Why is my black powder so dirty?

[x101airborne]

Went to the range yesterday with my 54 hawken and some Goex FFg. I shot all kinds of projectiles including patched round ball, saboted 44 cals, paper patched 50 cals, etc. I tried several different charges trying to clear up the fowling. That stuff was so dirty in the 54, I had to clean after every shot. And the barrel was coated HEAVILY with a thick black goop the consistency of a melted black crayon. Is my powder old? Should I try FFFg? We are having high humidity right now, could that be the problem?

Opinions wanted!

[Geraldo]

Goex is dirtier than some powders, such as Grafs (made by Wano). As far as humidity goes, it seems to me that it's easier to deal with BP fouling here in the humidity of Florida than it was when I lived in the Midwest. I wipe between shots for consistency, so I can't help you much on that count as I couldn't tell you how many shots I can fire before the fouling makes it hard to load.

You're probably going to get a lot of replies from the "natural lube seasons the barrel folks" but I don't buy into that.

I can't imagine that plastic sabots help the fouling situation, but never having used them that's just a guess.

There's my initial opinions and guesses, worth every dime of what you paid for them. ;)

[Boz330]

I never had much luck with my 54 either and Goex. It is a dirtier powder but even Swiss doesn't give that many more shots in the larger bores. They just seem to foul more. OTOH my 40 will shoot all day with 3F Goex and moose milk patch lube and no cleaning. I hope someone comes up with a good answer though.

Bob

[Lead Fred]

Holy black does not get old, and FF is what you want for 54 cal.

If you are using petrolium based oil in your barrel, STOP.

Wash yer barrel out with hot soapy water (Dawn works real good).
Get the barrel as hot as you can.

Next season with Thompson's 1000+ bore butter.

Use pre soaked patches with 1000+ bore butter, or Thompson's number 13 cleaner.

You wont have fouling sticking any more

I built my flinter 8 years ago, and have never washed the barrel to date.
I use only 1000+ products.

[Boerrancher]

I would try changing things up a bit with lubes, and increase the powder charge. If your gun is fouling up after the first shot, you have an incompatible lube, or you are not generating enough pressure with your charge to get full ignition and a clean burn. The higher pressure the cleaner the burn will be. Goex is the dirtiest of all the commercial black powders, but you still should still get several shots off before it fouls up so much you can't load it.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Maven]

Joe's correct on both counts: lube issue + Goex being a dirtier powder than say, Wano/Graf's. Now as for "seasoning" your bore, has anyone read this?

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/pid/918147/post/last/m/1/#LAST

[Geraldo]

Joe's correct on both counts: lube issue + Goex being a dirtier powder than say, Wano/Graf's. Now as for "seasoning" your bore, has anyone read this?

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/pid/918147/post/last/m/1/#LAST

Yes I have and I'm glad he wrote it.

[waksupi]

When changing projectile types, clean the bore fairly well before the switch. This wil lhelp some.
As far as the Bore Butter stuff goes, in this climate, you are out of business as far as loading in under a dozen shots.
Don't be shy about trying 3f. I shoot it in everything from .32 to .62.

[x101airborne]

Im gonna have to do something. I am using Bore Butter as a lube already and CLP as an after cleaning lubricant. Never mind getting a follow up shot. I CANNOT shoot two rounds without straining to seat the round. And I am worried about not getting the round seated fully. I just cannot figure out what the heck is going on.
I dont mind only shooting 3 or so shots without cleaning, but one and clean isn't going to cut it.

[tomme boy]

Are you cleaning the CLP out before you shoot? That might be what is going on.

[mooman76]

Probably the bore butter. It's an ok lube but I have to swab the barrel more often when I use it. I use it sparingly and don't have to swab every shot but every few or my groups get big quick.

