Reloading Cast in Wolf Steel .223 Cases

[Tracy]

I picked up a couple rounds of Wolf .223 that some previous shooter had dropped on the ground at the range, awhile back. My original plan was to pull them down and reuse the bullets, but they didn't look tampered with, so this morning I shot them in my Stevens 200.

Looking into the cases, I noticed that they are Boxer primed. So just for the heck of it I ran them through my collet die, reprimed with CCI 400s, dropped in 6.4 grains of NM-04 (Chinese PB clone) and a 225415 with gascheck. Shot fine, just like the same load in a brass case.

[Janoosh]

I reload Wolf Steel cases with j-word bullets. I've found that the inside of the necks are rough. If I may ask, how hard was the boolit? Obviously gas checked. I have both Lyman 225415 and 225462 and want to use them with the steel cases. Thanks.

[legend]

for several years now i have been reloading wolf 45 acp. i have had no problems, and use them about 3 times. all loads are shot in a custom longslide useing cast boolits.

[badbob454]

BOXER IN STEEL CASES? i quit looking in them thought they were all berdan .. . ill have to start checking them out

[Freightman]

I am not sure but I think that the 40, 45, and 223 are boxer, not sure about any other.

[Tracy]

I reload Wolf Steel cases with j-word bullets. I've found that the inside of the necks are rough. If I may ask, how hard was the boolit? Obviously gas checked. I have both Lyman 225415 and 225462 and want to use them with the steel cases. Thanks.

Yes, gas checked. Alloy was air cooled wheel weights. Since I only had two of the cases, I can't really tell you much about the performance other than I hit the rocks I was aiming at. I'm thinking about reloading them several times to see how well they hold up. I don't want to full-length size them though, so I'll toss them when the collet die is no longer enough.

I'm definitely gonna be watching for these cases at the range. I didn't even have to swage the primer pocket. Also, it was almost certainly fired in a 5.56 chamber; yet it fit my Savage without resizing.

[zxcvbob]

I've found that 99% of the dark gray steel cases (Wolf and Tula, mostly) are boxer primed and reloadable. The lacquer coated ones are berdan garbage. The steel cases are a little harder to clean up the first time (gotta clean the rust out) but then you never have to trim them. I full-length size them and chamfer the case mouths. Don't know how many reloads they are good for before the necks split; probably not many.

I have to fight for every scrap of brass, but nobody but me picks up the steel cases. :)

I wonder how stainless steel tumbling media and a weak phosphoric acid cleaner would work for cleaning and polishing steel cases and getting all the rust out?

[RKJ]

I used to overlook the steel cases lying around but after reading different threads here and the last couple of times at the range finding a couple of hundred .45 that were dry and clean I picked them up. There were a few that had a little surface rust but a little time in the tumbler cleaned it off. I've been thinking of joining the local IPSC league and figured these would be good for that as I hate losing brass.

[EMC45]

Been loading steel case in 9MM and .45 ACP for a few years now. I was told it was impossible and stupid to do it, so I did it. Work just fine. Just picked up some steel cases Easter weekend my brother was shooting. They all load just fine.

[jim147]

I've found that 99% of the dark gray steel cases (Wolf and Tula, mostly) are boxer primed and reloadable. The lacquer coated ones are berdan garbage. The steel cases are a little harder to clean up the first time (gotta clean the rust out) but then you never have to trim them. I full-length size them and chamfer the case mouths. Don't know how many reloads they are good for before the necks split; probably not many.

I have to fight for every scrap of brass, but nobody but me picks up the steel cases. :)

I wonder how stainless steel tumbling media and a weak phosphoric acid cleaner would work for cleaning and polishing steel cases and getting all the rust out?

A diluted muriatic acid from the hardware store with an alkaline rinse might make short work of the rusty cases. I figure the steel cases are cheap that if it doesn't clean up in the tumbler I just toss it.

jim

[flydoc]

You guys ever hear of "evapo-rust" ? It is not an acid, so wont weaken the steel cases. Find it in auto parts stores. Got a gallon of it at O Reilly's for $20 or so and it is nontoxic, has no fumes, wont remove your skin, and is nonflammable.

[DeanWinchester]

If this is an endeavor just to see if it can be done then I understand TOTALLY.

