Best Old Military Rifles

[ksriverrat]

With Durability, easy to reload in a readily available caliber & decent accuracy
being the criteria. What are the best buys in older military rifles?

Are there many Mauser's still out in any configuration fitting this?

I am not schooled at all on old military style rifles. Any help would be appreciated. I am going to start hitting the local gun shows.

[skeet1]

In my opinion any of the Mauser 98's are good and the most common are 8X57MM. Currently the most affordable of these I think is the Yugo 24/47 for around $200.00. These rifles are strong, vent gas well in case of a cartridge failure and brass/ bullets are easy to come by.

If you are talking about cost and all around ruggedness the Mosin Nagant would be the best as these can be had for around $100.00 The only problem with these is the current availability of 7.62X54R reloadable brass. Brass is avalible off and on through Graffs or you could by Privi Partisan loaded ammo for the brass. I have two Mosin's and for the money they are one of the best buys to come along in years.

Ken

[ShooterAZ]

My vote goes to the 1903 Springfield in 30-06. A bit more spendy than the Mausers or Mosin Nagant, but I have had fantastic results with them. A classic arm it is. I like Mosins, but they are all over the map when it comes to bore size...from .308 to .314 or larger. If you only had one it's not an issue...but having to size for each one you own is a pita.

[Multigunner]

Well I have only reloaded for one Mauser, only owned two over the years.
The one I did reload for was a Persian Mauser Carbine, in mint condition.
Standard 7.92 loads were like the crack of doom so I tried my hand at recommended reduced loads of IMR 4198 and IMR4227.

I never had any real problems with these, but thought I might have at the time.
Though I neck sized only the cases shortened with each firing and reloading. The primers protuded on cases reloaded several times.
Later when making extra light round ball loads and wax bullet loads for the .38 Special I found that primer pressure alone can push the case deeper into the chamber and hold it long enough that the case wall holds tight to the chamber wall. With pressures too low to stretch the case or push it free of its grip on the chamber wall the primer remains protuding from its pocket.
They get around this in .38 wax bullet loads by enlargering the flashole so theres less primer gas trapped in the pocket, otherwise protruding primers can lock up the cylinder.
You can't safely enlarge primer pockets of higher pressure rifle cartridges in the same way.

So best case life for centerfire rimless cases seems to be with a medium pressure load rather than a low pressure load.

Rimmed cases like the .303 should handle low pressure loads much better, but are seldom accurate with low pressure loads with J word bullets. The .303 also as a rep for badly stretched cases if headspace is long. Theres tricks to get around this but it depends on how much work you want to put into reloading.

The 8mm cartridge lends itself well to reloading, and there are plenty still to be found.
As always condition of the individual rifle determines just how well suited it is to reloading.

Only handloading I've done for the Mosin Nagant was making soft point loads using salvaged primed milspec steel cases.
The rifles are definitely among the strongest.

[koehlerrk]

Swiss K31. Grafs has brass, uses standard 308 bullets, and they were extremely well built, and they shoot so well it's hard to believe they were military rifles.

[zomby woof]

1903 Springfield
Swedish Mauser
M1 Garand
K31 Swiss
M1 Carbine

[Lead Fred]

M1 Garand tops the pile
Mosin Nagant

Sold the rest off

[jhrosier]

The Model 39 Finn Mosin is a good place to start.
The prices are still within reach and the Finn will shoot right along with an 03 Springfield.
Of course, you still can't go wrong investing in an 03 or 03A3 Springfield either.

Jack

[emrah]

My Yugo 24/47 is fantastic. With 170 gr. Hornady RN J-bullets over 48.0 of RL-15 I can hit a hand-sized group at 160 yards open sights. I'm ok with that. Don't have a cast boolit for it yet. I love my Mauser.

My Mosin M44 can barely hit the broadside of a barn at 50 yards. In fact, it's easier and less frustrating to let the rifle sit there and wait for the barn to come to it...

My Mosin 91/30 will shoot as well and usually better than the Mauser, again with J-bullets.

Emrah

[Bullet Caster]

Ya just can't no better than an M1 Garand. Easy to load, shoots cast well and is fairly accurate. Enough for my needs anyway. The .30-06 cartridge had been around for a long time and is truly a general purpose one. You can load 125 grain up to and including 220 grain boolits or bullets whichever your choose. I love my M1. Have wanted one all my life ever since taking one apart and putting it back together in Military school in the 9th grade (Georgia Military Academy) during the military training classes given there. That's where I learned to "pass and review". Sorry, I got off on a tangent. BC

[ksriverrat]

Bullet Caster, not a tangent at all. This is the stuff I am wanting to hear!!

Man, some great answers. With some strong feelings behind them. Great stuff!

