Copper Plating - Success

[22lover]

OK, so I'm only doing one at a time at this point. However, I believe I have a repeatable process that can be scaled.

Through much trial and error, here are the things I've learned:

1) The "pickle" stage, in my case, must be many hours long. I'm using battery acid.
2) Very low voltage is used - about 1-1.5V. Cranking the voltage up causes the black powdery sludge to form almost immediately. Keeping it low avoids the sludge altogether. Current is kept at less than .5 amps. Plating distance in my case is only 2-3 inches from the cathode.
3) Plating time is a couple hours for an even, seemingly durable coverage
4) Tossing the as-plated product into a brass tumbler (corn cob) polishes it up nice and shiny....just like "store bought" !

Anyway, I've made some videos where you can see the process. This is only experimental at this time. I am not doing this in "lab conditions" by any stretch.

Part One is below. You should be able to navigate to all 5 parts after watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to4j54vC8n4

[buyobuyo]

Looks good. Do you know how thick your copper plating is?

[22lover]

I don't. Judging from the amount of rubbing/steel brush/tumbling I can do w/o affect I'm guessing it's a decent thickness. I've got qty 4 .38 specials cleaning right now in prep to go into the plating bucket. I'll measure before and after if I can find my darn calipers.

Also going to try plating some cast buckshot using a perforated ziplock bag to hang the shot into the solution. It will be challenging.

[runfiverun]

there are a couple of video's on the u-tube showing thier set-ups.
the dude with the recirculating coffee maker set up has a very good system.
and is how i would do it if i had the inclination to copper plate boolits.

[22lover]

Yes that guy's videos are good. I like his setup too...very clever.

The longer term goal for me is to get this into a small barrel-plating setup. Let's face it, no one wants to plate one boolit at a time. What I'm doing is trying to prove out a process that produces repeatable and durable results. I have some design ideas scribbled down for the barrel thing. I have to do a lot of math on the surface areas, etc., before attempting. However, it seems conceptually doable with junk I already have sitting around in the garage.

[Roger Ronas]

Very interesting. I found parts 1-4 but unable to locate part 5.

Rog

[22lover]

Sorry, I'm new to youtube and don't know how to set it up right. Here are all 5 parts.

1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to4j54vC8n4
2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Tbq7_IgkE
3- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HINFiFxsDA
4- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obzhBktSKsM
5- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWF9jBo-oS8

[zxcvbob]

I used to do small nickel plating, mostly over brass or copper, 30-something years ago. I built my own adjustable current power supply. (not as impressive as it sounds, a transformer, one variable resistor, and a power transistor on a huge heat sink. And an ammeter.) Trying to adjust the current density by tweaking the voltage knob is probably frustrating. The voltage doesn't matter once you get over about 1 volt, the current is the thing.

If I recall correctly, the easiest way to degrease that I found was to use a (hot?) sodium carbonate solution and my power supply -- reverse voltage, I think -- and the bubbles would scrub the surface. Then I rinsed with distilled water. I don't know what plating solution I had; it was something that I bought from a jewelry supply store.

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but maybe something is useful. :)

Congratulations on figuring out a process and a plating solution that works!

[22lover]

Good info, thanks. My plating solution is $3 of white vinegar and about $3 of copper sulphate. My power supply is adjustable for both voltage and current, so I'm lucky there. I can tweak things pretty easily. When I first began toying with this, I used a battery charger that has a 6V setting. Way overkill, even though the "bath" was only drawing half an amp or so. I'll definitely research the sodium carbonate.

[Orochimaru]

I've been working on the same thing with some success, too.

Surface prep is critical to getting good, solid plating to stick and survive re-sizing. I use acetone for degreasing and Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic) for "pickling". However, I've had some success with "purple power" as a degreaser followed by the HCl pickle.

Heat and circulation help the plating process a LOT. I use the coffee pot trick to heat my solution, and a fish tank air pump and stone to help with the circulation.

