Water Proofing PPCB's

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PRINTERPAPERWATERPROOFEDBOOLITS012.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PRINTERPAPERWATERPROOFEDBOOLITS015.jpg

It's time for me to waterproof my pig gun patched boolits so I simply tried what was at hand and that was my molten waxy-lube pot and contents. The Molten wax soaks into the paper quite fine. On firing the patch seems to come off OK but does not fragment well. Then again it was with a Trail Boss load with mild pressures. I did try a H4227 load and that seemed to brake up the patch better.

The question is whether it is a good idea to impregnate the patch so it can't compress so easily in the bore.

Mmm... looking at that patch I can see it slipped on the boolit. I didn't see that previously. It looks like it's time to start using grooved boolits.

[geargnasher]

.

The question is whether it is a good idea to impregnate the patch so it can't compress so easily in the bore.

Mmm... looking at that patch I can see it slipped on the boolit. I didn't see that previously. It looks like it's time to start using grooved boolits.

UmmmHmmmm:p

I have no troubles with grooved boolits and jackets saturated with JPW and forced through a push-through sizer, or impregnated with warmed felix lube under pressure in a base-first sizer. I think to waterproof the patch it has to be soaked through with something. One thing I've been meaning to try is to dampen the previously dried jacket with some of the clear liquid tile grout waterproofing sealant, let that dry, and then lube the jacket with some sort of wax/grease lube like beeswax/Vaseline. Turtle wax does a pretty good job of waterproofing too, and makes a decent tumble-lube for bare boolits too, might work on the patch as well.

Gear

[303Guy]

Yeah. I didn't think of the paper gripping the slicks by virtue of their roughness. I've been intending to make a split mold with shallow grooves for a while now. I also found the boolits seat into the case mouth easier. I hope they won't move in the magazine under recoil.

Another question, should the seated portion of the patch remain unsealed, i.e sealing after seating?

Are shallow grooves enough to grip a wax sealed patch?

[randyrat]

I'm no PP expert. I do some and have shot hundreds thru a 30-30 with a variety of loads successfully .
My normal procedure is to, paper patch wet the patched bullet slightly, then let it dry. After the paper has dried and is on the bullet sealed and snug I run a little bit of beeswax olive oil mix over the PP (loaded round). I don't know if this actually water proofs the patch but it does make it water resistant.

[geargnasher]

Yeah. I didn't think of the paper gripping the slicks by virtue of their roughness. I've been intending to make a split mold with shallow grooves for a while now. I also found the boolits seat into the case mouth easier. I hope they won't move in the magazine under recoil.

Another question, should the seated portion of the patch remain unsealed, i.e sealing after seating?

Are shallow grooves enough to grip a wax sealed patch?

Works at my house. These are .007-8" deep:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea39a08d9d9c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2489)

I resize my case necks to give about a .002" interference fit with the boolit, and the jacket gets lubed all over and final sized so the paper is already compressed a bit and will hold the tension. I have no problems with the lubed patch moving in the neck under recoil, but if you don't size your necks or "iron" your patches, lubing the part inside the neck could be a problem for sure.

Have you tried simply dunking the nose of the loaded round in your molten lube, holding it there for a few seconds, and wiping the excess with a rag? That should seal the exposed patch and case mouth area.

Gear

[Harter66]

While I don't have to deal w/the tropical down pours or monsoons I've come in looking like a frozen drond rat from the snow a time or 2. For my uses ,my all boolit moified Darrs lube applied for sizing then by hand after seating has been sufficent .I admit I have not been in even light rain or more than light snow w/a chambered round those in my jacket or belt box stayed dry as did those in the box magizine . I would call them resistant not proof.

1lb parfine,12oz vasoline,3tbsn stp. Its slick,not too sticky,and seems to work from 20-95*F,w/ogetting runny.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have good luck with JPW.

[303Guy]

Have you tried simply dunking the nose of the loaded round in your molten lube, holding it there for a few seconds, and wiping the excess with a rag? That should seal the exposed patch and case mouth area.That's how I've been doing the noses. I did the seated section separately.

I've tried wax emulsions but found them to degrade the patch initially. Wrong paper maybe. I'm not ruling JPW out, just starting with what I've got at hand. I may have mentioned that it gets pretty wet and soggy here in the winter. No snow in my parts so the water remains wet if you know what I mean. Humidity is 100% so condensation is an issue too. It's cold, wet and muddy out there! Heaps of fun!