My quick look into this had the K31 leading on my most desirable list. With its affordable price, straight pull bolt & accuracy that every one who has one seems to speak of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2M1hC4c0tc&feature=relmfu

A really cool rifle! There is a slight problem with the price of brass. A little over $50.00 for a 100 rounds. On second thought that isn't terrible bad.

Next question, how hard is the Garand on brass?

[ksriverrat]

The only problem with these is the current availability of 7.62X54R reloadable brass. Ken

Can it be formed from another caliber?

[405]

Well, 30-06 is about as basic as it gets. The Garand is harder on brass than any of the bolt repeaters. I dearly love the 03 and 03A3s. For all around, shoot any type bullet well (Jbullet or cast) and at any reasonable pressure level from low to standard 06- I lean toward the 03A3 with a GOOD (more than 2 groove, and I know I'll catch heck for that- IMO and just my experience) barrel. Excellent adjustable peep sights as standard on the 03A3s are a great help also. Good 03s and 03A3s are more expensive than most of the other cast of characters within the mil surp ranks but are probably a better investment as would be the Garand. But the Garand does take a little more care in loading and paying attention.

[Mark Daiute]

go for a cut-down Krag accurate and plenty of knock-down power, lots of them out there and they don't cost all that much

then if you have the money the 03 Springfield can't be beat.

[Kraschenbirn]

My modest collection has a little of everything...Mauser(s), Garand, Krag, Mosin, '03A3, Enfield, etc...but to meet your criteria, my first choice might be a good ol' Enfield; either a #1Mk3 or a #4Mk1. The .303 Brit is a great CB cartridge, easy to reload with brass and moulds readily available. And, accuracy-wise, out to 200M, my Longbranch #4MK1 will hold its own with almost any of my milsurps...the main exception(s) being my Schmidt-Rubins, both of which are capable of producing almost uncanny groups if I do my part.

Bill

[Tracy]

Can it be formed from another caliber?

No. That's what I like about the 8mm Mauser: I can form cases from .30/06, .270 Winchester, etc.

[JeffinNZ]

Carcano.

What? Well someone had to say it.

[NickSS]

I have owned or own every mauser rifle made for any military organization and they are all good rifles if they have good bores. Reloading for any of them is about the same and most of the cartridge cases can be made from 30-06 brass. The one exception is the few rimmed cartridges and the 6.5X55 cartridge for the Swedish mausers. Any US army rifle is a good choice for reloading and brass availability and generally they are quite accurate if the bore is good. The British Enfield's are among my favorites but can be a problem with bullet diameters as the bores vary in size a good deal. Once you find a good bullet diameter they work like champs but are not the most accurate of rifles. If you want really accurate shooting rifles your best bet is either a Finish Nagant or a Schmidt Ruben K31. You will have the best chance of getting a real shooter with one of them. Only slightly behind them as for accuracy is the 1903 Springfields and Swedish Mausers.

[willy3]

My favorite rifle to shoot is still the 1943 Johnson Automatic Rifle... Sweet.. But boy do I regret selling my Persian Mauser Carbine!!

[Fishman]

Buy the one that speaks to you, as long as it has a decent bore. All of them are neat

[Ben]

I'd have to say 1903 Springfield, followed by a 98' Mauser in 8 X 57 mm

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=149699

[Bret4207]

This hasn't been mentioned- if you want an off the shelf hunting rifle, the Steyr 95 wins the contest. Light, powerful, a safety built for a hunter and adequate sights. Not too many looking for that anymore though.

For sheer pleasure of use I like the 91 Mauser. For accuracy the Swiss K-31 and 03 Springfield. For all around best of show- The Swede 96, M38.

[KCSO]

Good grief no Enfield fans! Fastest shooting quickest reloading and still relativly cheap on the market. I love Krags but they are way to spendy now, same with 03's and Garands. The most accurate out of the box are the K31's but they have about dried up and the price is right up there. Mausers are variable in price and there is a lot of cheap ammo yet. Mostly it depends on what strikes your fancy.

[Multigunner]

Good grief no Enfield fans! Fastest shooting quickest reloading and still relativly cheap on the market. I love Krags but they are way to spendy now, same with 03's and Garands. The most accurate out of the box are the K31's but they have about dried up and the price is right up there. Mausers are variable in price and there is a lot of cheap ammo yet. Mostly it depends on what strikes your fancy.

The Lee Enfields are fine rifles, but as NickSS and I already mentioned many of these rifles require extra work in reloading.
I tightened my No.4 up till it doesn't stretch cases and have had excellent results in handloading for it.
Handloading for the run of the mill Lee Enfield usually requires some specialized preparation in fire forming cases, such as the O-ring method so often mentioned on this forum.