Your conclusions about current are correct. Anode surface area seems to also be a factor in how much current per bullet can be used without burning-off the crystals. I use 12 gauge copper wire to form a frame, and then use copper sheeting (available at Dick Blick art stores) to increase the surface area.

I also think that the composition of the bullet may have some impact on the plating process, too.

[22lover]

Would love to see a picture of your anode frame setup. The biggest problem I have now is that the plating almost seems too much (although I have yet to measure thickness). Although coverage is complete and even, the as-plated surface is more "rough" than "smooth," as if it's building up aggressively. It takes forever to polish the as-plated boolits in my tumbler (with corn cob) to "shiny." I know corn cob is not too aggressive, however. The good part of this is that the copper is not rubbing off. I've taken a wire brush on my drill press to it and it doesn't come off even after a few minutes.

I wonder if your HCl pickles more quickly than my sulfuric. How long do you pickle?

Oh - and this is probably important in some regard - my bullets are straight wheel weights.

[Orochimaru]

I pickle for 5-10 minutes after a similar length of time degreasing. Sometimes longer, but I've not been able to correlate longer than 10 minutes with better..

Circulation and heat will help the smoothness of your plating, too. I had several that were rough and hard to smooth. The copper was depositing irregularly, which has not happened since I added heat and (more importantly) circulation.


Basic setup (w/o solution):
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/Setup-Basic.png



Here is my anode setup:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/New-Anode.png

The green nozzles are intake (low) and output (high) from the coffee maker.



My tongs (12 gauge solid) holding a pickled bullet:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/Pickled.png



In action:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/In-Action1.png
(I've since learned that alligator-clips to improve the connection between the tongs and the horizontal cathode wire are vital!)



Results (after a quick pass w/wire brush and a run through the resizing die):
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/Plated-And-Sized.png


Slight over-current (still polished ok):
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/ExcessCurrent-Mild.png

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Plating/GoodPlate.png

[22lover]

Very, very nice! Mine look the same as yours out of the bath. I'll post pics of my results later today.

What is your plating time? Are you using straight distilled water + copper sulfate or are you using an acid?

[Superfly]

intersting how much you going to charge me to plate about 30 000 boolits i need em next week ?????


Jaime

[zxcvbob]

Citric acid might be worth a try, because it's a pretty good chelating agent and it complexes with copper.

[Orochimaru]

Right now, I'm running Copper Sulfate as the solution. I'll give citric acid a try, though, and see how it works.

At 400ma per bullet, I usually let it run about 15 minutes to plate to 2 mills per side, about 30-40 minutes doubles that thickness. Heating the mixture makes more copper ions available for plating. If I heat it once, and let it cool while plating (just circulation, no heat running), a 40 minute plate may only produce 2 mills.

The shape seems to matter, too. I'm sure it has something to do with charge/surface shape physics. The 230RN plated like a son of a gun without as much cleaning/prep as some of the others required.

[edit -- forgot to mention something]

Oh -- yes. I start with Distilled water to make the solution. I'm also very interested in your idea for tumble plating, as it could conceivable simplify a few things.

I picked up a nice bit of copper tubing for $5.00 at Menard's today. Thin tubing, about 1/4" OD. It might make a better anode frame than what I've got, plus it has more surface area. I'll report my progress as time permits (work is going to be nuts the next couple of weeks).

[22lover]

Yes I have seen the same thing regarding shape. I tried many times to plate a 38 special SWC with less than great results. Now I can do them fine, but only after the extensive pickle time (overnight). I found that any sharp edge or "drop off" in the bullet profile will cause a quick plating buildup which does not adhere well. Only after the cleaning improvement and slowing the process WAY down did I achieve good results.

I'll be working on the barrel plating experiment over the next several weeks. I'm sure it will be fraught with many, many things to overcome. Will keep you posted.

[Orochimaru]

I'll be working on the barrel plating experiment over the next several weeks. I'm sure it will be fraught with many, many things to overcome. Will keep you posted.

Ah -- but that is half the fun! ;-)

I *love* a good challenge!


