Lee size die to swaging die conversion

[dunno.458]

I'm sure someone would have done this, but I've searched to no avail. Please tell me if it has been done.
I'm thinking of a .30 cal bullet for subsonic applications. Wide flat nose (maybe even a Penta hollow point) and a rebated boat tail. Trying to get close to the "tear drop" shape, with good terminal effect.
Take a sized and lubed spitzer (in your chosen weight) of pure cast lead (or close to it). Turn it upside down and mash the point into the RBT, with the hollow point in the "base".
Such a die would have a fixed top punch with the hollow point/knockout pin through it. The bottom punch would form the RBT, most likely would use the stock Lee punch and modify it. Lube will keep the lube rings from being swaged out.
Potential problems;1. Mounting the top punch in the die.(have a few ideas)
2. Bullet sticking on the hp/knockout pin.
Why bother?
I can not find a mould that I can simply shoot bullets backwards from. Lee makes a 90gr SWC but i want heavier.
Tried Lee's 312-155-2R shot backwards but they tumbled EVERYWHERE!
I don't like noisy rifles. I won't be using a suppressor. Will be used for hunting.
I have various .30 cal moulds up to 215gr I can use.
Cheaper/ faster than ordering a custom mould.
Have access to a lathe and got the skills.

So any tips, ideas,alternatives, forseen problems?
Appreciate any input.

[Rangefinder]

Honestly, and it's just opinion because I'm known for doing the same, maybe you're over-thinking things? Subsonic is pretty easy with cast, considering quite a few handguns and even a few rifles fire cast subsonic as the norm. I have a subsonic "pest control" load for my AK (non-cycling) using the 312-160-2R loaded forward over 4gr. Red Dot. Sounds like a .22lr but hits with authority and is VERY accurate on the short range scale.

[dunno.458]

I have to admit Rangefinder. You are right on all counts. I have a lot of other things I could/ should be spending the effort on. But a man needs a hobby.

I have used the 312-155-2R in my CZ 527 and have no complaints.
Just trying to maximise the performance of heavier bullets. Not that I own the "ultimate" in anything, but it would be great to finish ONE project.

Thinking about it last night, a wide flat nose version will be the easiest and the first prototype.
IF i can get around to it.

[firefly1957]

You might do some research into the military attempts I know they tried with little luck. Because it was not possible to stabilize the long tear drop tail they used a gas generator (like a tracer) to reduce drag on the projectiles rear. This was artillery not sure how small it got.

[danr]

i'v done this, you can use a 5.7x28 p90 sizing die.. its shoulder size is .311, then use a .308 bullet sizing die to bring the final down to .308.

i've found that lee dies have a taper thread for the decapping assembly, i drilled and tapped my die with a 1/2x20 tap, then take a bolt the same size, and do a center drill, this gives you a way to mount an ejection punch in the top.
you'll end up with a swage die that creates a bullet with little to no ogive. the trick to giving a longer ogive is to add a stopping mechinism to the ejection punch, then create a reamer to ream the die cavity and punch together for the ogive you want. i used several step drills, and a hand made reamer from hardened drill rod. the hand made reamers are only good for one or two dies, and they break and wear out easily.. but who cares, your only making 1 swage die anyways.

the next trick is to make a way to modify the 5.7x28 brass to be used as jacket material. the ejection rim is smaller than .308 so no problems swaging it into a jacketed 308 projectile. you just need to find an easy way to trim the brass to the length desired.

next you'll have to make a core mold and core seating die.. this is pretty easy, you can use the swage die as a core seating die, just make a ejection punch for it, that is flat based and a bottom punch to fit inside of the case. swage it upside down with a little bit of force to seat the lead.


the trick to converting reloading dies, into swage dies, is to find a caliber that has a shoulder diameter near the size your attempting to create. if your target reloading die is smaller than the desired projectile size, then you can lap it out.. if its larger, then as long as its within a couple of thousands, then you can easily size the final down to desired size.

lee dies are a great source for cheap die bodies, because they are only $15 each, and you can buy just the die bodies. make sure to buy 2 or 3 of them, in case you screw up.

if you have problems center drilling a bolt, you can use the lee decapping assembly nut, just drill that out to the size you need for a ejection punch. the bottom punch can always be made with a hand drill and some file time.

cheers,
DAn

[Rangefinder]

danr>> and the result of what you are describing makes something about like this.

60560

Core is compressed 7 1/2 shot with an airsoft pellet rolled into the nose to help cycling, and finishes at about 105gr. in .311. Loaded full-house, it cycles flawlessly in the AK and is simply amazing as a HD frangible bullet.

[danr]

now that is interesting rangfinder. what case did you use?

reloading die conversions are something of a specialty of mine. i have yet to sell any, and dont have any plans of doing so. but more just getting the knowledge out there that it can be done on the cheap side.

i love the profile of that projectile, though i wonder how stable it is over a long distance.. being a short nose and all. but overall it looks great.

thanks,
dan

[Rangefinder]

That is a 5.7 with the shoulder cut off. The point-form is a lee 220 swift shoulder that I originally got for squeezing 9mm cases into .40S&W but forgot how Lee made their sizer dies, so the dimensions wouldn't run out for a .40 swagged bullet. On the other hand, it did roll a nice RN into anything 30 caliber after I spun out a base punch suited for the job. I've yet to test it in anything other than close-range just to establish it stabilized. But I'd venture it would do well out to 100 yds within minute-of-aggressor. I did play a little with a sectional--80gr. base solid core with a shot front section separated by a .25 cal GC, and ran that up to a consistent 125gr. finished. Haven't done much else with it due to lack of time and too many other projects.