A long in the tooth mauser can be even more difficult when it comes to fire forming,(first necking up, forming a false shoulder, then neck sizing) but those with excessive headspace wouldn't be considered as desirable anyway.

[wiljen]

1917 Enfield. Decent sights, accurate, and strong enough to make a mauser look dainty.

[catmandu]

I have to agree with wilgen.
M1917 Enfield - one tough old girl.

M1 Garand a close second. (its tougher on brass):-P

Paul in WNY

[gnoahhh]

1903 Springfield
U.S.Krag-Jörgensen
MI Garand
98 Mauser
K-31
1917 Enfield

My preferences, in about that order. Remember, the selection of .30 molds is better than any other caliber. The rest are ok. I've a soft spot for nice No.1 MkIII*'s, and some of the Mannlichers are pretty interesting. I just could never warm up to any of the stuff intended for peasant armies- accurate as some of them may be. Just because they're cheap isn't a big draw- I would rather spend that $100 on supplies to keep the good ones shooting than to simply add another gun to the collection. Just my opinion, worth the usual bucket of warm spit!

[Ola]

My Mosin M44 can barely hit the broadside of a barn at 50 yards. In fact, it's easier and less frustrating to let the rifle sit there and wait for the barn to come to it...

Do you have the one with fixed bayonet? Because the M44 was designed to be shot WITH the bayonet pointing forward and the position of the bayonet has a significant effect on the accuracy. It is not very accurate anyhow, but this is something that should be recognized with M44.

[Ola]

How about Arisaka? Here they used to be be popular (probably because the good availability). Shooters have been re-chambered them in all kinds of calibers. Even .300 WSM.

[emrah]

Ola,

Yes, I've tried it with bayonet extended. The bayonet changes point of impact, but not accuracy (grouping). Still working on trying to find the perfect sized boolit.

Emrah

[MtGun44]

Several good points made, Bret's list is pretty good.

'03 or '03A3 Springfield
Finn M39
Swiss K31
Swede M94 in 6.5 Swede
Chilean M95 in 7x57

are all very accurate rifles, listed in approximate order of accuracy that I have
seen personally.

I have fiddled a bit with 8x57 and know others have had great results but the
recoil and IME inaccuracy with at least 4 different rifles has soured me on the
cartridge. I have not given up totally, and have a couple of new examples that are
yet to be fully cleaned and tested, but at this point NOT a fan of 8x57, but huge
fan of 7x57.

[Mark Daiute]

Cut down trapdoor. Plenty of brass out there and even modest loads will take out anyhting in north America!

[greenwart]

My vote is the m96 swede with the K31 coming in second. Both are ideal cartridges though I prefer the 6.5x55 due to less recoil and if you want to mount a scope they are a bit easier than the K31. I own 2 in original military configuration and 2 sporterized Swedes. I also have two K31's in original configs. I also own a VZ23 which was refurbished by the Soviets. The action is quite nice but the barrel is marginal at best it has a huge throat and the grooves are way over sized and quite a bit of pitting probably due to corrosive ammunition. The 8mm has a significant recoil and beats me up to shoot it. If possible inspect the bore and condition before buying or buy from a dealer that has a great reputation.

Bob

[garandsrus]

The Swiss 1911 rifle is very cool also and not too common. There were only 133,000 made. It is an earlier model than the K-31 and is the longest rifle I own at 51.5". The K-31 is 43.6". Here's a comparison of the Swiss rifles: http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/detail/

John

[wallenba]

'03 Springfied =easy to load for but pricey
91/30 = cheap, brass can get hard to get and bores vary.
Mauser= pricey, but easy to reload for.
K31= priced right, almost all have decent bores. Brass is very difficult to get sometimes, but 284 Winchester brass is easily formed to 7.5x55 Swiss.

K31...if you can find one.

[leadshooter5]

My favorite is my 1949-produced No.4 Enfield. I replaced the rear sight with a windage and aperture adjustable Parker-Hale, and it loves lead boolits. I did have a No.5 jungle carbine though, with a grossly oversize chamber that really stretched the brass. May want to avoid, or carefully check out, the wartime produced guns.

[ksriverrat]

For right now I'm really liking the Springfield 03 & the Swiss K31.

The 03 because, it's well made, very usable for anything I would use a 30-06 for.

K31 because the ones I looked over yesterday were extremely well made, may be the most accurate rifle across it's production of any of the milsurp rifles. Thats what I am finding any way. Also it's straight pull bolt & how it works I find very intriguing.
Ammo or brass for it is not the hemroid I was making it out to be.

