolit.
Neck sizing does work but eventually you will not be able to chamber them so full length will be needed again.
Make Felix lube, best in my opinion. You found LLA does lead the gun.
Lead on the cone or cylinder front means the boolit is slumping and lead is being forced out the gap. That is a good boolit so don't ruin it.
I try to tell everyone that the dies used are very important.
Fast powders need a harder boolit. You already have fit so I will be the last to tell you to use softer lead.

Thanks for the advice. You really do not see anything wrong with the amount of free play between a sized case and the chamber diameter? I'll check the front of the cylinder for lead, never crossed my mind to check it although I do clean my gun after each outing and I cannot say I have seen any there. The lead is just on the "entrance" to forcing cone, not on the surface that is parallel to the cylinder face - if that makes sense.

I still have some WDWW so I can run a test with them.

I would love to see someones mic measurement on a sized case from another die set. I seem to find that actual specs vary on what the size of the round is, but its supposed to be right around .480". It seems that the die set would be fine at sizing them to .476", because .004" is not too extreme. However, when my brass literally falls out(it does not stick one bit) and measures at .486", then there is a significant difference.

I am wondering what Rugers specs are on chamber size, or if that is even an issue at all.

Next thought that comes to mind is boolit seating depth. Would it be beneficial to seat the boolit out to where it is slightly forced into the throat when chambering a round? Kind of like engaging the rifling with a bolt action rifle round? I did play around some with depth, and noticed I am right on the cusp of it being like that but then back in down in the case so it would not. But what if I were to bring it back out to where I just had to slightly apply pressure to the round when chambering it?

[newton]

Doing a little more research here I think I am on the right track. I really think I am having an issue with the chamber size versus boolit size. I know the boolit is sized correctly to the throat, but if the chamber is so much bigger than the boolit and case size together then I can see how the boolits could be started at different angles into the throat.

I am going to slug the chamber tonight and see just what I am looking at. But this makes even more sense with the lead I am seeing on the transition "strips"(little lines) between the chamber and throat.

Here is what I think happens;

The primer fires, forces the case to the chamber walls immediately, this in-turn allows a brief, but significant, amount of space around the base of the boolit before it enters the throat. There are two things I can see wrong with this.

1. It erodes some of the base away allowing gases to eat away thereafter.

2. It allows the boolit room to enter the throat at different angles, which again could effect its path down the barrel.

I am wondering if this could simply be remedied by a stiffer charge of powder which would seal the case and obturate the boolit at the same time, decreasing the potential for gases to erode the base of the boolit.

This kind of makes sense (to me) why the lower charges worked good. The lower charges had less impact to the base of the boolit and started it "easier" into the throat. I know its a long stretch, but I'm good at those.

Its all interesting to contemplate. I know that I will have to figure something out. I think slugging the chamber is the first place to start. If I can get a boolit large enough, but not too large, it might be the answer. I know my bore is right around .451", so I do not think I would want to go with anything above a .454" boolit. But it might take going that high to get what I want.

Also, I think that opening up my sizing die might help a little. Lots to consider here.

[Larry Gibson]

I load the .45 Colt for 2 revolvers (one of which I also have a "convertable" 45 ACP cylinder for), 2 rifles and a Contender. I have 3 sizers (Dillon, RCBS and Hornady) and all 3 size the cases to .468 - .470. After loading with a .452/.454 bullet they mic .474 +/- at the bullet. I shoot 2 "standard loads"; a Lee 200 RF over 7.3 gr Bullseye and a Lyman 260 gr over 8.5 gr of Unique. Of course the after fired size varies with the chamber it was fired in but mostly they run .478 - .482.

There is nothing wrong with your sizer. There is nothing wrong with your mould as 44man mentions. If 44man's suggestion of "harder" bullets doesn't work then try adding 2% tin to the WWs and then add 30-40% lead. That will strengthen yet soften the alloy. Most factory 45 Colt non cast bullets are soft at 6 - 8 BHN and the cast are at 15 - 17 BHN (the BHN of AC'd WWs + 2% tin). There is nothing wrong with your sizing your bullets at .452 - .454, if the cast that large. Beagling the mould to make it drop bullets larger than the throats will not help.

If you want to NS the cases simply deprime in a seperate step and back out the sizer so the cases are sized to the seating depth of the bullets. Frankly I, like 44man, doubt that will help or make any difference.

If the alloy change doesn't work then you already know the problem; "So based on that, it comes down to boolit, lube, and powder choices.". So, if the bullet is good (corrected with a better alloy or a "harder" one as your alloy has very, very little tin it it and probably is too "soft") and the powder is good (8.5 gr Unique is a classic load with that bullet and is a good choice) if you increase it to let the case obturate and seal the chambers. The blowback is causing a extreme variation in the gas pushing on the bullet. Then guess what? the lube may also be a problem. Try both the home brew and the LLA (applied as per the instructions, not "watered" down and let dry for several days) on the newer alloyed bullets.

Can I also ask; what is "horrible accuracy"? Do you shoot a comparable revolver with better accuracy?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

The primer fires, forces the case to the chamber walls immediately, this in-turn allows a brief, but significant, amount of space around the base of the boolit before it enters the throat. There are two things I can see wrong with this.

If you are getting "blow back" the case is not obturating (expanding to seall against the case walls). Besides, it takes about 7000 psi to expand the case so it obturates and seals against the case walls. It takes far less psi than that to push the bullet forward into the throats, even if your very soft bullet is over size. However, it is possible that some unwanted obturation (expansion) of the base of the bullet does occur before it gets moving. When the obturated (expanded or "rivited") base enters the throats it probably is no longer perpendicular or square to the axis of the chamber/throat/bore. That's why a change of alloy to a "harder" alloy is probably needed.

Also, since there is blow back and the case is not sealed against the chamber walls the gas is venting there. Once the bullet enters the forcing cone it does meet more resistence and probably slows down. More gas is vented out the barrel/cylinder gap and the base of that very soft bullet is probably somewhat obturated/expanded/riveted more before being forced into the barrel. This is what 44man means by (and is correct by); "Lead on the cone or cylinder front means the boolit is slumping and lead is being forced out the gap." Thus the base of the bullet is not square when forced into the barrel and certainly not square with the axis of the crown on exit from the barrel and inaccuracy is the result. The variation from the gas venting also contributes to inaccuracy. Lower powder charges only seemed to work simply because they were gentler on the base of that very soft bullet and there was less gas pressure and volume to cause additional damage to the base of the bullet.

Change the alloy, change the "hardness", change the load and perhaps, change the lube.

