My Mossberg and slugs

[Chicken Thief]

I finally got my rifle barrel from Mossberg and has shot some loads with a modified Foster slug.

12/70 paper shell
60 grains of Vv N105
2mm card wad
20mm Styrofoam wad
685 gr midified Foster slug with LLA

The styrofoam will take up space so the slug wont rattle around.

I will measure speed next sunday

Here is 10 shots at 50m with a 4x32 scope on the barrel:
The 3 small holes are .45"
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010846.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010847.jpg

[longbow]

Looks good!

Did you fill the hollow base with anything?

I would have figured the card and styrofoam would be pushed up into the hollow base if not filled.

What alloy did you use?

Did you recover any slugs?

Curious minds want to know!

Thanks,
Longbow

[UNIQUEDOT]

That's a very impressive 50m 10 shot group!

[Chicken Thief]

As you can see the Lyman mould is as i said heavily modified. It has been enlarged with 3 driving bands to .733" and the HB plug has been substituted with a flat base plug.
I cast from straight WW aircooled.

Funny thing, the first couple of shots wanishes into the dirt bank but subsequent shots tend to dig them out to the surface again.

Mould:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010848.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010849.jpg

Recovered boolits compared to newly cast:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010850.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010851.jpg

As you can see the styrofoam tend to cling to the LLA:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010852.jpg

Nice rifling marks:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010853.jpg

[longbow]

Oh, I got you now! The first photos looked to me like there was still a hollow base.

I was wondering why you wouldn't have made it solid. I guess the extra weight should have been a clue ~ Doh!

Those look good and are shooting well for you. They are sure taking the rifling well too.

I have given up on HB slugs and have gone to a solid with attached wad. I have more testing to do yet but so far they are looking good. We are into archery season now and I have a couple of shoots coming up so won't be getting much if any slug shooting done for a while yet. I am shooting smoothbore though.

I will be interested to see how these do at longer range too.

Following with interest.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I might try a shot card on the boolit base to be sure that styrofoam is not getting attached as an irregular wad to the boolit base. Could be a possible reason for any flyers.
But that sure gets my attention. You have one fine mastadon masher going here.
Mike in Peru

[Chicken Thief]

Yeah missionary i have thought of that too.
Part of the learning curve.
Need only be a paper wad.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Except he didn't have any flyers,,,, Pretty nice group! especially for a shotgun.

Randy

[Chicken Thief]

It is a rifle!

[amstaffer]

where did you get the mold ??????

[nfg]

VERY NICE!!!!!! I have about 100 hollow base slugs that look a lot like yours that I haven't tried yet. I've been thinking of filling a few with molten lead and trying them out...You just convinced me to stop thinking and get to doing.

You definitely have a keeper load there, I'm not sure I would change a thing, just chrono and check /adjust the drop out to whatever max range you feel comfortable with.

What brand/number barrel did the good deed and was it ported or not?

How long is the slug?

Did you roll crimp?

What was the finished cartridge length?

And, by any chance, do you have a water weight for that case?

I ran some rough data through QL and came up with ~1650 fs with that amount of powder, a COAL of 2.60" and a bullet length of 0.800" and a case H2O volume of 260 gr H2O.

Please post your velos...it will be interesting to see if there is any sort of match.

Left slug weighs 800 gr and the right weighs ~640 gr, and mic 0.727".
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/IM12ALSO/003-1.jpg

[hubel458]

A real nice job on that 12ga mold.

Is styrofoam wad from BPI or some other retailer or did
you make it?? I think a wad from styrofoam is too soft and
spongy and could give too much once in a while and give a
hang-fire or mis-fire. Curious to see what you'd get with
plastic seal and regular fiber wads.


Who has the V V 105 powder. I can't find any.Ed

[Greg5278]

NFG, are those slugs from Me?
They look a bit familiar, and I'm sure not too many have the Sizing Die to do that.
They are the Reject Rapine design.
Greg

[nfg]

That's and affirmative, Greg. :bigsmyl2: I never got around to trying either of those. Waiting for the right moment. I liked your 760 S.W. so well I've almost shot those all up, then lost where you went, got involved with one project after the other, had some health problems, etc...you know how life goes. That 12GaFH was eating my lunch so much I just worked up a good load for the 760 and one for the 1040 and quit testing.

I have so many projects going on all the time I have a hard time remembering WHAT I'm working on, at what time. Now I'm into casting for this 20ga/600NE wannabee. Never a dull moment except when the snow flies move in.

I just pored the base hollow of the 640 and turned it down flush and it came out 792 gr on one digital scale and 783.4 on the jewlers digital...another project on the list.:shock:

[Chicken Thief]

A real nice job on that 12ga mold.

Is styrofoam wad from BPI or some other retailer or did
you make it?? I think a wad from styrofoam is too soft and
spongy and could give too much once in a while and give a
hang-fire or mis-fire. Curious to see what you'd get with
plastic seal and regular fiber wads.


