Turning boolits

[subsonic]

Some interesting stuff here:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm

After the odd experience with my deer last year, I keep researching this stuff. I do not want to repeat.

I might have been too close. I was no further than 20yds on 3 of the 4 required shots.

[tek4260]

Didn't you post this earlier? I know I have read it before and have even considered gently chucking a Lee 300gr 44 in the drill press and using a file to give it a sharper edge, without reducing the diameter of the meplat.

[subsonic]

I don't think so? I thought I posted something about turning boolits, but could not find an old post to dredge up and hook this to.

I know I have not read this particular link before. If you read down, it talks about close shots tumbling and swerving. Sound familiar?

[44man]

I have had nothing but straight penetration on deer with a WLN or WFN. But a friend had LBT boolts turn twice with side on shots to the chest. Boolits were found in the hams and guts were destroyed. I seen the nose on both boolits were buggered on one side from bone.
I also had one of my 330 gr boolits exit a deer in front of the back leg but the deer was running. I did not break guts but the boolit exited a few feet from entry. The exit hole was round. I think the deer ran over the boolit and the boolit did not turn. I have no explanation. XXXX happens.
I feel to keep any bullet straight, it needs smooth even expansion or no damage to the nose at all.
Over spun rifle bullets or bullets that break up will tumble. But I do not believe in that affect for hunting. That is for people shooting to get around rules of war.

[tek4260]

From the article:

"A wide meplat itself doesn´t guarantee a better performance. You have also to look at the other design features. E.g. a meplat formed only by cutting a hemispherical RN shows no effect."


Sounds a lot like a WFN to me. So how do you go about making a "tip" on your cast boolit like the ones they have on their bullets? I am pretty sure it is not as simple as turning a "step" so to speak in your boolit like I talked about in the previous post.

[subsonic]

I am not even sure I want a supercavitation boolit for deer. I just want mine to go straight.

I think it goes back to the "boolits going to sleep" and the wobble as they come out of the barrel that settles down with range.

Of the boolits you two guys have seen turn or could not explain, were they all CLOSE shots, say under 20yds? Tom, I know you said you could almost reach out and touch your deer you lost....

It looks like long, lean boolits with little bearing surface for weight wobble more, especially when they are spun hard.

Now a boolit with lots of bearing surface for it's weight, from what I'm reading, should settle down quick, especially with a slower twist.

I have no answers, only what I've read.

Guess I need to build a water testing setup. Wish my local range had a hose near the benches... wait, I think they do!:idea::shock:

[subsonic]

I tell you, those bullets sure look a lot like a SWK or Keith with a rounded corner at the bottom of the nose.

[tek4260]

Of the boolits you two guys have seen turn or could not explain, were they all CLOSE shots, say under 20yds? Tom, I know you said you could almost reach out and touch your deer you lost....


Yes that was the 3rd shot that he was that close. Twas with the 429 maggie, 300gr Mihec HP at 1100fps. First shot center chest facing me at close range, second shot down between shoulder blades at about 5 ft in front of stand, third shot in shoulder area as he was jumping straight up from second shot. Pretty much point blank on the 3rd shot. I can't say weather the shots turned, but I had blood on both sides of the trail from the broadside shot and blood down the center of the trail from the between the shoulder shot, so it was shooting all the way through.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/101_2801.jpg

They look to have plenty of bearing surface to stabilize though...

When I was new to HG hunting I loaded 265gr WFNGC Cast Performance over 20gr I4227 for about 1K and those 325gr Keiths over 22gr of H110 for the same 1K/fps. Had no trouble putting deer down relatively quickly. I ran into trouble when I stepped up to 475/480 and ever heavier 45 and 44 hollow point loads. Of course I can't make myself believe that a 265 at 1K will kill better than a 400gr 475 at 1200.

[tek4260]

Had to play around a bit. Home grown Keith I guess.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0986.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0987.jpg

Not hard to replicate. Just line up the crimp groove with the jaw of the chuck, set the stop, and clamp the file in the vise on the table of the press.