Try the NS'd cases if you must.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

I load the .45 Colt for 2 revolvers (one of which I also have a "convertable" 45 ACP cylinder for), 2 rifles and a Contender. I have 3 sizers (Dillon, RCBS and Hornady) and all 3 size the cases to .468 - .470. After loading with a .452/.454 bullet they mic .474 +/- at the bullet. I shoot 2 "standard loads"; a Lee 200 RF over 7.3 gr Bullseye and a Lyman 260 gr over 8.5 gr of Unique. Of course the after fired size varies with the chamber it was fired in but mostly they run .478 - .482.

There is nothing wrong with your sizer. There is nothing wrong with your mould as 44man mentions. If 44man's suggestion of "harder" bullets doesn't work then try adding 2% tin to the WWs and then add 30-40% lead. That will strengthen yet soften the alloy. Most factory 45 Colt non cast bullets are soft at 6 - 8 BHN and the cast are at 15 - 17 BHN (the BHN of AC'd WWs + 2% tin). There is nothing wrong with your sizing your bullets at .452 - .454, if the cast that large. Beagling the mould to make it drop bullets larger than the throats will not help.

If you want to NS the cases simply deprime in a seperate step and back out the sizer so the cases are sized to the seating depth of the bullets. Frankly I, like 44man, doubt that will help or make any difference.

If the alloy change doesn't work then you already know the problem; "So based on that, it comes down to boolit, lube, and powder choices.". So, if the bullet is good (corrected with a better alloy or a "harder" one as your alloy has very, very little tin it it and probably is too "soft") and the powder is good (8.5 gr Unique is a classic load with that bullet and is a good choice) if you increase it to let the case obturate and seal the chambers. The blowback is causing a extreme variation in the gas pushing on the bullet. Then guess what? the lube may also be a problem. Try both the home brew and the LLA (applied as per the instructions, not "watered" down and let dry for several days) on the newer alloyed bullets.

Can I also ask; what is "horrible accuracy"? Do you shoot a comparable revolver with better accuracy?

Larry Gibson

Thank you for your advice. I will not pretend to know anything about this world of reloading cast boolits. All I do is think out loud. I have tried the harder alloy, but only with LLA. And it was applied twice, and let dry for a few days. Those groups were around 8" or so at 25 yards.

The softer boolit with the new lube which is soft and fills the grooves, does not lead near as bad, but the groups were still 6" or so at 25 yards.

I can say for certainty. Absolute 100% certainty. That I made two 6 round test loads. The only difference between one set and the other was the size of the boolit. One I ran through the .452" sizer, the other I loaded straight from the mold(they have both been sitting around for a couple of weeks).

Those two were night and day in group size. The sized boolits did a 6" or so group, and the unsized boolits did a 3" or so group. I think I could even tweak the unsized load by simply practice, but the other issue I run into is the fact I want a little more of a load to hunt with. The good load is a pleasure to shoot, but I just do not feel comfortable hunting with it.

But what it does tell me is that the larger boolit makes a difference. Why? I have already guessed at that. But I know it does because I was very careful to make it the only variable.

And no, I do not have another revolver to compare my shooting too. I do not doubt at all that my shooting is 'lacking' to say the least. I know it will have to be worked on. But I can say for certainty that when in the matter of just a little bit I shoot 6 rounds and get one group, then immediately shoot 6 more and get a completely separate group, there must be something too it.

The main reason for opening up my die would simply to increase case life. There is no reason, that I could see, why I need to size my brass so much smaller than my chamber. I could see it if I were loading for multiple guns, but I am not. The other reason I could see it is if I did not want to change my boolit diameter, because it needs a smaller diameter case to hold it.

I am going to try the same scenario again with the same things except a stouter load of Unique. Maybe increasing it .5 to 1 grain will help.

I will also run the test over again with harder boolits.

But there is something to be said about the very large chamber diameter in this gun. And there is surprisingly a lot of talk about it going around.

[newton]

The primer fires, forces the case to the chamber walls immediately, this in-turn allows a brief, but significant, amount of space around the base of the boolit before it enters the throat. There are two things I can see wrong with this.

If you are getting "blow back" the case is not obturating (expanding to seall against the case walls). Besides, it takes about 7000 psi to expand the case so it obturates and seals against the case walls. It takes far less psi than that to push the bullet forward into the throats, even if your very soft bullet is over size. However, it is possible that some unwanted obturation (expansion) of the base of the bullet does occur before it gets moving. When the obturated (expanded or "rivited") base enters the throats it probably is no longer perpendicular or square to the axis of the chamber/throat/bore. That's why a change of alloy to a "harder" alloy is probably needed.

Also, since there is blow back and the case is not sealed against the chamber walls the gas is venting there. Once the bullet enters the forcing cone it does meet more resistence and probably slows down. More gas is vented out the barrel/cylinder gap and the base of that very soft bullet is probably somewhat obturated/expanded/riveted more before being forced into the barrel. This is what 44man means by (and is correct by); "Lead on the cone or cylinder front means the boolit is slumping and lead is being forced out the gap." Thus the base of the bullet is not square when forced into the barrel and certainly not square with the axis of the crown on exit from the barrel and inaccuracy is the result. The variation from the gas venting also contributes to inaccuracy. Lower powder charges only seemed to work simply because they were gentler on the base of that very soft bullet and there was less gas pressure and volume to cause additional damage to the base of the bullet.

Change the alloy, change the "hardness", change the load and perhaps, change the lube.

Try the NS'd cases if you must.

Larry Gibson

I thought what was meant by the "gap" was the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

I see what you are saying, and I am not disagreeing with you. I am just thinking this through.

All things seem to revolve(no pun intended) around a harder alloy. So a harder alloy will for sure be the thing to try.

[newton]

Ok. Now I am thinking again and some things just do not sound right here with some of the suggestions being given. So maybe it can be clarified for me.

First off, if the alloy was too soft then I would be seeing a lot of lead being deposited because of the erosion. I do not see this anymore with the new alloy and lube, just with the old (harder alloy) and lube.

Next, if the alloy is soft, then it should obturate easier. Either that, or its going to get eroded. But regardless the boolit has not completely exited the throat before entering the rifling. If the gases were venting out the cylinder/barrel gap because the boolit has slowed down, then there should be lead on those surfaces if the alloy is too soft and being eroded. Again, no lead is being found on those surfaces.

The blowback I am seeing is on the brass cases. Its not coming from the front of the cylinder back around to the rear. I understand why it is doing so, which is because of pressure not sealing. But I do not see the alloy being the cause of it. I see the cause from a too large chamber to case fit, along with a low enough charge that pressures are not increased rapidly enough to seal the case before some residue gets by.

This also points to the fact that the boolit has already left the case, or else the base would have limited the amount of gases getting by the case neck and then back down the sides. Again, all pointing to the case to chamber fit.