Of course I will be wanting a Mauser or 5........perpetual isnt it:veryconfu

[218bee]

1917 Enfield gets my vote.....and most any 6.5 Swede

[excess650]

For a shooter I prefer the K31 due to their excellent trigger, normally excellent barrels, 30cal 1-10.65" twist, capacity identical to 30-06, etc. Its safety mechanism is odd but it does have detachable magazines.

I had a Swede Type 38 but just didn't love the 6.5x55 cartridge. I have a cut down Turk K Kale and it may end up with a 308 barrel on it.

Truthfully, I've encountered used, older Remington 700 ADLs in 30-06 for low enough price to forget about milsurps. They already are D&T for scope, low bolt handle, adjustable triggers, good barrels...

[Who's this Guy ?]

Mosin-Nagant 7.62x54
Mauser 8mm Yugo/Russian capture 98K

Probably as other said would be on the cheap.
How far and what do you want to shoot, targets or to hunt etc.?

One gun not mentioned is the good ole' M-1 Carbine. It's a semi, plus they are still being made new, The ammo new is sold by the 50rnds and not the 20. You can reload for it pretty easy if you want to.

Plus if you go to the range, these young tactical crowd kids won't look at you funny because your using an old turn bolt:-) LOL.....

[bob208]

the first milsurplus rifle i use cast in wast a 91 argentine mauser. formed the brass out of .30-06. used a 200 gr bullet with gas check. sized to .312.

[ksriverrat]

Truthfully, I've encountered used, older Remington 700 ADLs in 30-06 for low enough price to forget about milsurps. They already are D&T for scope, low bolt handle, adjustable triggers, good barrels...

RIGHT!
Thats why this topic is by no means meant to help me find my favorite rifle or the rifle I will carry with me most of the time.

Good shooters from yesteryear are desirable to me. If they shoot well & are still capable of taking some abuse from use all the better.

[ksriverrat]

Mosin-Nagant 7.62x54
One gun not mentioned is the good ole' M-1 Carbine. It's a semi, plus they are still being made new,

Wish I had one. They do get overlooked. With newer projectiles the 30 carbine really becomes a gun & cartridge with some legit merit.
They seem to fire well even when not cleaned regular.
I believe that caliber is also legal for deer in some states.

[Multigunner]

Back to the Lee Enfields for a moment.
While most have over large bores, and even the minimum acceptance specs for these bores with major diameter of .313 is .002 over the common bullet diameter of .311, I did luck out in finding an SMLE with excellent bore that slugged at .311. I haven't fired this rifle with handloads enough to know the limits of its accuracy, but results with milsurp, commercial sporting, and reloads using .312 J-word bullets I'd worked up for my No.4 have shown very promising results.
Cases show no excessive stretching or swelling , and headspace appears to be very good as best I can judge using shims.
The cartridge itself is one of those considered inherently accurate, the case capacity, shoulder geometry, and bullet weight range are well balanced.

This is seldom the case with hard used milsurp Enfields, but the rifles FTR'ed shortly before being put in storage and later sold off may well have bores and chambers well suited to reloading without special tricks like the O-ring.
The headspace when the rifle left the factory would have been well within SAAMI commercial specs for the .303. Its only after hard use that headspace increased to any extent, unfortunately most were hard used and often with unsuitable and even defective ammunition in the many brushfire wars and genocidal campaigns of the third world pestholes that ended up with mountains of WW1 and WW2 surplus British rifles. Poor cleaning or no cleaning at all also accounted for many Enfield bores being in terrible condition.

[Char-Gar]

USGI rifles in 30-06 caliber, 1903, 1903A3, 1917 and Garand. Get any and all of them and pay what you must to acquire them, and never look back. They will never be cheaper or more available than they are today.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have and shoot 3 of these old war horses.

A SMLE No4 Mk ? Longbranch .303 Brit that has a sporterized stock. So far the accuracy is horrible and it flings rounds sideways even at 25 yds. I recently got a 316299 mold and I have yet to assemble rounds for an accuracy test. Nice rifle but the verdict is not in yet.

I had a Mauser 98/22 with Turk markings on the sights. It was an excellent CB rifle but too ugly and ungainley for me. I rebarrelled it 6.5 x 55 Sweede and with a new stock it is a barnburner with groups of 1/4" at 100 yds with J word boolits. With a charge of Unique powder and a CB it groups all day at less than an inch at 100 yds and recoils like a .223.

Then I got a commercial model Mauser in 8 x 57. It has a tight chamber and I am still trying to find the answers for this rifle. It has promise. Again the verdict is not in.

My beloved Garand was made by the Springfield people and it loves CB's. Stoked with Accurate 2700 and a 311284 GC boolit it regularly gives me great joy and a is accurate out to over 300 yds on steel targets. Low recoil and muzzle blast and the empties stack up in front of the gun. FPS of about 1850 and this gun hardly gets warm until the 3rd clip of 8 rounds. A true joy to shoot and always attracts attention at the firing line.

