Best primers for ball powders

[Marlin Junky]

Everything I shoot from the bench goes over my chronograph and I have been noticing that WLR primers have been producing smaller ES's than FED210M primers with various ball powders in the 30-30 and .35Rem. Has anyone else noticed this? Has anyone compared WLR to the standard FED210 while using ball powders? Does anyone know if the priming mixture is different in the 210M vs. the standard 210? I just bought a case (5k) of FED210 and kinda wish I had bought a case of WLR. I used to use WLR exclusively because of price but recently found a dealer in the next county that sells 210's at the same price as WLR's so I thought I'd stock up on what I knew was a easier primer to set off (the 210 vs. the WLR).

MJ

[9.3X62AL]

I recall an article in "American Rifleman" from c. 1985, concerning use of ball powders in 308 and 223 target ammunition for service rifle match shooting. I think C.E. Harris was the writer, IIRC. Specifically addressing WW-748, the writer stated that Winchester primers were specifically designed for use with the W-W ball powders. The priming mix was said to contain an aluminum oxide fuel element that was beneficial for ball powder ignition.

[4060MAY]

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

[Marlin Junky]

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

4060,

I don't see much difference in the amount of flame between the 210M and the WLR but the backgrounds are very different in color which could mean the spectrum of light produced is different which could mean the flame temperatures are different. Or maybe just the chemical composition, as Al indicated above, is different which may or may not make all the difference in the world. Beats me. I wish the photographer described his setup (i.e., whether the light was just from the primer flash, etc.) and I also wish he had captured the flash from a standard Fed210.

MJ

[4060MAY]

MJ
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=1602827&highlight=german+salazar
this is the thread about the test.

F210 and F210M Federal primers are the same except the control on the F21M is better, M stands for match, F215 and F215M are Magnum primers.

The part that is interesting to me is I shoot a lot of Black Powder and the people who seem to know, like using pistol primers to ignite Black Powder, claiming better SD and group size.

This has held true in my 38-50Rem, on a No.3 Hepburn. so far in the straight case 40-60 Maynard F215 Federal primers seem to work more consistently in my rifle.
I did start using over primer wads and the groups become rounder much less stringing, I have only tried this in the 38-50, the 40-60 is next.

hope this wasn't too much info. sorry for going off topic. black powder is a different animal from ball powder. just thought the primer test was interesting.

the reason for I found the thread I was hoping someone would try to get in touch with German Salazar and ask the questions.

[Ricochet]

Re blackpowder, I recall reading years ago that many felt flintlocks were inherently more accurate than percussion because of the mild ignition. That theory's apparently been held in benchrest circles, with things like .308 BR cases made with small primer pockets and also benchrest primers of less force than standard. Dunno. And isn't it 44Man who says he always gets better accuracy with standard LP primers with 296 in the .44 Magnum, despite Winchester's recommendation for Magnum primers with this Ball powder?

[Marlin Junky]

M stands for match, F215 and F215M are Magnum primers.


4060,

Did you really think I didn't know that? How dumb do you think I am?

MJ

[robertbank]

You are both wrong "M" stands for more Money for Federal. Marlin Junky don't ask Federal that question. A good number of manufacturers have pretty low opinions of consumers based upon the products they sell.

Has anyone tested rounds over a Chrono to see if there really is a difference in performance?

I know I have shot Magnum primers in regular loads and I couldn't tell the difference but never did run them over a Chrono. Might just do that if the weather ever decides to be hot for a week.

Take Care

Bob

[Ricochet]

With the chrono, I've found certain loads in which switching to magnum primers dropped the average velocity while bumping the ES and group size way up. I thought the velocity drop might have been from the more powerful primer starting the bullet moving up the bore before the powder had a chance to fully ignite.

[beemer]

I was using 760 Win. in a 303 Brit. This powder is on the slow side for the 303 and the load was on the mild side. I tried standard and magnum Winchester primers. The vel. was close to the same but the accuracy improved with the mag. primers. Maybe the mag. primers helped the ignition and made it burn more consistant. Sometimes you don't know why but if it works I'm happy.

I have several different kinds of primers but if I had only WLR it would not be a problem.

beemer

[mike3132]

I thought the velocity drop might have been from the more powerful primer starting the bullet moving up the bore before the powder had a chance to fully ignite.

That is the same thought for blackpowder shooters. The powder charged is pushed up the barrel by hot primers before it can completely ignite. This is seem to be more true with muzzleloaders.