The only thing that does speak of too soft alloy is the lead that I see on the chamber/throat transition. However, I cannot say that it is much or completely lead being left there. I am going to do a thorough cleaning of it tonight to see what happens when shot again.

Please do not take this negatively, it just does not seem to be making sense to me on some of the suggestions and comments. I do not see how a large case to chamber fit will not have a significant impact on how the boolit starts into the throat. Who is to say that one side of the case is not a tad bit weaker, which would in turn expand outward sooner than the other side, which in turn would "loosen" its grip on the boolit on one side more so than the other.

This might still happen with tighter tolerances, but the effects would not be as dramatic as it is with the very loose fit that I am seeing in my chambers.

[newton]

Just real quick like also. A 22lr has a approximate chamber pressure of 20,000 of a standard load. They also have some pretty snappy powder behind them. But on top of this they are made out of some pretty soft lead.

I am not saying that a 22 never leads. Some do, but on the flip side, some do not. Why? Could we not see an example of tolerances being a key factor and not alloy type? I would be real curious to measure the cases of a 22 which was shot from a gun which does not lead hardly, and then one that leads like crazy. I would really have to wonder if you would not see a big difference is fired case size.

[runfiverun]

i'm watching this with interest.
i have one of these convertibles also.
unfortunately i am not having any of these problems and can be of no help.
i went straight to 8.5 grs of unique and ww's/soft- 75/25 as my alloy.
i am using my 452664,and 454424 molds at 452.
the 454424 is slightly more accurate but i am crimping over the front shoulder and not in the crimp groove [i may or may not try it in the groove] as my lever gun feeds them this way.

about the only difference here is i am getting a run at the throats.

[newton]

i'm watching this with interest.
i have one of these convertibles also.
unfortunately i am not having any of these problems and can be of no help.
i went straight to 8.5 grs of unique and ww's/soft- 75/25 as my alloy.
i am using my 452664,and 454424 molds at 452.
the 454424 is slightly more accurate but i am crimping over the front shoulder and not in the crimp groove [i may or may not try it in the groove] as my lever gun feeds them this way.

about the only difference here is i am getting a run at the throats.

I have thought about this also, and have read about it also. I know that in the jacketed world they say that a straight run at the throat/lands is preferred now days over trying to seat out close to them.

I had an issue with horrible accuracy out of a nephews .243. The throats were very, very long and I was not getting anywhere near them with any bullet I tried. Then I read about it and started actually seating them in past the shoulder. And sure enough it helped. Now, I have never cast the chambers on that rifle and have no idea of the actual free play in regards to chamber size and case size, which is where I think I am loosing at. I can say that I only neck size those rounds though.

But, there again, I have not jumped up to the 8.5 grain mark yet. I cannot see how .5 grains is going to make that much difference having tried 8 grains. But stranger things have happened to me. I'll be happy if it does.

Do me a favor, if you would, measure the diameter of some of your fired cases when you get a chance. I would be curious to see what they measure out to.

If nothing else, all of this gives me a good excuse to shoot more. haha.

[subsonic]

I have observed the same dimensional issues you list in my Ruger and RCBS dies.

Using STEEL dies instead of Carbide helps, as the only portion of the die that touches the case is the ring at the bottom on Carbide dies. This creates a case with parallel sides that doesn't fit a tapered chamber.

If the front driving band fits snug in the throat, it will align things. But with that particular boolit, you're not going to get that. Regardless, I would not sweat the dies.

I would be one more vote for harder/tougher alloy. Also, try some better lube.

It could be that your larger size boolits make the loaded case fit the chamber better, thus allowing for better alignment into the throats.

Just to humor me, make some ammo with 8gr of Unique and seat the boolits deep until they touch the powder. Crimp only enough to allow them to chamber (remove the bell). Shoot them loaded singly, because they may pull from recoil (doubt it).

Tell us how those shoot.

[newton]

I have observed the same dimensional issues you list in my Ruger and RCBS dies.

Using STEEL dies instead of Carbide helps, as the only portion of the die that touches the case is the ring at the bottom on Carbide dies. This creates a case with parallel sides that doesn't fit a tapered chamber.

If the front driving band fits snug in the throat, it will align things. But with that particular boolit, you're not going to get that. Regardless, I would not sweat the dies.

I would be one more vote for harder/tougher alloy. Also, try some better lube.

It could be that your larger size boolits make the loaded case fit the chamber better, thus allowing for better alignment into the throats.

Just to humor me, make some ammo with 8gr of Unique and seat the boolits deep until they touch the powder. Crimp only enough to allow them to chamber (remove the bell). Shoot them loaded singly, because they may pull from recoil (doubt it).

Tell us how those shoot.

Harder alloy...

Could be that they fit the chamber better. Which is one reason why I am contemplating a larger boolit.

The main reason to open the dies up would be to not work the brass so hard. That is my thoughts at least. But I figured it might help with the chamber also. Although its all for not if the bullet does not seat well. There are multiple things involved there.

There would be no point in crimping them. Thats the whole idea here. I have to size the brass a little to just allow the boolits(even unsized ones) to not fall in the cases. A crimp is just applied to hold. Other than that the round drops right in the chamber and can even wiggle around a little inside of it.

I'll humor you if you do not see any downsides to doing that. I can not say I have ever seated a boolit down that far in a case, but I cannot see where it would hurt?

[subsonic]

I have done it (deep seating) with no pressure signs (if anybody is scared of that) and the accuracy did improve significantly. I would not try it with a load that was already on the limit for the gun in question.

[Larry Gibson]

newton

I thought what was meant by the "gap" was the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone.
That is referred to as the "barrel/cylinder" gap.

I see what you are saying, and I am not disagreeing with you. I am just thinking this through.

No problem with thinking......just that a lot of your problems have already been thought through. It's good for you to get an understanding in any case.

All things seem to revolve(no pun intended) around a harder alloy. So a harder alloy will for sure be the thing to try.

Harder than your alloy for sure but the alloy does not need to be real hard. A good ternay alloy with a balance of tin and antimony with the lead and having a BHN in the 11 - 16 range should be quite sufficient. Add 2% tin to your COWWs and then add 30% lead for starters.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

newton

First off, if the alloy was too soft then I would be seeing a lot of lead being deposited because of the erosion. I do not see this anymore with the new alloy and lube, just with the old (harder alloy) and lube.

Probably more because of the lighter load you're now using. If you want a higher performing round you need a harder bullet. Your home brew may or may not be ok, only testing will tell.