[Multigunner]

One thing about older rifles and cast boolits is that iff finely pitted the full length of the bore theres an unusual effect first noticed in the 1840's when it was found that a "seasoned" bore usually out shot a brand new highly finished bore.
Tests run in the early 1900's bore out results of those earlier tests. The explanation given was that at lead bullet velocities bullet lubricants got into the pits and under the pressure of the bullet's passage the trapped lubes acted like microscopic ball bearings.
The same basic effect is why a crosshatched honining of an engine cylinder holds lubrication and forms a microscopic barrier between the piston ring and cylinder walls that also seals in gases of combustion. Once the honing has been worn to a bright gases of combustion blow by the rings and friction increases till the engine has to be given a ring job or rebuild.

So if one finds that the bore of a milsurp has fine rust or shallow pitting the rifle may yet display great accuracy with a properly taylored cast boolit load.

I've seen adverts for some specialized target barrels that have a finish to the grooves meant to reproduce that same effect at J-word high velocities, while also reducing bullet friction without allowing blowby.

[garym1a2]

A good M39, its accuracy is tops. Surplus ammo is dirt cheap. Kinda hard to find brass though.

[35 Whelen]

I have 1903A3's and K-31's. I LOVE them both, and they're both very accurate, but I have to go with the K-31. Probably slightly more accurate, superb workmanship, immaculate, tight barrels, WAY faster to operate and infallible easy to use strippers.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, I submit the following dissertation:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/June09match.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/53K31Group1.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/53K31withGP-11.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/AA5744150grHorn.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/43K-31Groups2-1.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/39K-31Groups.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/CSK31-Hornady.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/DSC_0005.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/600ydgongtest-labeled.jpg

All targets were fired at 100 yds., some off the bench, some at High Power matches. The last target was fired at 600 yds.

I recently built and erected a steel version of the standard SR target and set it up at 200 yds. here at the house. Lyman 311672 bullet 14.0 grs. AA#7 is a beautifully accurate load and is a ball to use on the 200 yd. target. The bullets simply land wherever the sights were when the rifle went off!

35W

[HighHook]

The first one you see at a fair price just buy it. You will want more...

Once bitten by the bug on old Military rifles all the new black guns start to look funny.
:guntootsmiley:

[rhbrink]

The first one you see at a fair price just buy it. You will want more...

Once bitten by the bug on old Military rifles all the new black guns start to look funny.
:guntootsmiley:

Yep just get one with a good bore and go have fun!:smile:

[happyret65]

The one that shoots most loads accurately in a small group and doesn't hair lip your bank account.

[340six]

M1 Garand tops the pile
Mosin Nagant

Sold the rest off
I put them first as well some can be had with new birch stocks at CMP for 600 that are like new and the service grade HRA's are sweet right now there as well
http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee87/fast340six/Garand/?albumview=slideshow

[Adelphos]

Was scanning the forums and registered just for this thread.

I have a 1941 98k Mauser which shoots 2moa at 100 yds with cast 180g lee gas checked mold with 19grs 2400. Although original barrel was so bad i had to have it replaced.

Bought a M1 Garand from the Cmp north store service grade Springfield 1954 barrel. Shoots amazingly well and even better once I put a long eye relief scope on it as well as a adjustable gas plug to make it a straight pull rifle. (easy to find brass);) Now im shooting 5/8th inch groups at 100yds. Also using 165gr lee gc mold 19gr 2400. Buy them while you can they are really fun to shoot.

[1Shirt]

6.5x55 Swed mauser
1917 Enfield 06
7.5x55 Swiss
7.62x54R MN Carbine
In that order! All fun, all shooters!
1Shirt!

[Coffeecup]

Much as I enjoy my Mausers, in issue configuration I tend to shoot an 03A3 much better, followed by the 1917/1914 Enfields. It all comes down to sights for me; I think that in general the Mausers/Springfields/1914 and 1917 Enfields are all roughly equal in mechanical accuracy.

[bruce drake]

1914 Enfield (303 Brit)
No 4 Mk1 Enfield (303 Brit)
Straight bolt 98 Mausers (8mm)
bent bolt 98 Mausers (mostly 8mm though I do have one in 30-06)
T38/T99 Arisakas (6.5mm/7.7mm)
M1 Garand (30-06)
M44 (7.62x54R)

Overall I prefer 303 Brit cases and the Enfield's sights and cock on closing operation. It was also the first caliber I ever reloaded for so it's always been in my heart.

I'm a lefty so I have to shift gears a bit different than right handed bolt shooters and Mauser's with straight bolt handles "shift" faster and smoother for me.