...but if it's not I have to ask; How hard up for cases does a fella gotta be to reuse .223 steel cases? It's not like .223 bras is hard to find or expensive.

[zxcvbob]

Been loading steel case in 9MM and .45 ACP for a few years now. I was told it was impossible and stupid to do it, so I did it. Work just fine. Just picked up some steel cases Easter weekend my brother was shooting. They all load just fine.

:) That's a big part of why I'm doing it with the .223's. And it's another source of reloadable cases if the supply of brass ever dries up.

I picked up a couple of hundred steel cases last week, and I made sure to get some that were rusty and nasty. About 5% were berdan-primed and I threw those out.

I deprimed them and tumbled 'em in a weak solution of some phosphoric acid cleaner that I bought at a farm supply store a while back, using stainless steel tumbling media. I wanted to see if the SS media and phosphoric acid would clean the rust up enough to make them usable. When they came out, I couldn't tell the rusty ones from the clean ones; they all looked good. And oddly enough they all came out a nice dark gray (I think that might be a phosphate thing)

Most people use citric acid with the SS media to clean brass, and citric should work on steel too, I just wanted to try what I had first. I would not use hydrochloric though, mostly because of the chloride rather than the acid.

[John Boy]

Any of the posters shoot Bullseye or rifle target matches with these steel center fire cases? And then compared the groups to rounds loaded with brass cases?

I've shot the Tula 22 LR steel rounds and they don't seal in the rifle chamber tightly. Accuracy doesn't compare to brass case rounds and group sizes drop off after 25yds

[Moonie]

I've just polished up a batch of steel cases to experiment with. I used the SS pins with a bit of phosphoric acid added. They also came out a beautiful grey, all rust removed. Going to try 18gr H4895 with my NOE 60gr which is my standard in normal brass.

[frkelly74]

I too had to try steel cases in my 45 . They work well if they don't rust. I saved 223 cases but they tend to be more prone to rust than the 45 cases so I may send them to the scrapper inside an old stove or something.

[zxcvbob]

It Couldn't Be Done
by Edgar Albert Guest

Somebody said that it couldn’t be done,
But, he with a chuckle replied
That "maybe it couldn’t," but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it.

Somebody scoffed: "Oh, you’ll never do that;
At least no one has done it";
But he took off his coat and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we knew he’d begun it.
With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it.

There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle it in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start to sing as you tackle the thing
That "couldn’t be done," and you’ll do it.

[Tracy]

I had reloaded some of the WWII era steel .45 ACP cases before, but I just tried these as an experiment. Now that I have, maybe I will buy some of the Wolf .223 HP ammo for varmint hunting. It is substantially cheaper than brass-cased stuff, and now that I see that I can reload it, that removes one of my reasons for not buying it.
I'm not worried about the barrel on the Savage because it is 1:9 with a 5.56 chamber (though marked .223) and I want to replace it with a 1:14 .222 barrel. Might as well shoot cheap ammo in this one.

BTW, it is actually easier to reload these Wolf cases than 5.56 military brass because the primers weren't crimped. I have a crimp swager, but non-crimped .223 ammo works better.

[Shiloh]

[QUOTE=zxcvbob;1672919
I wonder how stainless steel tumbling media and a weak phosphoric acid cleaner would work for cleaning and polishing steel cases and getting all the rust out?[/QUOTE]

The phosphoric acid treatment would probably be all that is necessary. I wouldn't leave it very long, and would rinse very well.

I would suppose they would need to be dried very thoroughly or they would re-rust in short order. You live in Minnesota. The humidity would act quickly upon acid etched steel cases unless stored with a deesicant.

Shiloh

[Mud Eagle]

Does the polymer coating come off of the cases when they're stainless-steel wet tumbled? Does anyone have a strategy for preventing rust on the cases after they're tumbled?

[zxcvbob]

@Mud Eagle: Yes it comes off, and within hours they oxidize to a nice shiny dark blue gray (at least when using phosphoric acid; I haven't tried citric or ascorbic.)

Keep them dry? Also the film of lanolin or wax or castor oil leftover from sizing them should help. Wipe them off, but don't degrease them. I have some cases I prepped a month ago in a ziplock bag and they still look like when I put them there.