Next, if the alloy is soft, then it should obturate easier. Either that, or its going to get eroded. But regardless the boolit has not completely exited the throat before entering the rifling. If the gases were venting out the cylinder/barrel gap because the boolit has slowed down, then there should be lead on those surfaces if the alloy is too soft and being eroded. Again, no lead is being found on those surfaces.

If you have a proper fit the bullet shouldn't obturate (expand) but should be swaged down to fit the throats and then the bore. Again, the load you are using is not even enough to obturate the cases and you get the "blow back". That's not enough to erode the bullet which is why it probably does well. The sized bullets offered little resistence in the throats and the gas probably really vented around the cases which is why accuracy suffered. You can save your self a lot of "thinking" by loading both sized and unsized bullets of the new alloy over 8.5 gr of Unique and testing 12 shots of each using a good rest at 25 yards.

The blowback I am seeing is on the brass cases. Its not coming from the front of the cylinder back around to the rear. I understand why it is doing so, which is because of pressure not sealing. But I do not see the alloy being the cause of it. I see the cause from a too large chamber to case fit, along with a low enough charge that pressures are not increased rapidly enough to seal the case before some residue gets by.

The alloy is not the cause, the cause is too little pressure to obturate (expand) the cases to seal the chambers. The gas is coming back from the base of the bullet around the unobturated cases.

This also points to the fact that the boolit has already left the case, or else the base would have limited the amount of gases getting by the case neck and then back down the sides. Again, all pointing to the case to chamber fit.

All revolvers with low psi loads have this problem. I have recently conducted an 1800+ round test of low end cowboy action loads in the .32 S&WL, the 32 H&R, the .38 SPL, the 357 Mag, the 44 Special, the 44 Mag, the 45 ACP, the 45 Shcofield and the 45 Colt. They all have gas blowback with such loads. There is nothing wrong with your dies and the way they are sizing the cases. There is nothing wrong with the way the sized cases fit the Ruger chambers.

The only thing that does speak of too soft alloy is the lead that I see on the chamber/throat transition. However, I cannot say that it is much or completely lead being left there. I am going to do a thorough cleaning of it tonight to see what happens when shot again.

That is also a very good indication, given the over sized bullets, that the lube really isn't doing it's job.

Please do not take this negatively, it just does not seem to be making sense to me on some of the suggestions and comments. I do not see how a large case to chamber fit will not have a significant impact on how the boolit starts into the throat. Who is to say that one side of the case is not a tad bit weaker, which would in turn expand outward sooner than the other side, which in turn would "loosen" its grip on the boolit on one side more so than the other.

All that is correct and perhaps there is some truth to it. However, are capable of differentiating the difference in your shooting ability? 44man probably is but I'm not as most very accomplished pistol/revolver shots are not able to either. If the front of the bullet is into the throat and the bullet fits the throat then it pretty much is centered and will enter the throat straight. Also remember that dies are made to specifications that allow the sized cases to go into any SAAMI spec chambers of which the Rugers are.

If you've only the one .45 Colt then custom dies made for the smallest chamber are a possibility. However, making the dies larger means the cases are sized with a larger inner diameter and tension on a reasonably sized bullet could become an issue. I believe 44man touched on that issue. You can enlarge the bullets and the throats but the barrel groove diameter is what it is. I see nothing wrong with the size of your cases, the chambers, the throats or the bore. The problem is in the loads.

This might still happen with tighter tolerances, but the effects would not be as dramatic as it is with the very loose fit that I am seeing in my chambers.

Both of my revolvers and my 2 rifles have variences the same or greater and I've not problems with developing accurate loads for any of them. As a matter of fact the 2 loads mentioned shoot well in all of them plus the Contender and those two loads are most often loaded on a Dillon SDB to boot. Me thinks you are over thinking the problem. I suggest you change what is the easiest to change first; the alloy and the load.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

Ok, ok. Haha. You have soften my hardheadedness. I am just glad you have patience. I really want to get this thing shooting good. I am headed out to mix some different alloy and then cast some.

I'll post pictures tomorrow, but I had a few mins this evening to try a couple cylinders of two different loads. Unisized, 50/50 alloy, and they were in NS cases I had primed yesterday. One group was with 8.5 unique, the other ~9.

The 8.5 put three holes touching, and three holes about 1" apart and 6-7" low and left of the three touching. I know the first two were in the different groups so I quit looking and shot the rest. Now I wish I had. Fluke? Who knows. The 9 grain bunch shot all over the place again. Go figure. I did clean the gun between the two.

First bunch left lead just before the rifling on top, the second bunch left lead at the rifling on bottom. That just plain confuses me. Interestingly enough they both left some blowback. And it is interesting how it was left. I'll try to get pictures.

Ok. So I am changing the alloy. How should I change the lube? And, should I size or not size them?

[newton]

Just for clarification and reiteration, I am not so much concerned about the blowback issue. I was just concerned that it could be indicating something that also deals with accuracy. However, I am looking for a hunting load and accuracy. I think those low powered loads could tighten up given some practice with the gun. But I feel they are underpowered.

I am at the mercy of the experienced here. I really, really am determined to get a good load. I am not rich, nor have the time to spend to get a bench rest gun. I just want repeatable hunting accuracy. Hope this makes sense.

[subsonic]

If you are not recoil shy....... and since you ARE talking about a hunting load.... a lot of people have had better luck with full boogie Ruger level loads in the .45 colt with H110 or 296.

Now, these are only for the "larger" frame .45 Colt Rugers, not New Vaqueros or flat-tops.... also people tend to have better luck with heavier boolits, like 300gr or more.

Good ones to try are the 335-340gr LBT WFN/WLN/LFN style and any of the 300gr+ SWC style boolits. A gas check will make life a little easier too, if more expensive.

[Larry Gibson]

Are you lubing by hand (TL?) or with a lubrasizer?

Larry Gibson

[newton]

If you are not recoil shy....... and since you ARE talking about a hunting load.... a lot of people have had better luck with full boogie Ruger level loads in the .45 colt with H110 or 296.

Now, these are only for the "larger" frame .45 Colt Rugers, not New Vaqueros or flat-tops.... also people tend to have better luck with heavier boolits, like 300gr or more.

Good ones to try are the 335-340gr LBT WFN/WLN/LFN style and any of the 300gr+ SWC style boolits. A gas check will make life a little easier too, if more expensive.

Maybe I am recoil shy. That might be my whole problem, although I doubt it is. Honestly though I do not want to try and duplicate 44 mag loads. I just want a stout load for the gun, up at the upper end of it. I know the Ruger could handle it, but I do not want to put anymore stress on it than is needed.

I have thought about the gas checked boolits. I have great results with them in my rifles. And I am still really contemplating getting a PB check maker for the boolits I have now.

