Zinc Gas Checks

[Mark85304]

Has anyone heard of this or know anything about it?

Years ago, my shooting buddy (RIP) would cast his .357 boolets with a Zinc washer as a gas check. I think he had a special mould for this. He said Zinc is a natural lubricant for steel. If I remember correctly, the zinc washer was in location where the lube groove would be because he did not lube these boolets. We shot thousands of these from various pistols at or near jacketed bullet magnum velocities.

Mark

[Mugs]

Harvey Prot-X-Bore Zinc-Base Bullets. Developed by Jim Harvey. Special molds made by Lyman to use zinc washers inserted in mold before casting bullet. I have a old Lyman load book that gives load data. Never were very popular.
Mugs

[ReloaderFred]

There are also swaging dies that swage a zinc washer to the base of the bullet. I have one in .38 caliber, but the washers are expensive.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Mark85304]

I was searching eBay for gas checks today and ran across the zinc washer gas checks. http://www.ebay.com/itm/44-Caliber-Pure-ZINC-Gas-Checks-1000-/350401289337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51958b5c79#ht_500wt_1118

I've seen a couple of Lyman moulds for these on eBay, but in cals I don't use.

I wonder why they do not make regular gas checks out of zinc. It can't be the cost of zinc ($.86) vs. copper ($3.51)? With the price of copper today, I'd think zinc would be a good alternative.

[Goatwhiskers]

I could easily be wrong, but I think "zinc" washers are steel washers with a zinc coating. No idea if this makes any difference. Goat

[Pavogrande]

The washers I have for the CH dies are not steel -
As to making gas checks from zinc, it don't bend so good ---

[ReloaderFred]

My zinc washers are also zinc, not steel. At least that's what my magnet tells me.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[guidogoose]

I was searching eBay for gas checks today and ran across the zinc washer gas checks. http://www.ebay.com/itm/44-Caliber-Pure-ZINC-Gas-Checks-1000-/350401289337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51958b5c79#ht_500wt_1118

I've seen a couple of Lyman moulds for these on eBay, but in cals I don't use.

I wonder why they do not make regular gas checks out of zinc. It can't be the cost of zinc ($.86) vs. copper ($3.51)? With the price of copper today, I'd think zinc would be a good alternative.
Making gas checks out of zinc really would not be of any use as its melting point is only 100 degrees Celsius over lead.

Melting points of various metals Celsius

Lead 327
Zinc 419
Aluminum 660
Copper 1084

The reason gas checks are copper is its relatively high melting point and its not abrasive like aluminum. Its also soft enough not to scratch the barrel as steel would. Hope this helps.

[Mark85304]

These 100% zinc washers were place inside the boolit mould before casting. The molten alloy flowed through the hole in the zinc washer locking it into place. My friend cast thousands of these in the 70s. He never lubricated these boolits as he told me that zinc is a natural lubricant for steel. Thus my question about zinc gas checks.

[btroj]

Making gas checks out of zinc really would not be of any use as its melting point is only 100 degrees Celsius over lead.

Melting points of various metals Celsius

Lead 327
Zinc 419
Aluminum 660
Copper 1084

The reason gas checks are copper is its relatively high melting point and its not abrasive like aluminum. Its also soft enough not to scratch the barrel as steel would. Hope this helps.


What?

The gas check isn't going to melt if made form zinc. The melt point inst the issue, it is the hardness of the metal that matters.

As for aluminum being abrasive, we have members here who have been making Al checks, and using them, for quite some time with NO barrel wear.

Not sure where you got this info but it sure is off the mark.

[guidogoose]

What?

The gas check isn't going to melt if made form zinc. The melt point inst the issue, it is the hardness of the metal that matters.

As for aluminum being abrasive, we have members here who have been making Al checks, and using them, for quite some time with NO barrel wear.

Not sure where you got this info but it sure is off the mark.

I am saying that zinc "could' melt. There is a reason why Hornady is using copper. If they felt something cheaper than copper would be more more efficient, I'm sure that's the metal they would be using. As far as AL being abrasive it is. That's why it is used for making sand paper. I'm sure that people are using aluminum without problems but seeing how Hornady's can be purchased for all of 3 cents a piece. I am not going to risk my barrels. I, personally, do not consider 3 cents a major purchase. To each their own... What material are bullet jackets made from??? Copper and there's a reason for it. The same reasons why gas checks are made of copper.