Who has the V V 105 powder. I can't find any.Ed

The idea is to "emulate" some air in the cartridge. I depend on the spongynes to absorb some of the powders initial pressure. In other words it's there to stop the projectile gliding backwards, and if i could i would discard with it.
It's homemade:
A piece of thinwalled brass tubing @19mm~3/4" inside diameter.
Sharpend on the outside and it has 4 small notches to make it work like a saw.
An adapter that stays in the drill chuck.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010887.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010889.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010888.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010890.jpg

[hubel458]

How much seating pressure is put on the slug and wad.
Do you roll crimp.

Have you and others used the foam
for a while with good results. Ed

[Chicken Thief]

I rollcrimp to a specific length so the rounds should be the same as to seating depth and pressure.

I set the Thick cardwad directly on the powder and use a handtool to do that (some resistence), the styrofoam and thin top paper wad is handseated with my thump and the boolit is dropped into place. Then i crimp.

So far i have shot 75-85 shots made like this and was it not for a flat 9V battery in my Chrono then i would have speeds now. But they will have to wait until sunday.

[hubel458]

Have you chronoed yet, curious to see if it
matches computer program and how well
the VV 105 works for speed.ED

[Chicken Thief]

Brought the chrono last sunday, but apperently the buggers run on this newfangled electricity stuf. So i bought a 9V packet and will chrono this sunday.

[HDS]

Thats a real interesting mold modification, who did it? Or how was it done?

I bet you would have a very nice full bore foster slug for a smooth bore if you put the hollow base pin in it. Just what I am looking for infact.

[Chicken Thief]

The mould was modified on a lathe for the 3 driving bands.
The brass "plug"/bottom i made to my liking.
I have cast @450 boolits so i can return the mould now.

In the future i will order a mould from accuratemolds.com

[Chicken Thief]

Speeds not as hot as i thought!

50gr Vv N105 = @ 338m/s~1110fps
60gr Vv N105 = @ 366m/s~1200fps

But out of a 3,8kg~8lbs rifle they will get your attension.

More loads to follow.

[felix]

Naw, that's fast enough for a modern, rifled Brown Bess! ... felix

[hubel458]

In our loadings takes 90gr of IMR 4759 to get 700 gr slugs
in 3" plastic case to 1800 in 24" barrel. Lab tested. And
90gr of V V 110 does about the same.That is with strong
plastic cupped seals and fiber wads. Plastic cup seals better
than flat cards.

In fact flat card seals need good stiff wads to keep
them from tipping on ignition. Does the 60gr load extract
ok, if so go up a little as well as use a better seal.
Also case thickness affects how good thr sealing is.
I found that Remington STS plastic cases with good plastic seal
had largest outside diameter whiich gives better support from
chamber and less expansion affecting sealing. Rem cases gave
me an extra 50 plus fps compare to others with thinner sides.Ed

[Chicken Thief]

I went to the range today testing loads with slow rifle powder.

Last sunday was a learning session!
Theres not enough/to much power in a shotshell primer. In a 70mm~2 3/4" shell it will push powder, wad and boolit until the boolit engages the rifling, but it is not powerfull enough to ignite the powder, just scorch it.
So i duplexed the load with 10 grains of 4f BP. That made the difference and ensured good ignition every time.
Loads were 120gr, 130gr and 140gr of Vv N133.
I just tested for signs of high pressure and found nonehttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/dancinguy-1.gif
In theory the 140gr load should result in: 28000psi~1950bar, 2120fps~645m/s and 6900flbs~9350j
I list my loads and if anyone dublicate them and use them in a break action gun and gets scrapnal into his head then all power to him. Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid!


So next sunday is chrono day

[hubel458]

The VV133 is too slow with too much deterrent and that is why it
needs a starter powder. Pressure will be only about 14,000 psi by my formula.
VV 110 in little lesser amounts would be better and no starter powder needed.
Did you ever completely test the VV105 for a max load up to that
which would have slight drag on extraction and top velocity for that max load..
Can you get RE-17 there, it is slow powder that ignites without starter powder.Ed

[Chicken Thief]

Vv N105 maxes out on pressure @ 70-80 grains and dont deliver the speed i'm getting now (only 1250fps'ish).
RE-17 is a Bofors powder and i can get it as Rhino-17 or Norma URP. I assume (from burn speed) that you mean RE-7?
I have Vv N110 on order and will continue testing.

I dont need all that power and speed (but it's fun ;) )but i like to experiment and probably will settle in the 15-1600fps range.
I will also buy 76mm~3" shells to eliminate the gap in the chamber the slug has to take when using shorter 70mm~2 3/4" shells.
A pistol grip stock is on order so i dont smack the snot out of my middle finger with the trigger guard.

[hubel458]

Yes a pistol grip will make it much easier to hold on to. I use thumbhole ones
as much as possible.

You definately need the longest case the chamber will hold for powder room and are you
using good plastic powder seals yet, as I figured you should have got more
speed from the top load of VV105. If using cards to much leakage.
All my tests with 'slower' powders in 12ga were with 3" cases or longer
and 3.5" is better yet.