I do get occasional failures to extract with steel cases, and that's with a clean chamber. I wonder if a small base FL die is in order? Or maybe I need to use them just for lighter loads? (has to do with the yield strength and spring-back of steel vs. brass, which I don't really understand) I'm loading 62 grain bullets for a 16" barrel with 1:9 twist, so I'm loading them hot -- trying to match M855's. Perhaps I need to save the steel cases for when I'm loading 55's and can back off just a little.

[frkelly74]

I wouldn't clean them by any strenuous method. Just a quick wipe maybe with a rag and leave a little case lube in place . the lee lube leaves a kind of waxy finish. Steel unprotected rusts. I would only load up ones to be shot pretty quickly, not for long term storage. It is bangin" ammo.

[JKH]

I have reloaded quite a few hundred Wolf steel .223 cases, both laquered and polymer, the last 100 polymer I loaded were not very accurate but I was using up some old commercial FMJ's with blunt tips (cant remember the brand off hand, got them as part of a larger deal).

I havent loaded any of these cases more than 3 or 4 times, however they dont seem to have degraded noticeably except for some wear to the finish from loading and cycling trough my AR15 ( I did shoot some through my sub 1/2 moa Savage 10PC and got almost 2" groups! In an AR they always give good plinking accuracy except those funky blunts I had).

When I tumble mine I use untreated white rice for 2 hours, wont always make tarnished cases super shiny but does make them completely clean, even removes any rust from steel cases without risking case failure from chemical break down.

My ultimate cheap ammo is Wolf steel cases with Lee Bator boolits, using homemade gas checks and 30+ year old CCI primers I bought 10 years ago at a lawn sale for $5/1000 and a pinch of fast powder, only way I can do it cheaper is to reload spent primers with match heads ;)

Jeff

[Mud Eagle]

Thanks, guys. I just picked up a hundred or so Tula cases at the range yesterday and wanted to ginve it a try, but my only tumbling setup is the stainless pins.

My concern was twofold; if the stainless tumbling took off the polymer coating, how would that impact oxidation/rusting of the cases while they're stored, and how would it impact extraction (since the entire point of the polymer coating is to aid in extraction, of course after corrosion prevention).

I'm using Lee case lube in the sizing process...I wonder if, as @frkelly74 says, I just left the residual lube on there after sizing, it would help both corrosion protection and extraction from an AR. I use an RCBS small base sizing die, so that may help, too.

Thanks for the insight, gents. I'm a somewhat noob reloader and caster, but been reading/lurking CB for some time -- the range of experience here is amazing.

[zxcvbob]

I decap, then tumble them with SS pins and a phosphoric acid based cleaner that I had already. I take them out and rinse them, roll them around on a towel, then put them on a warm hotplate to dry. They end up with a slick polished surface that almost looks blued. Actually it looks more like Parkerized except it's not porous. Then I spray with Dillon case lube and resize them, and put them away in a ziplock bag. That's it. It is less work than processing brass cases.

I almost forgot, when I reload them I'll chamfer the inside of the case mouth slightly with a countersink bit in a cordless drill. Just enough to break the sharp edge if there is one, I don't really want to remove any metal.

[Mud Eagle]

Thanks for the tips...I'm going to try that this weekend just for kicks!

[JKH]

Mud Eagle,

You could leave case lube residue to help squelch corrosin, however, any lubricant left on the cases will prevent them from gripping the chambers walls and siginificantly increasing bolt thrust with a great deal more pressure on the case head, this wont necessarilly cause catastraphic failurr in a modern arm but can accelerate increased bolt lug/locking recess wear which will precipitage increased headspace over time. Older firearms and certain types that the bolts lock at the rear (lever actions, FAL's, Rem 788, MAS 49, British Enfields though not the P14) will flex and spring a LOT upon firing, they are much more prone to headspace issues and blowback type actions should never have lube on cases.