I love my Arisakas simply for the "coolness" factor of shooting them while my "shifter" prefers their straight bolt handles as well.

The Garand is my baby as well but I prefer bolts.

THe M44 is a nice carbine for brush work because I prefer to shoot my reloads over milsurp blasting ammo anyways.

And I'm sure people have noticed my fondness for .31 caliber bullets as well. I need to find a Mauser in 7.65x53 sometime in the future as well to complete the collection.

And the K31 Swiss may be on the list soon as well, based off our fellow caster's recommendations as well.

Bruce

[Bob S]

And the K31 Swiss may be on the list soon as well, based off our fellow caster's recommendations as well.

Bruce

And you can turn it into a lefty in about 20 seconds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31righty.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31lefty.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Burgin.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[bruce drake]

Bob,

That bolt handle cost as much as the K31? I don't read German so it might take longer than 30 seconds to replace :)

Bruce

[Bob S]

Bruce,

When I bought my Burgin (about 8 years ago), it was about $200, so it was actually more than the carbine at the time. But if you have to shoot left handed, it's well-worth it. (I'm not leftie, but I was having problems with my right eye, so I shot leftie for about a year.)

The outfit in Montana, Swiss Products LLC, made a version of this about a year or two ago; also about$200 IIRC. I beleive they sold out in a week. I think they are going to make a second run sometime in the not-too-distant future.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[badbob454]

m14 ..................................... accuracy. lots of ammo,brass available fast rate of fire
m1garand................................. same ''
model 1903 ..................................same '' but bolt action slower fire rate
Russian sks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,accuracy ease of reloading lots of surplus/reliable under extreme conditions
model 1917 yugo 24/47, as good as the 1903 but heavier to carry but can reform 06 ammo in my 8mm

m44/russia accurate ,ammo harder to find ,
ar/blackrifle in 223 lightweight rifle, ammo lightweight , not as powerfull as the 30cal's but a fast rate of fire . ammo readily available brass easy to find
my favorite is the m14 , i cannot afford one . so i love my sks russian

IF i had only 1 gun, it would be an sks i can shoot it as accurately, as with a nice bolt gun with open sights

[gifford]

I've had a bunch of the old Milsurp rifles, commencing in the 60's with the ten dollar Enfields. The only one I have now is my swiss 96/11. Simply a fine milsurp rifle and very accurate. Got plenty of G-11 ammo and some new Hornady.

I would like to pick up a nice older SKS but something always seems to intervene.

[gew98]

For right now I'm really liking the Springfield 03 & the Swiss K31.

The 03 because, it's well made, very usable for anything I would use a 30-06 for.

K31 because the ones I looked over yesterday were extremely well made, may be the most accurate rifle across it's production of any of the milsurp rifles. Thats what I am finding any way. Also it's straight pull bolt & how it works I find very intriguing.
Ammo or brass for it is not the hemroid I was making it out to be.

Of course I will be wanting a Mauser or 5........perpetual isnt it:veryconfu

Just stay away from a class C steel 03 receiver , make sure the stock is not cracked at the wrist , handguard no cracked , rear sight not worn loose , and above all check the firing pin tip... you really don't want a peirced primer on an 03 - they don't handle them to well , don't ask me how I know.
The main flaw I found with 03A3's is the thin delcate front sight blade and the ability to have the rear sight knocked off the rifle by sheer accident.. not endearing features to me.
The Model 1917 is a great choice , but I found over the years the Patt14 still outshoots it's 30 cal offspring handily.
Can't say a thing about straight pullers... between the Ross and the 88/90 & 95 steyr's they impressed me very little. I like rugged accurate rifles..not range queens with a delicate nature.
Surplus south american mausers in 7,65 caliber are hard to beat for the money and accuracy , and you can crank out brass from 30-06 , 270 , 25-06. And in a pinch 308 cal bullets do work well in them.
The 7,92 mausers out there can vary in accuracy wildly...usually due to stocking problems. Generally the sights are great and rugged for 'combat' but not for target shooting , but hey they were not made for the range queen work.
The No4's have good sights and ergonomics , the No1 MkIII's have great ergonomics and fair sights.... but as with any military rifle that likely has been reworked more than once in service you may find stocking issues the bane to accuracy unless addressed properly. All in all it's a pretty rare event when I have come across an Enfield that cannot shoot well. Only problem I ever encountered with an enfield was using surplus chicom 303 - brass was brittle and longitudal splits not uncommon , which never hurt the rifle other than fouling the bore with lousy bullet jacket alloy and of course the disconcerting puff of smoke in the face with the split brass.
I loved shooting 30/40 krags... but even sporters cost an arm and a leg these days. Have had alot of fun and great results with those Mosin rifles excepting M38 & 44 carbines. For their cost the Mosins are still a bargain... you just have to check action screw tension often when using surplus or full loads.