This all stems from wet patch failure in the bush. I'm thinking the hot dipped seated boolit will seal the case pretty well or at least well enough. They're not going deep sea diving!

Winter is coming and I now have pig hunting opportunity so I gotta get ready.

[runfiverun]

back in the old days they just dipped the patched rounds nose in b-wax.
that was the job for the little kids, women rolled the patches on at the factory.

[PanaDP]

back in the old days they just dipped the patched rounds nose in b-wax.
that was the job for the little kids, women rolled the patches on at the factory.

A friend of mine swears by this method, with a slight refinement. He gets the wax very hot so it's very thin and he dips, shakes it once, and then dips the exposed part of the bullet in ice water. Then the exposed lead gets wiped with a rag to make sure there's no wax droplet left behind. He claims this sets the wax before it can soak into the patch. The result is a very thin coat of wax on the outside, leaving the patch essentially dry to work as intended.

[goofyoldfart]

Ya'll should try a produce that is called " Snow Seal" . works good for just about anything. If JPW works, so should SnowSeal. God Bless to all. :coffeecom

Goofy:-D

[barrabruce]

Panda I think you could be right on that.

The patches I have soaked and let get hot or heated with a flame heat do wick up a lot of wax and into the case neck as well.

This seems to get into the paper and althou slick tends to be more fragile and softer than without any soaked in waxy stuff.

The strength of the patch is weak-end and tends to get distorted easily.

Whats is snow seal or whats in it???

Barra

[303Guy]

Barra, you mentioned Goss Dri Lube in the 'Lube' thread. I haven't looked for any yet but now's a good time. Dubbin and that hair setting stuff might be candidates too. I'm thinking I don't want the seal to soak into the neck as that's where the paper grips the neck to hold it in place - not to say I have to rely in paper friction but it is a nice option, allowing for less neck tension.

Hot dip waxy-lube seems to toughen the patch. Probably only preventing it from wearing through but possibly because the patch is now a 'solid' it compresses less, transferring the rifling impression into the core allowing more room for the patch in the bore.

[barrabruce]

I'm no PP expert. I do some and have shot hundreds thru a 30-30 with a variety of loads successfully .
My normal procedure is to, paper patch wet the patched bullet slightly, then let it dry. After the paper has dried and is on the bullet sealed and snug I run a little bit of beeswax olive oil mix over the PP (loaded round). I don't know if this actually water proofs the patch but it does make it water resistant.

If I get this right you seat dry patch then smear with a little wax.
Hmm I think I should go down this route too.

I need more help than one can imagine at the moment.

I started off well a couple of years ago..then it got all tech-nickle and after so many wild ideas I have forgotten what I'd done, what mostly sort'da worked.

:lol:[smilie=b::bootgive:

303 mine tend to loose a lot of its tension strength when unwrapped and pulled compared to the unsoaked portion.

[303Guy]

Thanks Barra. That's the warning bell that tells me soaking is going to cause problems with patch grip on the boolit. Definitely time to cut a grooved mold! (Or find another water proofer).

[windrider919]

I have been Hummmming so much here it sounds like I might be writing a song.....

Had to jump in here as some experience here might apply to others.

Maybe not. You will just have to try it.

1st of all - I found I got BETTER accuracy if the patch was NOT compressed. That means I do NOT run my patched bullets through a sizer but instead patch a bullet sized to the correct bore/groove/throat fit.

2nd - the results with BP n PP DID tend to reinforce the belief that PP n lube was a bad thing. But I still tried it with smokeless and found, if a few other things were done that I got better accuracy WITH some type of '''light''' lube, not heavy like a beeswax or grease stick lube. That lead to trying Rooster water soluble (correct word choice?) wax lube ...not applied after patching but in the patch wetting solution. And even then I found it was best at 1/4 strength.

Here's the deal, when the water/wax dries it becomes very water resistant {soaking in water it will get soft n gummy but otherwise shrug's off brief exposure} so it somewhat waterproofs the cartridge. Field experience with cartridges kept in a wet shirt pocket while hunting were UN-damaged. AND, using this stuff diluted with water leaves the dried bullet patch with some compressibility because the wax does not fill all the voids in the paper fiber, the water did that until it evaporated. I also have successfully used a little JPW on the exposed patch of loaded rounds...but also had the experience of it LOOSENING the patch as the paper swelled and expanded where applied...this seems to be due to what type of paper is used, some do it and some don't.