I would do as other members suggest, tumble them and dry them A.S.A.P. (I use a cookie sheet in the oven) and load them right away and seal them in Zip Lok baggies till you shoot them and you should have no problems. Personally I dont use any steel cases that have more than very minor interior surface rust and using tumbling media that leaves the polymer coating intact is best for corrosion protection, some of mine have been loaded close to 2 years and look like they just came out of the Wolf box when new. So you may want to forego the SS pins and buy a bag of white rice and use it alone, it wont harm the coating but will thoroughly clean them, size and deprime after tumbling otherwise rice kernals will get stuck in the flash holes and take much more time to remove, ask me how I know ; )

HtH

Jeff

[Mud Eagle]

Thanks JKH -- I did not think about the cases being "too" slick and increasing bolt lug pressure and wear.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Interesting!!!!!!!!!!

Guess the one question I'd have is what about die life runing steel and much harder cases through them?????????

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Mud Eagle]

Interesting!!!!!!!!!!

Guess the one question I'd have is what about die life runing steel and much harder cases through them?????????

That's the myth -- that the cases are "much harder".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAh_8usXBI

[725]

Damage to dies would be my concern. You guys seem to not have had that happen.

[Mud Eagle]

So you may want to forego the SS pins and buy a bag of white rice and use it alone, it wont harm the coating but will thoroughly clean them

Do you mean white rice in the Thumler instead of the pins? Cool idea, I'm going to try that.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Sorry Mud Eagle, Seldom would it be the case that steel IS NOT harder then brass, so my question stands.

CDOC

[Mud Eagle]

Sorry Mud Eagle, Seldom would it be the case that steel IS NOT harder then brass, so my question stands.

I can't say anything about die life if you do run "much harder" cases through them -- logic says there might be increased wear -- but that doesn't mean that the Russian-made steel cartridges we're talking about here are, by definition, "much harder", and the evidence presented certainly does not support that either.

Since the test I linked performed Rockwell hardness tests on actual Russian steel cases, and directly compared them to harness tests of both nickel-coated brass and straight cartridge brass, then I am struggling to understand why this would not fall into your category of "seldom" as you have made the statement.

If you have direct evidence to the contrary, then I'd be highly interested to see it.

No dog in this fight, but am more prone to form opinions and make decisions based on actual evidence rather than hearsay.

[JKH]

Mud Eagle,

Yes, rice in your vibratory cleaner, you can also use crushed corn cob bedding for hamsters/gerbils that is very cheap at Wal-Mart HOWEVER, the kernals that work into the case are extremely difficult to get out unless .30 cal or larger but it does a good job as well, otherwise stick with the rice.

Crusty,

Steel used for cartridge cases as a matter of necessity are as soft as brass, they are nade in the exact same manner being drawn from blanks/cups and heat treated in the same manner, steel case walls must be able to expand to properly obturate and seal the chamber, actually it is very old technology and well established but using Brass is preferred in that it is more resistant to corrosion in storage than steel in some case but not all, there are still millions of rounds of USGI steel cased .45acp rounds that are like new from WWII as long as the spam cans are intact.

Loading dies are made from hardened tool steel and difficult to impossible to wear out, steel cases are very soft and maleable and will be worn by the dies.

Hth

Jeff

[Mud Eagle]

Just for kicks, ran the ugliest of the Tula range pickups I had through the tumbler with stainless pins, a little detergent, and a little Lemi-shine.

As promised, the polymer coating came off, leaving a nice nickel-like dull shine. Rust all gone, revealing some minor pitting on some of the cases (pretty easy to spot looking like that, and thus easy to cull off into the trash). The necks, which were somewhat sharp when I picked them up, didn't seem to have any significant rough edges or burrs after stainless tumbling. Not sure if I'll hit 'em with the chamfer tool or not.

The only thing that was a little different between the steel cases post-tumbling and comparable brass, the inside of the steel cases weren't as squeaky-clean as the brass usually is. The necks were pretty clean, but q-tip swipes down inside the cases sometimes resulted in what appears the remains of the polymer coatings stuck in there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/a019b32f.jpg

Lubed them with some Lee case lube, and they went through my small base sizing dies easily. Easy wipe down of the case lube, then put them in a Ziploc with a small desiccant pack to sit until I figure out what to do with 'em.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4540ee07.jpg

[EMC45]

Those look great Mud Eagle!

[Echo]

They said that it just couldn't be done, but I (of course) denied it;
I wouldn't admit that it couldn't be done, until I had at least tried it!
I buckled right in, with a trace of a grin, By Golly, I jumped right to it!
I Tackled That Job That Couldn't Be Done - and found I couldn't do it...