Surface prep is an odd thing when it comes to plating. I've done a couple where I started with commercial bullets (all lubed up, etc, etc) and hardly did any prep -- and had them plate just fine! Others, I prepped like crazy only to have a disappointing result. Go figure! [smilie=b:

I'm *finally* up and running casting my own boolits (yeah, I'm a casting noob), so I can control what goes in, the lube (or lack thereof), etc... I'll report what I learn with regard to boolit composition and plating.

[22lover]

Yes, the challenge is what keeps me going on this! I'm a big tinkerer.

I'm very encouraged by my buckshot experiment today. At first, I tried to plate too many at once and it was a mess. Should have known - WAY too much surface area for my anode and power supply. So, I ditched those and plated 3 only. Will take a picture and post shortly. They came out really well.

Another idea - computer power supplies have a 3.3V rail. I believe these can deliver 10-15 amps @ 3.3V. I'm thinking an old junker computer power supply, with a little modification, could make a really dandy (and cheap) plating supply.

[22lover]

Some of today's output....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/wchrisma/DSC_4732.jpg

[zxcvbob]

That looks good!

BTW, in case it wasn't clear I was talking about using citric acid to acidify your copper sulfate (instead of vinegar), not to use instead of copper sulfate.

Another chemical additive to play with is hydrogen peroxide, but don't use much.

[Orochimaru]

Yes -- I understand what you're saying about Citric Acid to acidify the electrolyte. I've seen some people use H2SO4, but I don't have any handy!

One person (from another forum, I forget which) added some Chlorine Bleach that he claimed smoothed the plating process. I don't understand what that would get me (other than some Chlorine gas released if my electrolyte is acidic)...


22lover -- those look VERY good!

I've thought about various power supplies, too. The idea of using a switching supply with a hefty 3.3 or 5V rail is good. It is trivial to "fool" a newer supply and get it to turn on without a motherboard present. However, what is not trivial is limiting the current if you've got less than a full batch of bullets. And, with a full batch of bullets, 3.3v might be insufficient potential difference to draw enough current.

Oh well -- more fun challenges!

[zxcvbob]

You might want to look for a purer piece of copper for your anode. Impurities in copper pipe or wire might poison your plating solution. (OTOH, the solution you're using is really cheap)

[Orochimaru]

You might want to look for a purer piece of copper for your anode. Impurities in copper pipe or wire might poison your plating solution. (OTOH, the solution you're using is really cheap)

Good points. I've just been using copper I have sitting around -- leftover wire from a circuit install, copper sheets left over from an electronics project, etc. I have no idea how pure it is (although I expect somewhat less than more!).

My solution developed a greenish hue after sitting for a couple of days. I usually pour it out of the anode bath, but I got busy with work and didn't think about it. It still seems to work okay, but perhaps I'm due for a fresh batch.

Speaking of which...

Eventually, I'm going to have to dispose of this stuff, and I know copper in solution is a bad thing. A similar discussion came up on an electronics forum (copper enters solution during circuit board etching) and somebody mentioned a reaction to precipitate out copper. My chemistry is so rusty, I can't remember the reaction involved... anyone have any ideas on safe disposal of worn-out electrolyte?

[zxcvbob]

Sodium carbonate (washing soda) or sodium hydroxide (lye) will probably precipitate it out as copper hydroxide. My chemistry is also kind of rusty.

[Orochimaru]

I figured either a carbonate or a base would precipitate it out. Carbonate or bi-carb was what we talked about in the electronics world for neutralizing the leftovers from PCB etching (which also puts copper in to solution). I'll give that a try! Thanks!

[22lover]

Could you not just use it as the copper sulphate was intended initially...i.e., pour it on a stump or down your home sewer? I could be way off base here with what the solution has transformed into subsequent to the plating process, so correct me if I'm wrong. In my case the acid is vinegar which is innocuous.