[Malpratice]

Gentelmen.. I have never swagged a booit in brass. the result mystifies me.. I love to make with my own hands that which I can buy.. I want to work with 9mm. I can get another set of dies for 50. I can get swaging dies for 290. I have found brass tubing that is .014 and can use it with a .30 lead mold or close to that .. have to watch the video again.. I have a machinist that can help me if I have all the specs for him.. My Q is, is it cost saving to use lee dies?
Thanks
Mal

[danr]

really, you cant beat the price compared to buying a point form reamer just to make a swage die. the cost savings is huge. consider how many projectiles you would have to make instead of buying projectiles to make the cost of 1 lee reloading die body. humm.. $15 at lee to buy just the body. i think you would just have to swage up about 20 projectiles to pay for its self. cant beat that.

another thing to consider, is that if at least the lee reloading die, can be converted to a swage die, and at very worse they only make a projectile you can use for planking around, no worries about accuracy, just using them for recoil and trigger time.. then the $15 is well worth it.

worse case, you pay $15 for the lee die body, and spend $5 on steel bolts to make the punches, and it never produces a single projectile worthy of being loaded up.. then you paid $20 for some REALLY REALLY GOOD EXPERIENCE.

overall, i considered that a win / win situation.

being that you have never swaged a projectile before.. then i would do ALLOT of reading before attempting it.. but overall, the reading is the easy part, and you may not understand all of it. once you have something you can play with, squish some lead into something, and see results of trail and error, you'll learn the rest very easily. its really not hard to do at all unless your attempting to do so with a lee hand press or a lee single classic.. i really do suggest using a RCBS press for any attempts at swaging. or you'll risk breaking your reloading press.

hope this helps,
cheers
Dan



Gentelmen.. I have never swagged a booit in brass. the result mystifies me.. I love to make with my own hands that which I can buy.. I want to work with 9mm. I can get another set of dies for 50. I can get swaging dies for 290. I have found brass tubing that is .014 and can use it with a .30 lead mold or close to that .. have to watch the video again.. I have a machinist that can help me if I have all the specs for him.. My Q is, is it cost saving to use lee dies?
Thanks
Mal

[danr]

one more thing.. here is a list of reloading dies you can use for converting into a 9mm projectile.

9mm (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23b
**** ;l7 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23


i went with a 17 rem for my 9mm's.


Gentelmen.. I have never swagged a booit in brass. the result mystifies me.. I love to make with my own hands that which I can buy.. I want to work with 9mm. I can get another set of dies for 50. I can get swaging dies for 290. I have found brass tubing that is .014 and can use it with a .30 lead mold or close to that .. have to watch the video again.. I have a machinist that can help me if I have all the specs for him.. My Q is, is it cost saving to use lee dies?
Thanks
Mal

[Relsom]

Nice thread. Now I will have to buy those cheap dies next time I come across them. Knew I needed them but didn't know what for. Nice bullet Rangefinder. Thanks for the info danR.

[danr]

Nice thread. Now I will have to buy those cheap dies next time I come across them. Knew I needed them but didn't know what for. Nice bullet Rangefinder. Thanks for the info danR.

humm.. you can buy them any time at http://leeprecision.com/ under the parts section. they sell just the die bodies for $15 - $20 each brand new.

[Relsom]

reread the original post. What about Lee's 300 Blackout mold from Midway. It's cheap enough to try, heavy bullet, tumble lube. Looks like the profile you described. you could cut the nose to get the weight you want and possibly load backwards? Any heavy bullet will need a fast twist rate to stabilize. good luck.

[Relsom]

humm.. you can buy them any time at http://leeprecision.com/ under the parts section. they sell just the die bodies for $15 - $20 each brand new.

I could have bought some in the $3-5 range, but passed on them due to caliber. I will have to say that Lee is by far the best value.

[Malpratice]

danr, I have 2 rcbs presses.. an older one that you cant change from right to left and one that got here 2 weeks ago.. I mostly do target shooting for practice. I am putting lead rounds down range .358 140 swc with a lapped out 356 lee sizing die. .356 leaded my barrel. they have .223 rifles in stock now and Im getting one this weekend.. and as u know ammo is few and far between.. I have a resource that I can get some from and will need to reload the brass.. set of dies np. mold np.. I want to make nice and accurate projectiles.. when I posted the Q yesterday I had no .223. I would rather swag them if I need to spend the money I want to do it with something that counts. I have plenty of fmj target bullets for my9mm. and many more boolits for it too. I still need to learn about swaging for sure and I am reading and watching as much as my brain will absorb. I just dont want to buy the wrong size dies and waste alot of $$ .
I see alot of guys making and swaging lead wire. no problem. lots of lead and a man to make me a couple of dies cheap.
I thank you for the advise.. I will keep in touch. using a rifle round I should buy a good swaging die.. any recomendations..

[Cane_man]

great information, worth a try imo...

what Lee dies could i use to point swage a 9mm case to a 0.40sw projectile?


one more thing.. here is a list of reloading dies you can use for converting into a 9mm projectile.

9mm (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23b
**** ;l7 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23


i went with a 17 rem for my 9mm's.