[newton]

Are you lubing by hand (TL?) or with a lubrasizer?

Larry Gibson

Hand lubing.

[newton]

Ok, so here are the pictures from last night.

The one picture has both 6 shot groups...patterns.

The one on the left is the 8.5. I cannot say for sure the count on the rounds, I did not look after every shot. Although I can say that the first two were in the two separate places, one high, one low.

43557

Disregard the man in the image. haha. The paper I use is from a drawing tablet my kids use. I just turn it around and use it to see where my boolits hit. I did not realize I was actually shooting at a figure of someone.

At this point I am really thinking it might be me. I will not shoot again till I get a solid bench set up and a solid rest that holds the gun rather tight. I need to eliminate as much of the human error for my own peace of mind.

This next picture is from the 9 grain load. These were the neck sized only rounds I had already primed. While its not the same type of blowback, I do find it interesting.

43558

This is a picture of the boolit I am using. Just in case there is any doubt. What I would like to know is where it is recommended that seat the boolit to. What I have done is seat it in the crimp groove and apply a light crimp.

43559

And then here is a picture I took of the cylinder while I was cleaning. Most of the lead was easy to get out from the barrel. But while cleaning the cylinder I noticed quite a bit of 'stuff' caked in those tiny groves that are in the transition from chamber to throat. At first I thought it was lead, but after quite a bit of scrubbing I noticed its just powder/lube cake? Its definitely not lead, but it is tough to get out. I am sure its because of the grooves. Is this normal? Seems to me it should be a smooth transition from chamber to throat. But maybe if its meant to fire jacketed rounds it would not matter so much? Will the grooves effect the boolit going into the throat?

43560

And last but not least I slugged everything again. While I was waiting for my new mix to heat up I cleaned the gun and took these measurements. Bore=~.450" There is a slight restriction at the frame, which I hear is normal for this gun. Throats=.4525" and they are right on the money with that. They all seem to be exactly the same or at least close enough for me to not be able to detect.

I was wrong on my previous remembrance of the dimensions of the chamber. Although I just now realized I did not slug it, I did take measurements from fired rounds and sized rounds. Fired=.478" at neck. Sized=.469" at neck.

I also did two separate batches of boolits. One air cooled, one water dropped. They measured out at .4525"-.4545" they are definitely oblong with the wider part being perpendicular to the two halves of the mold. Some of them actually measured out a little smaller than .452" but that could be a mistake on my part with measuring. The air cooled are for sure softer than the water dropped, and I cannot tell much of a difference between them and the old ones but I think there is a tiny bit. The mix is right about 25/75, pure/ww.

So there it is. Look forward to more suggestions.

[newton]

Ok, so the pictures did not work. Here they are again in the order I had intended.

43562

43563

43564

43565

[newton]

Well I shot some this evening again. I have a lot of work to do around the house, but this 45 is eating at me to get a good grasp on what is happening and what to do about it.

I loaded up 12 rounds. I think I got some good lube, I added some LLA to the mix just for kicks and grins. It's a very nice sticky putty lube. I do not see it being the issue, but I am not ruling it out. But all the lead is gathering at the cone and the bore is bright with just a pass through with a patch.

I put the same 8.5 grains underneath the new alloy. One thing I did was to set 6 of them out farther than the other 6. And the 6 I set out further were sized versus the first 6. I did this so that the boolits would be already in the throats when they start out. I got different results with the two sets, but still not what I am looking for.

I got quite a bit of lead in the cone yet once again. So I am going to do two things. I am going to scrap the new alloy and go with straight ww water dropped. Then I am going with Herco instead of unique. I'll still try unique, but I am going to test them side by side with the new boolits.

I used a good rest this time, but I think I can do better. I would love to try some pb gas checks on these things. I would just have to wonder what it might do. But thinking out loud here again, if I am only getting lead at the cone, and my numbers are good with the throat and bore, then the only thing left is alloy right? If it was lube it would show up on down the barrel right?

[Larry Gibson]

If it was lube it would show up on down the barrel right?

Before swapping powders or alloys; lube those bullets with straight LLA as per the instructions, then push them through a sizer, then lightly lube again.....with straight LLA. Then load them over 8.5 gr of Unique, seat to the crimp groove and crimp the case mouth into the crimp groove. The blow back is normal. If the bullets are over size for the throats then the leading in the throats is from the lube you are using failing. Or it could be from the alloy. If the first doesn't cure the problem then scrap the alloy, use WWs with 2% tin added and let them air cool. You are changing too many things at one time. Just change one thing at a time.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

I would suggest you use NRA -50-50 of LBT soft blue or some other known good
lube. Just mixing up stuff can work well, but if there is an issue, the solutions usually
lie in:

1. Fit
2. Design
3. Lube

That design may or may not be a good one, no personal experience. The lube is an unknown.

Bill

[newton]

If it was lube it would show up on down the barrel right?

Before swapping powders or alloys; lube those bullets with straight LLA as per the instructions, then push them through a sizer, then lightly lube again.....with straight LLA. Then load them over 8.5 gr of Unique, seat to the crimp groove and crimp the case mouth into the crimp groove. The blow back is normal. If the bullets are over size for the throats then the leading in the throats is from the lube you are using failing. Or it could be from the alloy. If the first doesn't cure the problem then scrap the alloy, use WWs with 2% tin added and let them air cool. You are changing too many things at one time. Just change one thing at a time.

Larry Gibson

I'll try it, but the lead is not in the throats. There is a lot of soot in them, but no lead. The lead is all in the cone. Most of it congregates around the rifling, but not more than just a tad into the barrel. Last night there was significant lead toward the outside of the cone, as if it was trying to go out the cylinder gap. I have thought a lot, and have had some people give some pretty good explanations of this, and it really does seem like the lead is getting cut by the gases as it goes into the rifling.

To me, if I picture it in my head, the boolit gets a real hard shove - it starts out at around .452", as it exits the case and enters the bore via the cone, it encounters its first big obstacle. This slows it down momentarily and the gases behind it have enough time to scorch the base as the boolit is not as large as the very outside of the cone. In essence, the end of the cone closest to the cylinder is a little larger than the boolit and undoubtedly allows enough room for some gases to get around the base.

The only solution I can see is a base that is 'tough' enough to withstand this momentary scorch until it gets into the bore. I can see where gas checks would come in real handy, as the alloy would not matter as much. I have also done a lot of research and read a lot of people who have had this same problem with lead in the cone only. Not just "articles" but real life situations. And some have corrected this with a slower powder that does not burn as "hot" but gives enough push to get the boolit into the bore before giving her all she's got.