[FLINTNFIRE]

As a footnote Winchester suttler page for civil war reenactors states the following
Historic note about the granulation of black powder:
If you read original documentation you will find reference to using 2fg powder. (The #FG or FFG or FFFG refers to how fine the powder is ground. The more "F's" the finer the powder.) At the turn of the century - 1900 - the standards for measuring the granulation of powder changed.
That which they called 2fg is now equivilant to what we now call FFFg.
In short... today... Fg is primarily used for cannons, FFg is cannon primer grade, FFFg is musket and revolver powder.
Reenactors shooting blanks like FFg
- because the larger grains burn slower causing more "blast" effect at the muzzle.
Competition shooters find better accuracy with FFFg
- because the finer granulation burns faster and more consistent.

I use the bore butter , I also clean with the hot soapy water , and all my flinters and 58 enfields , and my thompson centers all shoot fine shot after shot , with each respective pure lead ball ,minie , or maxie

[waksupi]

Im gonna have to do something. I am using Bore Butter as a lube already and CLP as an after cleaning lubricant. Never mind getting a follow up shot. I CANNOT shoot two rounds without straining to seat the round. And I am worried about not getting the round seated fully. I just cannot figure out what the heck is going on.
I dont mind only shooting 3 or so shots without cleaning, but one and clean isn't going to cut it.

I have two words for you.

Moose Milk.

[waksupi]

I will give you some clues why Bore Butter is not that great of lube.
The main ingredient is beeswax. Okay, that is an acceptable lube base for most shooting. But, there is not enough heat generated in a muzzle loader barrel, to efficiently remove the residue from the barrel each shot, so, you get a build up.
The next ingredient is olive oil, or a very close flash rate oil. Same problem as beeswax. Very high flash point, and it continues to build in the bore.
As both of these ingredients continue to build in a bore, they will pick up more and more fouling, until they finally render the firearm impossible to load. Those who say they have good luck with it must be blessed with good climate conditions that will permit the fouling to stay soft, or they do not shoot competition, with a long string of shots. I know no one in the winner circle using it for a lube.
I've only been in the game for around 40 years, and have only built 200 or so muzzle loaders, so I may not know what the hell I'm talking about.

[longbow]

Just another thought.

I used to have a not so good replica of a Remington Zouave. It fouled horribly! I got so frustrated with it I traded it to a friend who wanted it and had something I wanted.

His solution was to lap the barrel. there seemed to be a bad spot a few inches from the breech where the minies would often stick and have to be pounded down, sometimes after just a couple of shots. After a good lapping he never seemed to have any fouling problems at all.

I suspect that the bore was poorly reamed or had rough rifling, or both, and fouling built up in the rough spots. In any case, it performed much better after lapping.

If different lube or powder doesn't solve the problem then it might be worth trying some fire lapping or hand lapping.

I'm with waksupi on the 3F powder too. I always found it burned cleaner in my guns all the way to 12 ga.

Longbow

[Maven]

"...saboted 44 cals, paper patched 50 cals, etc. ...." x101airborne

x101, That could be your problem as they don't carry much or any lube (saboted .44cals.). It practically a given to have to damp swab the bore after firing them. Don't ask how I know this!

[wgr]

i have found taht if you shoot sabots or full bore lead rounds you need to clean the plastic and or lead out befor it will shoot patch round balls.

[Flinchrock]

I use Ballistoil/water 1/7,,and wet the patch,,swabs as I shoot...

[x101airborne]

I carry a small baby shampoo bottle of 3/4 purified water, 1/4 alcahol, and a tablespoon of dawn. This has given me the FASTEST cleanups while in the field and that is what I am using to clean with. But till I figure out what is up with this fouling, hunting with it is futile. Unless I just want to carry a pistol anyway.

[DIRT Farmer]

Barrels are sometimes strange, I have a fifty flinter that will shoot all day with tallow lubed patches 60 grains of ffg Goex and round ball. Any other lube and things go south fast.

In my shotguns there is a noticable increase in recoil fatigue after a long string of targets with fffg over shooting ffg. Shooting clay targets it is not unusual to run 200 shots in a day.

In my two muskets, a Springfield and a two band Enfield both reproductions the is a definate improvement in scores with fffg and miniballs.