When I tested dipping the loaded bullet tips in several experimental mixtures of molten: bees wax, petroleum canning wax, GG bullet lube mixes, etc (I even tried sheep fat tallow just like the British used to specify for their patched rounds pre and during the American Revolution times)...they shot OK for hunting accuracy, not bench rest. It DID seem that having all the pores/voids of the paper filled cause a loss of accuracy, JUST LIKE the compressed, sized patches(compressed or filled, then the patch has no 'give' as it enters the barrel HOWEVER, I also found that sometimes bullets so treated did not shed the patch properly, causing flyers. In fact, some patches stuck so firmly that only penetrating the target downrange scraped them off to leave them IN the bullet hole. And THAT lead to experiments with spraying the UN-patched bullets with a release agent such as dry moly, silicone leather waterproofing spray, PAM, etc. so the PP would come of at the muzzle instead of being glued to the bullet by the wax/lube. It works but adds another step which defeats the purpose of 'cheap n easy' Paper Patched loads

You can take my experience with a grain of salt [Some here seem absolutely fixated that the patched bullet MUST be sized to X dimension, I, instead, have found the barrel does a fine job of sizing if the bullet fits the throat and launches correctly]. and use my experience to guide your next experiments...which then trigger new ideas in me to modify or try for myself what you have done. Looks like the day we have all the answers is still pretty far down the road!

I find the journey is more interesting than the final destination anyway, :mrgreen:

[Dan Cash]

A dip in shellac might do the trick.

[barrabruce]

I believe you windrider but whats " rooster water soluble lube" ???

I can't get it anywhere around here within a few hundred Km's for a start.

Prolly some monoclystaline tehno ball and stick stuff !!!!

I thought of shellac as well. maybe a spray with MR Sheen could do???

Wax and polish as you dust with MR Sheen :coffee:

[windrider919]

Manufacturer
http://www.roosterlabs.com/products.html#roosterJacket

Sold lots of places like:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/746916/rooster-jacket-waterproof-bullet-film-lube-and-paper-patch-lube-16-oz

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=163345&CAT=3753

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the post, Windrider, you've given me a lot to think about. I find that HV smokelesss loads need some sort of lube, but not much and not one that lets the patch stick to the boolit. I never thought about using diluted RoosterJacket for a patch wetter, I'll have to try that. I give my boolits a shot of dry silicone spray and let it dry before wrapping, seems to help the patch shuck properly.

Gear

[303Guy]

Thanks Windrider. Exactly what I was wondering about and exactly why I don't use wax emulsions to lube patched boolits. BUT, you have opened a new avenue - wax emulsions as a patch wetter! I've only got Turtle Wax car polish so I'll give that a try and see what happens. Now that stuff is more than a simple wax polish, it's also a detergent. I wonder if that might help bond the patch layers? I'm off to try it right now!

[303Guy]

Well, the Turtle Wax didn't work. I found another Turtle product, a cleaner with wax in it. That bonded the paper well without making it all mushy but it did not water proof it.

Anyone try boot polish? I've just tried some and that works! It goes on the surface without penetrating and easy to apply by finger. Might not be cheap but I'll try the dollar store. It's for hunting anyway.

[nanuk]

303Guy

how about a water soluble Floor wax?

[303Guy]

Ah yes. Thanks for the reminder - I had forgotten that one. That also has a built in detergent right? I know there is a wood wax emulsion but it's quite expensive and comes in larger volumes only. Floor wax is the one to try.

By the way - just a snippet of useless information - wax is never soluble in water, it's an emulsion with some agent to make it such and when it dries it becomes water repellent like any other wax. PVA paint is an emulsion too and behaves in the same way. Pretty cool stuff these emulsions. I've no idea how they work.

Mmmm... PVA paint is quite abrasive. See what I'm thinking?:roll:

[Good Cheer]

Paul Matthews documented the method he developed in his book. My brother used Matthews' water proofing method and got sub-caliber groups at 100 yards with heavy paper patched swaged spitzers in his 45-70.
I've used beeswax on paper patched muzzleloader boolits with mixed results, depending on which mold and which rifle.

[Cmasailor]

Paul Matthews documented the method he developed in his book. My brother used Matthews' water proofing method and got sub-caliber groups at 100 yards with heavy paper patched swaged spitzers in his 45-70.
I've used beeswax on paper patched muzzleloader boolits with mixed results, depending on which mold and which rifle.

+1

I was just reading it :lovebooli