Am I completely convinced of this scenario? Not yet. But I did try straight LLA in the very beginning per instructions. In fact, its all I use for my rifle boolits. But those boolits have gas checks. I get no leading at all in my rifles and have never paid that much attention to the alloy. Just wdww. But I am not above trying anything either.

43607

This is just a quick thing I drew up, and what I have pictured in my head. Of course in theory the boolit should 'obturate' the throat, but also the lube is what helps to seal the gases in the throat area. Which I believe is happening because there is no lead at all in the throats. But as soon as the base moves to cone area there is a gap that either the boolit has to fill or the gases can get around it. I guess in theory lube could fill this area, but it is a large area(in scale) for the lube to completely fill. And it is also a wide enough area that the boolit would have a real hard time trying to obturate completely.

However, I can see the signs of it to some extent with the last 6 rounds I shot last night. All the leading was on the very outside of the cone toward the cylinder. As if the boolit had obturated enough to cover the 2/3 of the cone toward the barrel.

43608

Again, not saying I got this down pat, just my thoughts.

[newton]

I would suggest you use NRA -50-50 of LBT soft blue or some other known good
lube. Just mixing up stuff can work well, but if there is an issue, the solutions usually
lie in:

1. Fit
2. Design
3. Lube

That design may or may not be a good one, no personal experience. The lube is an unknown.

Bill

According to all, and I do mean all that I have read and heard and everything else there is, the fit is where its supposed to be. A tight, but not too large boolit for the throat. The throats are larger than the bore, and the boolit is at least .001" above the bore.

Then there is design. According to all I have heard and read yet again, the boolit I am using is a proven boolit for the gun.

That leaves lube. And while I am not 100% on this one, I am next to positive its not the issue. There are no other signs of the lube being a bad choice. If there were other signs, then I would switch. But so far the signs give more weight to other things.

This is just me. Its my thoughts on it with the research I have done. I am not saying I am an expert. But I will stick with this and eventually it will get figured out. This will end beautifully when its done. And hopefully those coming after me will have something to go off of.

If I am wrong about the lube, I will post it. My goal is to work through this and try the different avenues. I have tried some different lubes already. The thing I have not tried is different alloys(of known composition) and different powders to the degree I need to.

I am thinking though, Unique is a proven powder with this boolit and with this caliber. So I could very well find that alloy change is all I need. But maybe a different powder will alloy me to not have to be so precise on my alloy. There is always a catch I am thinking.

And this could all wind up being the fact the gun is just no broke in yet. I do not have a great feel for things, but maybe the cone is too rough. Maybe the slight restriction in the barrel at the frame is the cause. The list is long I am afraid. If I had the notion I would just suck it up and buy a box of J bullets to see what happens. But I really just want to make this lead thing work.

Ok. So that just made me think. If I were to buy some J bullets would it matter what weight to buy? It would just be for some comparison and maybe to help smooth out the restriction a little.

[44man]

The boolit should do much better. I would go all the way and water drop WW metal, it harms nothing at all and might work.
I can't quite blame lube yet since the bore is clean. Lead on the cone sounds like the lead is trying to exit the gap. Something is happening to the boolit before it gets in the bore. It appears a good seal is made in the bore.
If that is just lube or powder residue in the start of the throats it is kind of normal. Poor lube can burn and leave more.
Gas checks are not the answer, they are only to stop skid so gas leakage stops. If a base flares at the gap, gas checks can help but all that is needed with PB is to make boolits harder. The higher the cost of checks go, the more I hate the things!
I have super good results with PB in all revolvers from the .44 up into the .500's. I have run them to max in the .454 and 45-70, up to 1800 fps.
You can get gas cutting at the gap but none in the bore if lead gets to putty and tries to blow out. If any lead at all is on the front of the cylinder, it is an indication. It might not be that bad.
Slump before the cone can also peel off lead as the boolit tries to get into the bore because the nose can also try to exit the gap.
Figure even a light load of fast powder applies 7 to 8 TONS of force on a boolit. Then you want it to cross a gap!!!!!!! :veryconfu

[newton]

Yea, its just powder and crud in the start of the throats. At first I thought it was lead, but when I took a good look at it there is no lead in those tiny grooves.

One thing I noticed last night is that the lead that was on the cone, close to the cylinder gap, was very easy to remove. The lead that I have removed from the end of the cone toward the bore was not near as easy.

This makes me really think about something. In my mind I can picture the quick burst of hot gases that burn off a layer of lead from the base of the boolit, and because there is so much force it blows it on toward the front of the boolit as it gets to the rifling, then the boolit 'smears' it on the barrel before finally sealing in the bore. But the stuff that was burned off the backside and blown back toward the gap just gets 'deposited' and so its easier to remove.

Again, just my mind running wild here.

[12DMAX]

I have been watching your thread also, I am having similar issues with the same bullet.

[subsonic]

If you want to try jacketed, go with 250gr XTPs.

Get some known good lube to try, to rule it out. You have a lot of open ends to tie up still.

I *think* your pressure (curve) is too steep for your alloy and/or lube.

[44man]

Lead does not burn off or melt from powder but it can be pressure cut.
Almost all leading is mechanical, Heat itself is never an issue.
Even a paper wad under a boolit might not burn. I have never found melted Dacron filler either.
I have shot a million plastic wads behind boolits and all are not melted and could be used again.
But lead does get plastic under pressure. It does not melt. Heat duration is too short.
Understand we are not talking full auto where a red hot gun can cook off loads and ruin a barrel.
To cure mechanical problems means to make the boolit tougher, harder, whatever you choose. Stop lead flow! Stop slump! Stop skid. Cast can resist pressure, believe me.
If cast could not be shot, I would not be here. All here know there is nothing better. Just adjust. The silly grease balls can out shoot jacketed.

[newton]

If you want to try jacketed, go with 250gr XTPs.

Get some known good lube to try, to rule it out. You have a lot of open ends to tie up still.

I *think* your pressure (curve) is too steep for your alloy and/or lube.

I stopped at the local shop today. It was tempting, but I just could not bring myself to buy those things. I look at the price and think, "man, thats a full 1000 primers worth". Or, I could buy 60+ pounds of lead at the local scrap yard.

But, in all honesty they only had up to 240 grain in the 45 and so it was not close enough for me. Had they of had 250 grain I might have done it.

I am not ruling out buying some platted bullets though. Just to see. But I am going to have to work these bugs out one way or another.