Brother Jacky Vernon, IIRC

[Mud Eagle]

Here's some of that stuff that couldn't be done: CCI 400 primers, a load of Varget, and 62 grain FMJs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/504d91c4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/9a510ff4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4c835415.jpg

The results....pretty boring stuff. Normal looking brass with no abnormal gas blowback patterns, no split necks, no case separation. No stuck cases, no problems feeding.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/ffcc360f.jpg

[JKH]

Hey Mud Eagle,

Yowza! Thats the way to to do it man :)

What was accuracy like? Nice to see another AR lover that keeps it simple, no BS **** bolted all over your rifle and good old A2 sights : ) I use a carry handle on my carbine like you but admit to using a Holosite on occasion (good for close up and fast, beyonf 50 yards it cant compete with peep sights).
Anyway, good job with the steel cases and keeping the bling factor down!

Jeff

[zxcvbob]

I loaded some 62 grain FMJ's with Varget tonight in brass cases; Last time I used 25.5 grains and this time it's 26.0 -- probably getting close to max. Then I loaded just a few Hornady 55 grain SP's in steel cases using the same powder charge. Not sure if I'll get to the range tomorrow or not to try them out.

I need to dust off my old Chrony and see if it still works, and clock some Lake City ammo to get some baseline numbers. My gun is a 16" Mini-14, and I'm not sure it will stabilizes 62's with that short barrel unless I load them hot. (it does just fine with NATO ammo)

[Plate plinker]

Any thoughts on work hardening the steel cases versus brass?

[Mud Eagle]

What was accuracy like?

Accuracy was "okay". I didn't shoot it from a rest and it was a pretty windy day, so I don't have any useful data to show as far as that's concerned (like a nice target with a nice grouping!).

I was, however, using bulk Armscor bullets, which I don't read all that many positive reviews of their accuracy. I didn't want to load up (read: "waste"!) my Hornady VMax or the Sierra bullets on this experiment. I was regularly ringing the 8" gong at 100m over the course of the 50 I loaded. Not match grade by any stretch of the imagination, but a successful 'test' in my book.

My real aim was to see if the cases would all load and cycle with Varget in my rifle (I used 24.5 gr and 25.0 gr, and they both worked fine -- the cases were filled nearly up to the bottom of the bullet before seating with 25.0). I was mostly wondering if the bare-steel without the polymer coating would have any issues. I found none, even in multi-shot strings when the rifle was both cold and hot. I'm not exactly a clean freak with my rifle, but it's not overly dirty, either, and I didn't see anything abnormal in the chamber when I was done.

My take-aways from the experiment: it's only slightly more work for case prep, but other than that it's no different than loading and shooting brass. The extra case prep work has to do with me using wet stainless pin tumbling, and thus I have to take more care when the cases come out of tumble to dry them quickly, then store them so they don't rust. I air dried the cases in the three batches of steel I've tumbled so far, and I never saw any rust on the outside, but the insides (where residual water was) took on an extremely light but noticeable rust after only 24 hours. Swabbing a q-tip inside the cases before leaving them to air-dry kept the necks rust free, though.

The other somewhat down side is that I found it a little more challenging to inspect cases for cracks, especially, before tumbling. After tumbling, it was a snap, but before I just could not decipher what was rust, what was dirt, what was powder residue, and what was scraped or cracked polymer coating. So, you have to tumble first, then inspect.

One thing I learned about tumbling steel cases in SS pins: if you tumble them at the same time you have brass in the tumbler, they come out looking gray and dingy and ugly. If you tumble only steel cases in the batch, the cases come out nice and shiny. Like the previous post, the Lemi-shine in the water causes the cases to take on a bit of a gunmetal gray hue a couple hours after coming out of the tumbler. They look almost lightly blued.

I did not have to trim these cases, but I have read reports that people saw noticeable dulling of their trimmer blades after a lot of cases, so that could be an issue. Every single case I have picked up at my particular range (Tula and Wolf) have been less than 1.76 when measured, so I did not trim them at all. That could be another future issue, although I may just end up pitching anything greater than 1.76 since they're "free" anyway".


Anyway, good job with the steel cases and keeping the bling factor down!

Thanks for the comment on the clean rifle. I completely intended it that way, and don't see adding anything significant, although at some point I may go with some kind of optic.