[shotman]

they dont make sandpaper out of aluminum. That is aluminum oxide.
The reason for the check is to protect the base from hi heat. 2200+FPS
the old zinc washer boolits were large and didnt get shot at 2000+ FPS
as for "lube" for steel----Try about 10 non lubed cast and tell me it is lube for steel.

[perotter]

as for "lube" for steel----Try about 10 non lubed cast and tell me it is lube for steel.

I think you are confusing being a lubricant with with sticking to steel. The reason that they make zinc gear boxes is because the zinc is a lube for steel shafts. Also, zinc is an additive to oil for high load applications.

And yes, I have shot non lubed cast zinc bullets in a rifles.

[btroj]

Ever think Hornady uses guilding metal for gas checks because it is what they are used to working with? I can guarantee that many factors went into what metals would be used for bullet jackets and that melting point wasn't a key factor.

A gas check will not melt in the bore. Period.

Many of us here us a polyester fiber as a filler to hold light powder charges over the primer. The stuff melts quite readily. It doesn't melt in the barrel at all, it is just blown out of the muzzle. no plastic residue in my barrels after using it.

How can bullet lube remain on a bullet after firing? It doesn't melt off? How can that be? It melts at a lower temp than zinc!

As for Al checks. They wouldn't bother me one bit. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, aluminum itself is not. We the search function on this site, look at the amount of work done with Al checks. Might just open your eyes.

For a first post you sure opened a can of worms.

[shotman]

ok if zinc works, why lube any boolit . throw the WW out and cast with pure zinc. many on here want to save money, that would save money

[btroj]

Zinc was used in the past to "protect" the base of some handgun bullets. I think is did more to help seal the bore than anything.

This is old school stuff and if it was really a viable option it would be in widespread use. Time has determined tha a traditional lube groove bullet, with or with a check, is the best option.

As for casting withies zinc, it can and has been done. It has a few issues. The pure is hard enou that it can be difficult to cut unless done before full hardening. The bullets would be very difficult to size down and appreciable amount. The bullets are also very hard and will now expand at all so they may not be fpgreat in many hunting situations. Also bad for hunting is the huge weight loss for a given size bullet, this would reduce penetration a large amount.

Again, if zinc bullets were a viable option they would be seeing use in a meaningful way.

Shooters tend to be willing to try almost any new gimmick that comes along. In e long haul they also tend to gravitate towards things that are workable and inexpensive. Cast bullet shooters have stayed with traditional lead based, grease groove bullets for a reason. They work well and are easy to get good results from. Other ideas have been tried and found to be generally lacking.

Go look at some relapsing magazines or books from the 60 or 70s and you will be amazed at all the things that were tried. History tells us that what we use today is used for a reason, it works.

[guidogoose]

Ever think Hornady uses guilding metal for gas checks because it is what they are used to working with? I can guarantee that many factors went into what metals would be used for bullet jackets and that melting point wasn't a key factor.

A gas check will not melt in the bore. Period.

Many of us here us a polyester fiber as a filler to hold light powder charges over the primer. The stuff melts quite readily. It doesn't melt in the barrel at all, it is just blown out of the muzzle. no plastic residue in my barrels after using it.

How can bullet lube remain on a bullet after firing? It doesn't melt off? How can that be? It melts at a lower temp than zinc!

As for Al checks. They wouldn't bother me one bit. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, aluminum itself is not. We the search function on this site, look at the amount of work done with Al checks. Might just open your eyes.

For a first post you sure opened a can of worms.

I opened a can of worms huh? By stating the fact that commercially produced gas checks are made out of copper, that opens a can of worms huh? I wonder why I can not buy GC made out of zinc, aluminum or whatever else. Maybe its because that is what works the best for what ever the reason is. I am aware of what aluminum oxide is. Its aluminum and oxygen. My apologies for not realizing that you produced your bullets and / or gas checks in an oxygen free environment. For what "your oxygen free ballistics lab" must have cost, I will continue to purchase my checks of Copper from Hornady at the budget busting price of 3 cents!! Since you live in Nebraska, why dont you call or visit the folks in Grand Island, Ne at the Hornady plant and find out once and for all why they produce their checks out of copper? Oh my bad, I mean gilding metal. Maybe I should refer to it as red brass as its an alloy of 95 % cu and 5 % zn. I certainly don't want to "open a can of worms" on my third post. By the way, thanks for the warm welcome to this site.