[newton]

Lead does not burn off or melt from powder but it can be pressure cut.
Almost all leading is mechanical, Heat itself is never an issue.
Even a paper wad under a boolit might not burn. I have never found melted Dacron filler either.
I have shot a million plastic wads behind boolits and all are not melted and could be used again.
But lead does get plastic under pressure. It does not melt. Heat duration is too short.
Understand we are not talking full auto where a red hot gun can cook off loads and ruin a barrel.
To cure mechanical problems means to make the boolit tougher, harder, whatever you choose. Stop lead flow! Stop slump! Stop skid. Cast can resist pressure, believe me.
If cast could not be shot, I would not be here. All here know there is nothing better. Just adjust. The silly grease balls can out shoot jacketed.

I get it. I was using a poor choice of words there. The idea was that there is enough space in the cone to allow the 'division' of the lead in some way shape or form from the original boolit. Which lends itself to the thought of the lead not being "tuff enough". But I am only reiterating what your saying anyways.

I went to the scrap yard. They had a big hunk of lead that seems pretty solid. I am going to be curious how it melts. I know that eventually I am going to have to get me a hardness tester. I would be real curious in doing some testing over and above what I am doing now. Starting with a soft lead and working my way up the scale with 'x' amount of shots and full cleaning between them. I would love to see the results from something like that.

[newton]

Just a quick thought here. I went back and looked at some conversations I have had with someone who was on here talking about their new 45 convertible not too long ago. He was getting great groups and such. I asked him what he was using and he was using a cast boolit from Sportsman's Warehouse.

Now I do not know for sure, but I am going to guess their boolits are hard cast. Maybe not linotype or anything, but harder than what I am shooting for sure. He was not having any issues that he could speak of. Interesting now that I think about it.

Second thought that comes from my mind is the simple fact that this gun is brand new. Literally, this thing has had less than 120 rounds down the barrel. Is it not true that some guns just take a while to get settled in as far as this is concerned?

[newton]

Well, call it birthday luck or some kind of luck but I actually shot a group tonight. I'll post pictures tomorrow. I had cast some with the new alloy mix this morning. Water dropped. I estimate after the cut downs, somewhere around 1/12, lead/ww.

Regardless, it's a far cry from where I started. Kept the same 8.5 charge. Kept the same lube. But I did switch between unsized and sized. But my temporary rest has something to be desired so I cannot say there is any difference between the two.

One thing I did was to paint the sights white. Up to a point. It helps with sight aquisition. I think with practice I'll have it down. I might have errored with my first large caliber revolver being a 4 5/8" barrel, but it sure does look good. Haha.

There was a little leading but this time its more in the bore. So with a little work on the lube I think I'll be good to go. I think I will still try some slower powder, but I have so much unique that I have to use it too. Maybe it will work good with the other cylinder in 45acp.

I am not done. Still more work to do. But I am happy at this point.

[Wolfer]

I'm certain that most guns work better after a thousand rds. I also believe they will seem to work the best when YOU shoot that thousand rds. I truly believe the shooter improves more than the gun!

[newton]

I'm certain that most guns work better after a thousand rds. I also believe they will seem to work the best when YOU shoot that thousand rds. I truly believe the shooter improves more than the gun!

Yea, it will take a LOT of shooting on my end to get used to the gun. I think I am going to switch over now and start shooting the 45acp out of it. The main thing I need to work on is sight picture. I am so used to shooting open sights with a rifle that its hard to adapt to the pistol. There is a big difference between the two. The other is getting used to holding it and a consistent grip. I can do all those things with the acp cylinder and get used to it, then eventually practice more with the colt.

I'll always have some colts made up though, you just gotta love the way they feel when in goes off with one in the chamber.

[newton]

Well here are the pictures as promised. I cannot say enough for all the help I have gotten, if not only for the simple words of encouragement. In my case, I firmly believe it was an alloy issue. The quick force of the powder was simply more than the alloy could stand and once it 'cut' the base of the boolit then accuracy was out the window. It really is logical if one sits back and thinks about it. I am not saying my lube is not perfect yet, and I cannot say that lube cannot take up for what the alloy is lacking in, but when so much force is applied to the backside of a boolit so quickly something has to give. The boolit base is what gave.

I'll have to try and recover some of the boolits I shot. They are in my backstop which is full of sand. I would think that I might be able to recover some of them and see well enough how they managed. Maybe not, but I'll try.

43643

Here is the first group with unsized boolits. After shooting these I was pretty stoked if you consider where I have come from. I pulled the cylinder to see what there was in the way of lead and there was some very minimal leading going on in the start of the lands. This could be lube, or it just could be the gun needing to be broke in some more. I do not have a microscope to see the roughness of the gun so there is no telling. I am also wondering if it might not be from the constriction which I know is there at the frame. I might try firelapping just a little to see what happens.

43644

This is the very next 6 round group with sized boolits. I was pretty stoked when I saw these. I can almost say that I could have called those two fliers also. I'll see when I get some more time. I have really been pushing getting this load down. I have not taken adequate time to concentrate on a lot of things that go into reloading. So now that I am satisfied with the prelimenary results I will concentrate on the loading, and then give myself a good weekend to shoot instead of trying to make it happen in the evenings with all the other things I have going on in my life.

43645

One thing that helped me was to outline the sights with some white paint/marker. I hate to modify things like this rather than get some factory made ones, but I needed something to help me focus for the time being. It really did help.

43646

You can see how I did it. I ran the white down to where at full draw you should not see any black. If you see black then the sight is too high. That is where I was messing up. It does not do anything for the sight being too low, but that is easier for me to see. I think that this is going to help me get consistent with the gun. Once I can accomplish that then the sighting issue should go away. It took me a while with rifles, but now its just second nature with them.

I did seat them a touch deeper in the case, but don't have the nerve to seat them against the powder. That would put almost the entire boolit in the case. I think I will still try the LLA though, it is so much easier and less messier than pan lubing. Maybe with the alloy now it might work. Although in the very beginning I am pretty sure I had a hard alloy. But, maybe it was too hard. Who knows. There is a lot to experiment with, and its fun doing it. And now I have a load that I feel comfortable with.

Thanks again guys for the help.

[newton]

I did move the sights between the two groups. Now I just need to take it down some.

[Rockchucker]

Newton, I ordered the same gun as yours and have been following this thread with interest. It's suppose to be delivered tomorrow and as of yet I don't have a mold for this caliber, but the one you're using is top on my list to buy, wish I could find a used one. When it's delivered I'm sure I'll probably be going thru the same issues as yourself (hope not). I'm gonna use some C-R I've mixed with some NRA 50-50 lube and try some 50-50 + tin for my alloy for starters and see where my bore and throats are at. Don't you just love this hobby? / Ron

[newton]

Newton, I ordered the same gun as yours and have been following this thread with interest. It's suppose to be delivered tomorrow and as of yet I don't have a mold for this caliber, but the one you're using is top on my list to buy, wish I could find a used one. When it's delivered I'm sure I'll probably be going thru the same issues as yourself (hope not). I'm gonna use some C-R I've mixed with some NRA 50-50 lube and try some 50-50 + tin for my alloy for starters and see where my bore and throats are at. Don't you just love this hobby? / Ron

This is a fun hobby! My wife thinks its an expensive one too... haha

I hope you do not. I know you probably know this, but slug and measure your gun first off to rule it out. I have to say that my gun really supprised me when I did it. In fact, if it was not for the tight frame restriction on the barrel I would say its near as perfect as they come. I really put too much emphasis on the whole chamber issue in the beginning.