Some lots of Goex do run dirty. If I get a good batch I keep it for rifles and use any problems up in the shotguns. It doesn't take long to burn a case shooting skeet and sporting clays.

[Boerrancher]

I know where there is an old ML 12 ga. It is old old old, and I bet I could talk the guy out of it for $50 dollars. The barrels on it look good, not all dented up. It has a good even patina on the metal, the but stock and fore stock are not too bad, just ugly. I am guessing it is walnut and finished with linseed oil, lots and lots of linseed oil. It is almost black. The hammers and nipples don't look too bad on it, and that is all I know about it other than it needs a ram rod.

It would be worth the money to buy it and go to the local gun club for their shot gun shoots. Lots of sporting clays and trap shooting. It would be great for the Annie Oakley round. Each time I was up the smoke would make sure the guy next to me couldn't put me out if I missed, because he couldn't see the bird to shoot it.

Best wishes,

Joe

[x101airborne]

OY, Joe. If you could get it for that, I will take it and pay the shipping. Just let me know if it is possible. I would love that shotgun. PM for details

[Boerrancher]

Trey my friend, If I can get it for that I am going to keep it and play with it. I have been looking for a way to aggravate the guys at the gun club for years because all they want to to is shoot shot guns. They have an antique match that by their rules I can shoot it in. Most guys use the old model 12's, but I think a front stuffer would be a good bit of alright, especially if I could place with it. There is a lot of stuff shirts their from St Louis that look down their noses at as hill folk, even though they can't shoot as well. I will give them something to look down their noses at.

Best wishes,

Joe

[451 Pete]

Some types of powder leave more fouling than others because of the differences in manufacturing from one company to another. The charcoal , how it is made and from what type of wood , is the main variable causing this and may be partially causing the " black goop " you mentioned in your bore.

Back when the first batch's of the old Elephant Powder came out it would leave a similar fouling residue to what you mentioned. About 2 years later they changed the type of wood to a buckthorn alder and took the time to remove the bark. This greatly improved the quality of the powder and removed the problem of the mess that the fouling residue made.

Up to about 50% of the volume of your powder charge with black powder can be left after burning in soot and salts. A good lubricant will attack the fouling and soften it to allow your rifle to be easier to reload. Lubricants can be liquids , pastes or greases and seem to work best in that order. I have gotten away from most grease type lubricants as I have found that they do little to soften up the fouling. Remember that your lube should be something that softens the fouling and helps to break it down.

Just my thoughts ..... Pete

[PanaDP]

Are you giving it a few long, deep breaths down the barrel before you reload? That helps me a lot. It adds moisture from your breath to the fowling and softens it so when you press the ball home, the fowling more easily pushes down the barrel ahead of it.

[Hang Fire]

Ever shoot the old Elephant BP from few years back? Was the filthest stuff imaginable.

[dualsport]

Fouling is one thing. "thick black goop" is another. Haven't seen that one. No ideas but 'goop' implies moisture in some form to my thinking.

[Hanshi]

Went to the range yesterday with my 54 hawken and some Goex FFg. I shot all kinds of projectiles including patched round ball, saboted 44 cals, paper patched 50 cals, etc. I tried several different charges trying to clear up the fowling. That stuff was so dirty in the 54, I had to clean after every shot. And the barrel was coated HEAVILY with a thick black goop the consistency of a melted black crayon. Is my powder old? Should I try FFFg? We are having high humidity right now, could that be the problem?

Opinions wanted!


In actuality, there's not much difference in the "dirtiness" of the various black powders. Right at about 50% of bp combustion is solid particulates regardless of brand. Some appear to be cleaner that others for reasons other than the powder itself.

The two most important factors are patch tightness and lube. A tight patch is better at scrubbing out the previous shots fouling, all things considered. Some lubes combine with fouling to form gunk that has to be cleaned out after each shot. The worst offenders are the solid greases such as Crisco, Bore Butter, etc. These leave a thick residue that has to be removed very frequently. For those who always after every shot this doesn't represent any problem. I use Bore Butter type lubes as my lube when I go into the deer woods. There it's no big deal to have to wipe after the first shot or two since that's really all you get. At the range it's a different story.