[MtGun44]

"If I had only one gun it would be an SKS"

Wow.

Bill

[bruce drake]

Hey, if that is what he can afford to shoot, than let him be happy with what he has.

But then again, I sold my SKS shortly after I rebarrelled a bolt action Mauser to 7.62x39. Now I have a short handy carbine with an effective light-recoiling 30-30 class cartridge that is a lot more accurate than my old SKS.

I'm more concerned about his statement that he can reform 30-06 cases into 7.62x54R for a M44...

Bruce

[405]

For right now I'm really liking the Springfield 03 & the Swiss K31.

The 03 because, it's well made, very usable for anything I would use a 30-06 for.

K31 because the ones I looked over yesterday were extremely well made, may be the most accurate rifle across it's production of any of the milsurp rifles. Thats what I am finding any way. Also it's straight pull bolt & how it works I find very intriguing.
Ammo or brass for it is not the hemroid I was making it out to be.

Of course I will be wanting a Mauser or 5........perpetual isnt it:veryconfu

Just curious. Is this from first hand experience or from seller or internet forum chat?- "may be the most accurate rifle across it's production of any of the milsurp rifles. Thats what I am finding any way." While the K31 is well made and many shoot very well, I'll guarantee not every milsurp, no matter the type, you run into will be the proverbial "tack driver".

[Ed in North Texas]

I might have missed one or two replies, but it seems there is one which has not been mentioned.

The best milsurp rifle (or handgun) is the one you have - until you desperately need the next one, and the one after that, and then......

:smile:

Ed

[gew98]

I might have missed one or two replies, but it seems there is one which has not been mentioned.

The best milsurp rifle (or handgun) is the one you have - until you desperately need the next one, and the one after that, and then......

:smile:

Ed

Now dang it Ed... you let the cat out of the bag !...

[kenyerian]

Several have came and gone here over the years and my family has enjoyed all of them. The sks is a fun gun that is cheap to shoot. Some of the Mosin Nagants have been decent shooters but my favorite is the Garand.

[MtGun44]

Yeah, Bruce, I missed that one. I suppose it may extract, but I would have never
thought of trying a rimless case to form a rimmed case. Shows how limited my
imagination is. Of course, the base diameter of an '06 is about .473 and the
base diameter of a 7.62x54R is .487. . . . . . . I expect that it will expand out
if you use enough powder. :shock:

Bill

[Multigunner]

Yeah, Bruce, I missed that one. I suppose it may extract, but I would have never
thought of trying a rimless case to form a rimmed case. Shows how limited my
imagination is. Of course, the base diameter of an '06 is about .473 and the
base diameter of a 7.62x54R is .487. . . . . . . I expect that it will expand out
if you use enough powder. :shock:

Bill
I have heard of Mosin Nagants having been rechambered to take the 8mm Mauser without the barrel being set back, and the bore remaining its original size, and these were said to have been fired with no reported problems.
But no reported problems doesn't mean much if the shooter is no longer in any shape to report what happened.
I suppose thats within the realm of possibility if they used the old 8mmJ cartridge with .318 bullet and the rifles had maximum dia bores of .316 that I hear were not uncommon.

I don't remember where this was done, it was during WW1 IIRC.

Even if the original chamber was tight as a hatband there would be .005 clearance all around, and since even a tight chamber usually has .002 clearance best you could expect would be .007 clearance even if the cartridge sat dead center in the chamber.
Some milspec cases may handle that kind of slack, but I wouldn't risk it.

Centering the case by wrapping the base with layers of cigarette paper might help, but thats still an awful lot of faith to put in a cartridge case.

[gew98]

The only Mosin rifles I have ever had that were 8mm conversions were the Polish 91/98/25 and one M91 that was rechambered and bored out for 8x50 steyr.
Neither one had the original .310-ish bores and both had had the barrel set back and recut , the polish rifles very noticeably so. But the polish conversions of carbine length with a german type bayonet lug and front band were very accurate and trouble free. The 8x50 steyr 91 was a fair shooter but all I had at the time was a tin of round nosed 1920's dated 8x50 and ignition was spotty on that old surplus with noted low power 'bangs'.
Every Bannerman 30-06 converted Mosin I have handled I WOULD NOT EVER shoot.
The germans were big on converting rifles they captured to their 7,92 round if the rifles warranted such work. They rebored/rechambered a number of belgian 89 rifles and carbines and reissued them as the base 7,65 cartrisge used by the belgian rifles made conversion cheap. The russian 91's required a new or heavily modified bolt head/extractor , along with barrel work and as such the germans did not pursue reworking them to their service caliber.
The austrians captured gobs of 91's and did some conversions to their service caliber , but not terribly many as they had a fair amount of captured 7,62 on hand as well the germans manufactured 7,62 cartridges for the Mosin's they reissued after capture.