[44man]

Solutions are hard. Every shot can act different.
I have done a lot of deer shooting with every revolver, switching out between deer during the season.
I know for a fact that two boolits the same, one from the .45 Colt at 1160 fps and the other from the .44 at 1316 fps, disregarding diameter differences, the .44 kills faster with more internal damage. As distance increases with the .44 where the boolit has slowed, it acts like the .45 at closer ranges. Deer shot at 100 yards with the .44 take longer to die and go farther.
Take the .45 to 1300 fps and it would do as well or better then the .44.
This seems to be the best velocity range for a flat meplat with no expansion. Hollow points alter it all of course.
If I take the same type boolit to over 1600 fps in the 45-70 BFR, I can lose deer, those I find go 200 yards and lungs are intact with just a clean hole. A hollow point or softer boolit cures it right now and can get TOO destructive.
As I have gone up in caliber, .475, .500 JRH, as long as velocity is in the 1300 fps range, hard boolits stun deer so bad they smash into trees and the .500 will turn deer inside out, never would I use a hollow point or softer boolit in these unless velocity is reduced.
Anyway all my hunting with the .44, .475 and .500 JRH has been with water dropped WW boolits, WLN and WFN.
Anything other needs expansion or a hollow point.
I will never, ever shoot a deer again face on with the .500! :veryconfu EVERYTHING in the deer is turned to green mush. :bigsmyl2:
I have never recovered a cast boolit in a deer but you need to alter alloy depending on velocity and a hollow point is better if too slow or too fast.
I have been criticized for my views but I shoot a lot of deer and do a necropsy on all of them.
Take the 300 gr, .44 boolit to around 1300 and you will see a world of difference. I call it boolit work while it is inside the animal. You still need energy applied at the right place, at the right time.
Never think you can shoot too fast either without changing the alloy or nose. You really do need to either speed up or slow a boolit or change the boolit itself to match.

[subsonic]

Tom, if you have a water trough you don't like, and want to experiment, you could probably find some interesting things with lathe-modified boolits.

FWIW, I think your modification is too subtle. I don't know how much effect you get from the step itself, vs the shape at the bottom of the step.

I have often wondered if a "keith" with the front driving band tapered slightly on the front to help center in the forcing cone wouldn't be a great design, especially if you let go of the "heavy as possible" methedology and don't need to put so much lead out front.

[felix]

Yes, always! Better the fit, better the accuracy. ... felix

[timbuck]

http://media.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/pdf/Chart_PDFs/hydrostatic_stabilization.pdf

A Woodleigh bullet. Along the same lines.

[subsonic]

Yes, I am familiar with Woodleigh. I tried really hard to use their 160gr 6.5 bullet in my CZ, but it simply wouldn't stabilize past 100yds. I pushed them 2700fps from my 6.5x55, which is quite a bit over max pressure, but a book load somehow from Hodgdon with H4831SC.

[subsonic]

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=Hydrostatically

There are a couple that might fit in revolvers.

Specifically, the .50 Alsaskan might fit in a .500 Linebaugh and the .45-70 might work in a BFR.

[tek4260]

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=Hydrostatically

Specifically, the .50 Alsaskan might fit in a .500 Linebaugh and the .45-70 might work in a BFR.


Yikes! $4 to $5 each! Think I'll be sticking to the "regular" bullets in my 9.3 CZ for these hill deer.

And on the tapered Keiths, some of the RCBS and Lyman molds have a smaller driving band for the same purpose I assume.

[subsonic]

The tiny driving band up front it just to make sure they'll fit in any revolver out there, no matter how short and tight the throat....

[Frank]

44man:

If I take the same type boolit to over 1600 fps in the 45-70 BFR, I can lose deer, those I find go 200 yards and lungs are intact with just a clean hole.
Maybe where you hit it made it do that. I think you said you hit it in the lungs. Was that the RD 350 grain? Or maybe the bullet broke on something.