Anyway, I haven't had much time to further my "studies" the past week - except for a marginal run of buckshot where I was seeing massive fluctuations in current. I think this came from the many pieces of shot making contact, then not, creating massive changes in surface area during the process. Even though at many points I left it all still, the current fluctuation still occured. My shot isn't perfectly spherical, although it looks good. The fact that's it's not perfect leads me to belive that some pieces are shifting position minutely and creating large changes of shot-to-shot continuity within the batch. I have to come up with a way to tumble. I should have some time next weekend to continue devising. Interestingly, I'm a little more excited about the buckshot than the boolits at the moment. I believe (perhaps mistakenly) that if I can perfect tumbling buckshot, I can do the same for the simpler bullet profiles (a la the 230gr Lee RN).

With multiple folks working on this concurrently, I believe we'll eventually be onto something we can scale!

[koehlerrk]

Something I've ran across a few places is that aluminum doesn't electroplate. So whatever you're using as a contact inside the drum, aka, the cathode connection, if made from aluminum won't pick up plating.

I'm thinking building a drum myself, hoping to use it to plate everything from buckshot to 22 boolits for my hornet to maybe 30 cals.... If I made the drum from PVC pipe, so it has a smooth interior, and set the boolits inside it aligned with the pipe axis, they should just roll and roll...

[Rangefinder]

Yes, aluminum DOES plate. I've made accents for my bike out of T6 aluminum and had it chromed. I'm not sure of the entire process, but copper is one of the base metals before the chrome goes on.

[22lover]

PVC for the drum is exactly what I have in mind. Another challenge is how to turn the barrel...need high torque, low rotational speed. I noodled on that one for a while with thoughts of a gear train and such. Then I did some more internet surfing and found some guy (don't have the URL handy) that used an electric BBQ rotisserie. Brilliant! I just happen to have one. :twisted:

[koehlerrk]

Rangefinder, yes, aluminum can be plated, but from what I've seen you need to use a chemical process to establish a base plating, sometimes called a flash, and then you can electroplate over that.

But aluminum by itself won't electro-plate, sorry if I didn't make that distinction.

22lover, yeah, I'm trying to figure out how all I'm going to put this all together myself. Likely going to take me a while, still acquiring the pieces and parts. Bigger power supply, old coffee pot to steal the heater out of, etc.... Once I get the rest of the parts, I'll build my drum.

In the meantime, I'm planning to get my feet wet in electroplating by building a small dip tank and hanging some boolits to start plating. Should be a good way to start.

[22lover]

koehlerrk - yep, that's what I think most of us are doing at the moment. I don't have the old coffee pot (yet) but have found that I can produce durable (doesn't come off when sized) plating at ambient temperature. It is definitely not optimal conditions, however. My current setup is nothing more than a paint mixing bucket, a power supply, the solution (Zep + vinegar), and some thick copper ground wire. I use very thin gauge copper wire to hang the bullet in the solution.

Check out Orochimaru's setup further up in the thread. I believe he is the furthest down the learning curve.

[runfiverun]

copper sulphide is used in sewers to remove tree roots.
some add clorine for the water treatment and are probably trying to avoid using distilled water.
the copper sulphide and distilled water would be the easiest to get and dispose of.
you only need about 1.5 ma with it to plate about 30-40 or so boolits at a time.

[Rangefinder]

Copper sulphide is what I used when I was playing with this. You can find it at the hardware store in the section for plumbing and septic--saying so because I wasted about a half hour searching the home and garden section first. My power supply was a battery charger set on 2A trickle--way more than what is actually needed. A few tips to help get a good bond with the base metal that I found was to first polish the boolit with a medium-coarse steel wool, then soak in acetone to remove any trace oils and impurities from the surface. I had my best luck with hollow points because I could twist a sheet metal screw into the nose and get a good, even plating because it was pulling current evenly through the boolit from the center. I got it to work pretty well, but decided it was way more trouble than the minor benefits were worth. Lower left is the results on a HP SWC for my .40S&W though. It's interesting and was fun to do for the sake of accomplishment--just left it at that.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/hillsjim/DSCF0135.jpg

[zxcvbob]

It's copper sulfate, not sulfide. ;)

[Rangefinder]

^^^YES---THAT is the stuff^^^ I'm not a chemist. I don't even play one on TV! :D