[Bob S]

Bob,

That bolt handle cost as much as the K31?
Bruce


http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/8293/The-LHO-s-Are-Being-Released-Please-read-before-emailing

$198.25 and he says he has 12 left. The alternative is 335 SF ... not sure what the exchange rate is these days ... for the Burgin.

Buy the LHO first, then get the rifle. :wink:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[rjathon]

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/8293/The-LHO-s-Are-Being-Released-Please-read-before-emailing

$198.25 and he says he has 12 left. The alternative is 335 SF ... not sure what the exchange rate is these days ... for the Burgin.

Buy the LHO first, then get the rifle. :wink:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

What is an LHO?

[JeffinNZ]

Let's be honest. Any milsurp is good because for the most part they are dirt cheap for what you get and all lend themselves to cast boolit shooting. Cheap to buy, cheap to feed and built like a brick outhouse. It's a beautiful thing.

Why has no one seconded my Carcano post? Guess I just know a good thing when I see it....... ;-)

[Beekeeper]

I'll second it Jeff,
My 7.35 is one of the only milsurps I have not had trouble with using cast boolits.


beekeeper

[waksupi]

I really think the 8X57 is one of the best of the cast boolit chamberings. Generally accurate, good bore size, what's not to like? I guess I would have to say it may be a bit over bore, as many chamberings are for our purposes, but it is a good bang for the buck.

[Beekeeper]

For me!
I am a Mauser nut so any old Mauser works for me.
My favorite are the 2, 71/84 Mausers I have that I built from barreled actions before parts became unobtainium .You can shoot black or smokeless out of the so they are the best of both worlds.Paper patch or grease groove it doesn't care
Just wish they shot a smaller slug, doesn't take long to ruin your lead supply.

Got a bunch of the others but the 71/84's are my favorites and they sure draw a crowd at the range.


beekeeper

[Good Cheer]

Favorite military that I've owned or fired is an 1888 purchased from the NRA for $35 and then squandered another hundred on a custom cast boolit barrel and mold made to fit it. From the outside it's still the same old ugly. On the bench it would win the cold ones back when the neighborhood range was built in the back of an icehouse. Shooting jacketed in it would literally ruin the barrel so I keep the mold in as new shape. Stuck it in the handles yesterday evening for when I get the chance to fire up the melter.

[badbob454]

Hey, if that is what he can afford to shoot, than let him be happy with what he has.

But then again, I sold my SKS shortly after I rebarrelled a bolt action Mauser to 7.62x39. Now I have a short handy carbine with an effective light-recoiling 30-30 class cartridge that is a lot more accurate than my old SKS.

I'm more concerned about his statement that he can reform 30-06 cases into 7.62x54R for a M44...

Bruce

yeah oops.... i can use 06 to reforn to 8mm mauser , and yes all i can afford , and a nice gun, a great defense, small to med hunting, or plinking gun .its just fun to shoot , and at 4bucks a box or reload cheaper , cant beat it for affordability

[Bob S]

What is an LHO?

Left Hand Operator. Converts the bolt of a K31 into true left hand operation.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[alamogunr]

Most interesting thread. I just found it today and just finished reading every post. I got bit by the milsurp bug about '04 when I bought my first K31. My next after several in between is a Smith-Corona 1903A3. It took me awhile to convince myself to spend the extra $$. There are about 7 or 8 in between including a 1895 Nagant revolver. Ugliest thing I've ever seen.

I'm working on laying in a supply of brass for each of them. I've got a mold(or three) for each one. Luckily, most molds are useful for other guns also.

Oddly enough, I have one non-military rifle purchased under my C&R. It is a Winchester 94 made in 1953 with an original aperture receiver sight.

I've enjoyed the comments by all those whose knowledge and experience exceeds mine by a mile.

Someday I hope to run across a Swiss 1911 or 96/11 in good shape. They are apparently well thought of by those who know. I just think they look great.

I would be curious how many acquire firearms with an eye to passing them on to offspring. I suspect that when mine get divided between my 2 sons that the older will get most of the modern(?) arms and the younger history professor will get the milsurps.

Sorry for the long post. Once I got started I didn't know where to stop.

[Ed in North Texas]

My collecting is now aimed at Grandsons (the Great Grandson and Great Granddaughter are still too young to be a known quantity regarding firearms). My sons already have some, and will get more bequeathed to them.

Oh, and I benefit too! :bigsmyl2:

Ed