As for powder I really meant ""Alliant RE-17"". It is the only medium slow powder
in cannister for reloaders , that shotgun primers will ignite in 12ga diameter size cases.
And case diameter is great factor relative to primer strength, in how well ignition works.
And all shotgun primers are as strong as rifle primers, and some are stronger.
RE17 is made for Alliant by a big Swiss powder company.And it is a new design
of rifle powder type that has the deterent that regulates speed all through
the kernel, as opposed to nearly all deterent on the surface. That is why it
ignites easier, even though a slower powder.
Also, can you get IMR 4759 there.

Other faster rifle type powders, I've found, and I have been able test them all;
that shotgun primers ignite ok, in all temperatures, are VV105- VV110- IMR 4759
and Alliant Steel. Now Steel is called a real slow shotgun powder, but it is just a slower
version of 4759 type. Now these are slower than regular fast shotgun powders,
that is why I call them 'slower' powder loads.They are slower than fast shotgun
powders. Ed

[Chicken Thief]

Per se i dont "need" the wad, the boolit is @ .005" over size ie. .735" to a 730" rifling. Just as a normal rifle.

Different from you i use plastic hulls and so far i have'nt found a way to hold the boolit in place so i can keep room/air over the powder. I use a piece of styrofoam and hope it acts as a spring simulating "air". When i did'nt get the airspeed i wanted with the Vv N105 i switched to the fastest rifle powder i had in the safe and that was Vv N133.
I will experiment further with Vv N110 wich is Vv's fastest rifle powder.

As to RE-17
Looking at a chart it is in the burning range of Vv N150.
I used Vv N133 today and it will not burn clean at the pressures i get so switching to a way slower powder can only lead to 40-50% of the powder being pushed out the front as the boolit exits. Whats the point in that?

I will try to "invent" a way to close a plastic hull in a way that will give a decent shot start pressure aiding in a better/cleaner burn.
I roll crimp but will try a star crimp with the center melted shut.

[hubel458]

The loads I have shown above are plastic hulls, the lab tests using 4759, etc,
were with 3" plastic hulls.

And short stubby slugs relative to the 12ga bore size will not seal like longer rifle
bullets in rifle chambers, without a powder seal, a good powder seal. The 12ga has a long
taper cone from the end of chamber into barrel, longer than the slug. Got to have seal...

AND WIth these loads you must NOT have airspace between powder and
slug in plastic cases and I don't even allow airspace in my 12ga brass cases.
I use good seals and where needed wads to take up any space. IF the slow powder
load fills the case to the bottom of one seal and the slug, as long as powder is
the right one it works great. And with slow powders you don't need wads for
cushions to moderate peak pressures low enough to no over-expand plastic cases.
But no airspace, as it might lead to SEE amd blow up the gun.

Even though RE17 is slower on the chart than VV133 that has nothing to do with
how easy it ignites. It ignites easy because of how it is made. I said VV133 is to slow
because it also ignites too hard like most rifle powders in that large diameter case.
I should have explained it better in above post.
And you want to use as much of RE17 in 3" cases like the amounts you are using of the VV133.
Don't go below 120gr with RE17.. With VV110 and IMR 4759 don't go below 75gr.
And nearly all of the RE17 will burn clean with good fast loads with good seals.
I have no residue with heavy loads. And powder. seal, wad where needed
and slug column must be compressed hard with the crimp.
By hard, I mean that a day after loading, that the slug
can not be moved around in the case with a pointed
punch or something like that...Ed

[Chicken Thief]

Ok you sold me, i'll get some RE-17 (Alliant). It's fun in the making http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/yahoo-1.gif

[hubel458]

One other question-- can you folks get heavy sided cases there like
the REM STS, which works best for me with slug loads, with slow powders
in larger amounts. Like those with taper thickness on the sides.
With more powder there is a longer powder and seal column up to the
bottom of the slug; the seal is further up from the bottom than with
lesser amounts of fast powder,and thicker sided cases give a tighter fit.
Less give so that ignition is better, sealing better for extra speed.
In most heavier cases the extra thickness is to inside and an
extra .005" thick don't seem like much but it makes them stronger
and in conjunction with stronger base that better cases have,
you can get 10% more speed which is 20% more energy.Ed

[Chicken Thief]

Without knowing what i'm talking about, i would say no.

Here's pretty much what i can get at a regular basis: www.siarm.com
Shotgun reloading is non existent in Denmark.
They do list some hulls as "shived" or non "shived". i dont know exactly what that means but i suspect it is an extra "cupping" in the bottom of the case. To better resist pressure and deformation?
I need to buy some of each to get the difference.

[pipehand]

CkickenThief- That's "skived". Skiving thins/tapers the mouth of the case for star crimping. The un-skived are supposed to be better for roll crimping. Has nothing to do with the base cavity or capacity. Neat project. Thanks for posting it.

[Chicken Thief]

Thanks for the info mate!