I hope the best for you with that mix. I am a far cry from understanding these things, but maybe the tin will be the key to the mix. I did not add any and I know from reading that it does help add an element of hardness to it.

I will be curious to see what it does for you though. Do you have a powder choice yet? If I was real curious I would go backward and mix some softer alloy and try a slower powder. But I am not that curious right now. haha. I got a million things to do and not enough time to do them.

Its a VERY nice gun. I love the way it feels in the hand. A longer barrel would be better for my inexperience, but the way the 4 5/8" looks and feels is just real dandy. I also got the thing to take hunting, either as a primary or back up, and the shorter barrel will be nice for a good hip holster.

[Rockchucker]

I'll probably start working on some loads with Unique since this is my powder of choice for the other calibers I shoot and reload for fun, This is my 4th BlackHawk and love the s/a Rugers I've collected over the years. As far as powders go I have H 110, 2400, 231, 700x and Unique, just depends on what I'm shooting and which gun. Unique seems to be my best all round powder for plinking, shooting cans and golf balls hanging from a string are fun also. Enjoy your new gun, I know I will. /Ron

[Lonegun1894]

Newton,
I do not dispute what is happening, and am glad that you're making progress, but please allow me to throw another variable into this discussion based on a comment you made on the first page of this thread...

"And no, I do not have another revolver to compare my shooting too. I do not doubt at all that my shooting is 'lacking' to say the least. I know it will have to be worked on. But I can say for certainty that when in the matter of just a little bit I shoot 6 rounds and get one group, then immediately shoot 6 more and get a completely separate group, there must be something too it."

The one huge but barely noticeable thing that can make a difference between strings is your grip. I am saying this because I have done it, and I would bet many others here have too. Please let me explain. You get a comfortable grip on the gun and shoot the first 6 rounds, then reload, while probably changing your grip slightly before the next string, and get two distinct groups, often times even when shooting the same exact load. This difference can be so tiny that most of us would not notice it, but it is still there and results in slightly different recoil in the gun, and therefore slightly different groups. This isnt to say to ignore the leading issue, I know it took me some time to solve mine too in the several Blackhawks and Vaqueros I have, just saying it man not be the ONLY thing changing netween shot strings with different loads. Mine went away when I started to pay attention to it and my group sizes shrank. If this isn't a factor you're dealing with, please disregard this post, but in my case I didn't initially even consider it as a possible factor as to why my groups were shifting, so thought I'd throw out a lesson I learned from my mistake to hopefully take some frustration out of this for you or anyone else reading this.

[newton]

Newton,
I do not dispute what is happening, and am glad that you're making progress, but please allow me to throw another variable into this discussion based on a comment you made on the first page of this thread...

"And no, I do not have another revolver to compare my shooting too. I do not doubt at all that my shooting is 'lacking' to say the least. I know it will have to be worked on. But I can say for certainty that when in the matter of just a little bit I shoot 6 rounds and get one group, then immediately shoot 6 more and get a completely separate group, there must be something too it."

The one huge but barely noticeable thing that can make a difference between strings is your grip. I am saying this because I have done it, and I would bet many others here have too. Please let me explain. You get a comfortable grip on the gun and shoot the first 6 rounds, then reload, while probably changing your grip slightly before the next string, and get two distinct groups, often times even when shooting the same exact load. This difference can be so tiny that most of us would not notice it, but it is still there and results in slightly different recoil in the gun, and therefore slightly different groups. This isnt to say to ignore the leading issue, I know it took me some time to solve mine too in the several Blackhawks and Vaqueros I have, just saying it man not be the ONLY thing changing netween shot strings with different loads. Mine went away when I started to pay attention to it and my group sizes shrank. If this isn't a factor you're dealing with, please disregard this post, but in my case I didn't initially even consider it as a possible factor as to why my groups were shifting, so thought I'd throw out a lesson I learned from my mistake to hopefully take some frustration out of this for you or anyone else reading this.

By all means you are right. I have no doubt in my mind that over half, and I do mean over half, of the issue I am dealing with as far as accuracy is to do with my shooting skills...or lack there of to be exact. I know that with time and practice they will get better.

Even with that there is still a distinct difference between the alloys I was using. I would almost bet that if I took the old alloy mix and fired off a cylinder the groups would open back up, not to mention the leading. If one just looks at the groups I was getting before the change, then after the first change, then the final change you can see quite a bit of difference.

I think a lot of it could be grip and a lot of other things. But I tried to eliminate as many variables as I could. I only changed my lube a tiny bit. The difference I see is tremendous.

Maybe if I get a wild hair I'll mix some old alloy backup and give it another shot. But I just do not see it being as good as what I am getting now. Lack of experience is a very big part of my problem, but I do not think its all.

In the end, this is where I am at - I know the gun shoots good, way better than I can. I know I have a load that shoots good, way better than I can. And I know I have come to a point where I wont spend so much time cleaning lead out of the gun, which is good for me and the gun.

In time I can only hope to get as good as some guys around here. One thing that is interesting is this. That one guy I mentioned, it was his first big revolver too. Now he might have had some experience with smaller revolvers along the way, I am not sure. But he was getting outstanding groups for being a first timer in that regards. It just so happens that he started out with a commercial cast boolit which most are fairly hard. He also started out with a high dose of Unique. Higher than mine actually. So I am at the same point he is for the most part and now am seeing the same results, well almost, that he did. It might be just coincidence, but I think there is more too it.

Regardless, this revolver shootin is some fun stuff! My boys are going to love shooting that 45 in the acp. On a side note I got some 38/357 stuff coming to load for a couple of friends. This will allow me some 'play time' with those guns also...and just might set me up for another gun myself. I should get plenty of practice with the art of pistol shootin in the coming months.

[Wolfer]

Lone gun
I fully agree with this and I'll add to it my opinion. Short barreled guns are just as accurate as long barreled guns. Talking 4" to 8" here since that's about all I have any experience with. However, grip, sight picture, trigger squeeze, etc are more critical with the short ones.

It's all critical with all handguns but really shows up on my 4-5/8 model