It's funny to go to a range these days, bring a plain-jane AR, and shoot it standing/offhand using just irons on an A2 handle. You definitely get some looks from the other folks! Strange how the hobby has changed with respect to both shooting styles (lots more benchrest guys in my neck(s) of the woods) as well as equipment (optics, optics, optics) -- and I'm under 40 and only been shooting since the late 80s.

I did have a conversation with another shooter who noticed my blue cases and came over to see what kind of reloads I was shooting. It blew his mind that, not only was I shooting Tula, but I was shooting reloaded Tula!

Not sure where I'll go with this from now on. I'm going to shoot this batch at least once more and see what the cases look like. Most of the reports I read about this online spoke of cracks after the 2d or 3rd loading, so I'll be on the lookout for that.

I'll keep picking up discarded Wolf and Tula at the range, knowing that in a pinch I can use it. It's probably most useful in a situation where you can't/don't want to pick up your empties for whatever reason.

[Mud Eagle]

Any thoughts on work hardening the steel cases versus brass?

Do you mean in terms of how the cases work harden and become more brittle than brass in the course of shooting and sizing?

Yes, there definitely is a difference, which I think manifests itself in the limited number of times you can reload.

There are a good number of people on the internet (that I've subsequently read about after seeing this thread) that reload steel in .223 a lot. Some of these guys are getting similar numbers of loads out of their steel cases that they get out of brass before seeing signs of fatigue or failure. Loading and shooting thousands of rounds, so a way larger sample size than the few that I worked yesterday.

Because the cases are free, if I choose to load the cases several times I can afford to be extremely conservative with what I keep and what I toss. I'll probably toss the entire batch once I see one or two split necks develop, and of course I'll ditch anything that even looks suspicious just to be certain.

[JKH]

Hey Mud Eagle,

AR15 owners do seem to run the gammut, I mostly see uber tactical carbines (gotta be an M4 of course so to other my standard CAR seems odd but they dont realize that the M203 barrel cut is the only difference and I dont see many of those on the market!), for the life of me I cant understand why people want to take a light, fast handling weapon and load it with gadgets till it ways 8 or9 lbs, might as well carry a Garand! Personally I prefer 20" rifles and will swap my CAR out for an A1 clone and preferably built on a Vulcan Kevlar lower, last one I built weighed in under 6 lbs empty, that is the epitomy of what the rifle should be, I,m older and trained in boot with a Vietnam era A1 and of the 30+ AR's I have built and owned that configuration will always be my favorite :)

On ar15.com there are a number of members with REAL M16's that regularly reload and shoot steel case ammo in their very expensive machine guns, those boys dump TENS of thousands of rounds a year and are a testimony to dispelling the fasehood of steel cases ruining your firearm and other such nefareous deeds ;)

I still recommend rice in your tumbler as it will clean well but preserve the polymer coating, they look like they did out of the box and when loaded still afford the same corrosion resistance.

[Mud Eagle]

I will definitely try the rice!

[Plate plinker]

Interesting stuff here. It's definitely easier to pitch out free. Junk versus paid for trash. As long as you clean well wear should not be an issue.

[Tracy]

I have reloaded quite a few hundred Wolf steel .223 cases, both laquered and polymer, the last 100 polymer I loaded were not very accurate but I was using up some old commercial FMJ's with blunt tips (cant remember the brand off hand, got them as part of a larger deal).

I havent loaded any of these cases more than 3 or 4 times, however they dont seem to have degraded noticeably except for some wear to the finish from loading and cycling trough my AR15 ( I did shoot some through my sub 1/2 moa Savage 10PC and got almost 2" groups! In an AR they always give good plinking accuracy except those funky blunts I had).

When I tumble mine I use untreated white rice for 2 hours, wont always make tarnished cases super shiny but does make them completely clean, even removes any rust from steel cases without risking case failure from chemical break down.

My ultimate cheap ammo is Wolf steel cases with Lee Bator boolits, using homemade gas checks and 30+ year old CCI primers I bought 10 years ago at a lawn sale for $5/1000 and a pinch of fast powder, only way I can do it cheaper is to reload spent primers with match heads ;)

Jeff

The match head thing works better with Berdan cases. :p