[Ricochet]

The shot start pressure with a muzzleloader would be about the same as the pressure on the ramrod you pushed the ball down the bore with. (There I go using a preposition to end a sentence with, yet again.) Not nearly as much resistance as popping a boolit out of a tight case neck with a crimp and jamming it into rifling.

[4060MAY]

MJ
mea culpa, mea culpa

Re read your original post, which WLR primers are you referring to
the plated ones or the new unplated ones. some say there is a difference in the priming compound, I see there is a color difference. whatever that may mean.

didn't the older WLR have printed on the sleeve, "for Standard and Magnum rifle loads" I have both the white sleeve and the blue sleeve and printed on the sleeve is "Large Rifle for Standard rifle loads"

or was that pistol primers????

[robertbank]

I believe it was for pistol prmers. I have run into both kinds of boxes of Winchester primers up here. I haven't noticed any difference in my pistol loading results and both types of primers work as they should. I read somewhere on the net Winchester was having the primers made by X and now they are buying from Y.

Take Care

Bob

[Marlin Junky]

Perhaps I need to get to the point sooner when I post questions.

The crux is (from my first post):

"Does anyone know if the priming mixture is different in the 210M vs. the standard 210? I just bought a case (5k) of FED210 and kinda wish I had bought a case of WLR."

I just sent Federal a note; however, I've been looking through my chronograph records and I found that FED210's have been consistently producing low ES's in the 30-30 with near capacity loads using RCBS 30-180FN at 195+ grains and H380/380-like ball powders. I think it's a mistake to generalize about ball powders.

MJ

[hivoltfl]

Gosh all this scientific data in this thread, makes me feel kinda Da Huh, I have for years made it a rule of thumb to use a magnum primer with ALL ball powders, I have no complaints.

Rick

[44man]

It depends a lot on the cartridge itself as to what primer is needed. Yes, I get better accuracy in the .44 and .45 Colt with standard primers but the .475 needs the magnum primer or groups go to hell. I also found the 45-70 revolver works better with LP mag primers. I use LP standard primers in my 45-70 BPCR with an over primer wad of newspaper.
This is just another test procedure for every gun, caliber, powder and load and can't be predicted or a pat answer made. Some work better with more heat without pressure and some like pressure and heat, while others like mild ignition. I use a lot of standard primers with ball powders and mag primers with stick powders. There is no way to just say what is best for what you are shooting. It is up to the reloader to try everything to see what works. Thankfully, there is such a wide choice. It would be a dull world if only one primer was made.
Your boolit weight, case tension, crimp, powder choice and hundreds of other little things determine the components.
My stand has always been to try everything, don't go by what is printed as gospel. If you stick to only one thing because the book says so, you are short changing yourself.
I am working with a .45 boolit in my Vaquero that doesn't shoot as good as my others. It looks and weighs the same. I just changed the primer to WLP to see what it does. I am determined to make it shoot good enough for hunting but there is no loss because I have fall back boolits that do shoot good.
Too many say that you MUST use a certain primer! I say NO, test for yourself. If a primer or powder works great in one gun, stay with it. Don't expect the same with another gun or caliber. I will NEVER tell anyone that only one thing works, I only say to please try something else. What have you got to lose?

[3sixbits]

Perhaps I need to get to the point sooner when I post questions.

The crux is (from my first post):

"Does anyone know if the priming mixture is different in the 210M vs. the standard 210? I just bought a case (5k) of FED210 and kinda wish I had bought a case of WLR."

I just sent Federal a note; however, I've been looking through my chronograph records and I found that FED210's have been consistently producing low ES's in the 30-30 with near capacity loads using RCBS 30-180FN at 195+ grains and H380/380-like ball powders. I think it's a mistake to generalize about ball powders.

MJ

Things change over time! When I was doing a lot of bench rest shooting I called FEDERAL and asked them what made the match primer any different from the standard primer and was told how they select for match grade primers. By random selection testing the batch that has the least difference in breaunce (most uniform) is selected as match primers. I don't know if this is still the case today. You might want to give FEDERAL a call and ask them how they select today?

[Marlin Junky]

Here's the rule I've come up with so far:

Some ball powders under certain conditions (like H380 in the 30-30 with heavier than normal boolits) work well with Federal primers and others work better with Winchester primers. How's that for insight? ;)