At the range I rely on Hoppes #9 Plus BP lube. I often fire 50 round sessions with out wiping and with loading #50 just as easy as loading #1. There are other lubes (even spit) which will allow you almost unlimited shooting without having to clean that bore. This goes even for powders famous for being dirty such as the old Elephant, which I've fire extensively.

Bp is just dirty stuff and that's one of the "charms" of the stuff.

[Good Cheer]

Thumbs up on spit. Especially when you're in the boonies and aren't sitting at the bench with the shooting box. With heavies in fast twist barrels I usually have good luck with LOOB (Lanolin, Olive Oil, Beeswax).

Has anyone tried peanut butter in black powder lubes yet?

[dmize]

I have a 58 that I shoot Goex through, dont know its "moose milk" or not but its a combination of rubbing alchohol,GoJo and Murpheys oil soap I have shot 100 round matches before and last ball loaded as easy as the first with no between shot wipes. All rifles are different though. Make sure you have all oil removed from the barrel before shooting it,I run a couple patches soaked in rubbing alchohol before loading,then snap several caps. Also check your rifling twist I think your whistling in the wind trying to shoot sabots.

[Boerrancher]

I have noticed that for many consecutive shots with out swabbing in between, usually requires a patch lube that has water in it. I have never had an issue with wet patches in the cold, as long as my patch material wasn't frozen to the point I couldn't load it. I always figured if my spit patch froze in the bore, as soon as the heat from the powder reaches it, it will thaw out, but for hunting I have generally used a bear grease, and in some of my guns it can be loaded over and over again with no swabbing, and no dirty fouling, and in others it is just plain nasty. In one of my Hawken Rifles if you get 3 shots with the bear grease with out getting the ball stuck you were doing good. In another you could shoot it all day, and it would burn clean, proof that each gun is different.

Best wishes,

Joe

[chg]

I agree with the 3F, burns much cleaner than 2F. I can shoot 40 to 50 times without swabbing using 3F and Three Rivers Unlimited as a patch lube. Some folks use 409 spray cleaner as a lube and for cleaning the barrels but I still like clean-up with water and Dawn. Been using the 3F exclusively for over 20 years with no problems in everything from .36 to .54 For hunting I don't use the waterbased lubes, I use minkoil.

[Boerrancher]

I have yet to try mink oil as a patch lube but I have heard nothing but good things about it so I will have to give it a try.

Best wishes,

Joe

[longbow]

My experience though somewhat dated is the same as Hanshi's. I have found more difference in fouling and performance with granulation changes than brand, though my powder selection has been limited largely to Curtis & Harvey and Goex.

3F worked well for me in all my muzzleloading and cartridge guns... except the Zouave I mentioned earlier. It is the only "problem" gun I ever owned for fouling badly and it seems the internal machining was largely to blame since lapping cured it.

To qualify, I have never shot BP cartridge at long range like many here so I won't argue the merits of 2F over 3F for that. Quite simply, I have found 3F to burn cleaner and work well in my guns.

Back to the fouling problem. My Zouve did not respond any better to different lubes either. While I agree that there are differences between guns, if the bore is good and boolit/ball fit is good why would one foul more than another? My Parker Hale Musketoon never had an issue but the Zouave was horrible.

If lube and patch changes don't cure the problem, I would carefully slug the bore to see if it has any rough spots or tight spots. Even better if the breech plug can be easily removed. If there is evidence of machine marks then I would consider lapping.

Longbow

[WolfTrap]

Donno?
But there's one thing the goes with Black Powder Sports.
You're suppose to get real dirty as well with the firearm you're using!
I break out my CVA Hawken for some shoot'n....I expect black and dirty!

[joec]

How about it is the nature of the beast, smoke, powder, blow by and dirt kind of go together.