[Love Life]

I opened a can of worms huh? By stating the fact that commercially produced gas checks are made out of copper, that opens a can of worms huh? I wonder why I can not buy GC made out of zinc, aluminum or whatever else. Maybe its because that is what works the best for what ever the reason is. I am aware of what aluminum oxide is. Its aluminum and oxygen. My apologies for not realizing that you produced your bullets and / or gas checks in an oxygen free environment. For what "your oxygen free ballistics lab" must have cost, I will continue to purchase my checks of Copper from Hornady at the budget busting price of 3 cents!! Since you live in Nebraska, why dont you call or visit the folks in Grand Island, Ne at the Hornady plant and find out once and for all why they produce their checks out of copper? Oh my bad, I mean gilding metal. Maybe I should refer to it as red brass as its an alloy of 95 % cu and 5 % zn. I certainly don't want to "open a can of worms" on my third post. By the way, thanks for the warm welcome to this site.

A couple things here. I have used many aluminum gas checks with no bore wear what so ever. That isn't scientific, but the proof is in the pudding.

Moving along. I don't have an oxygen free lab to puch out gas checks in. I just have common sense and don't make checks with aluminum that has oxidation on it. It is so easy a caveman can do it.

As for the warm welcome that is entirely your fault. You came in here with an unsupported statement, and then proceeded to start a pissing contest when you were proven wrong with experience, and when your idea was questioned. Then you went to wikipedia to get more info to support your case, and it just didn't work.

Copper is used for many reasons. Aluminum is used for many reasons. Zinc isn't used for many reasons.

I suggest you back away from the idea and conversation, take a deep breath, and then re-engage. There are many other parts of Cast Boolits that you can read that may not increase your blood pressure.

[Mugs]

Aluminium is remarkable for the metal's low density and for its ability to resist corrosion due to the phenomenon of passivation.Aluminium oxide is responsible for the resistance of metallic aluminium to weathering. Metallic aluminium is very reactive with atmospheric oxygen, and a thin passivation layer of alumina (4 nm thickness) forms on any exposed aluminium surface. This layer protects the metal from further oxidation.
I think at 4 nm I can't shoot long enough to wear out a barrel. A nm is a billionth of a meter.

Mugs

[btroj]

Sorry if I came across a bit strong but over the years many guys have come here with all the knowledge in the world and no experience. It gets old pretty quick.

Like Love Life said, many here use Al checks.

I don't make my own checks, not enough time to devote to that. Many here do it not to save money but because they can. Many here wouldn't be caught dead buying something they could make themselves. Copper sheet is way too expensive for home made checks compared to AL. A roll of Al can be bought for 15 bucks and that roll will make maybe 4 or 5 thousand checks. For a high volume shooter that can safe a heap of money, fast.

The whole aluminum oxide thing has been so hashed over here that it is dead, buried, dug up and killed again. It just isn't a factor.

As for Hornady using gilding metal for checks I can about guarantee it is because they have a good supplier for it and they have expertise in working with it. Years and years of bullet jacket forming gives them the knowledge they need. Using zinc would mean knew knowledge, a different supplier, and more materials on hand. All those are bad for business.

The only zinc "checks" I can really remember hearing of were the Harvey Pro-tex bore. These we intended to allow softer alloys with no lube to be used in things like a 45 ACP. I don't have first hand knowledge but will go out on a limb and say it just was a viable design. I don't need the burns from placing a small disk of metal in a hot mould. No thanks.

That idea was from a period of extreme testing in all aspects of shooting and loading. I don't know what wasn't tried. Some ideas lasted, many did not.

We are a very friendly bunch here. We just need a chance to get to know people. Coming out with a first post that puts out info that is known to be wrong doesn't set well with some of us. We have been down that road enough times that it gets tiresome.

No insult was intended buti will stand by my remarks.

[bowfin]

During the Civil War, Zinc washers were put on some Minie balls to clean out accumulated fouling during a battle:

http://www.civilwaroutpost.com/m13/3--williams-cleaner-type-iii.html

I don't know if pertinent to the matter at hand, but zinc bases have been used before, although maybe for a different reason.

[guidogoose]

My blood pressure is just fine. This post was started in April. I gave my. 02 cents as to why I feel zinc isnt used. The point is is that it isnt. I joined this site to possibly learn some things not to get into a pissing contest. As far as aluminum is concerned its not for me personally. If anyone wants to use it more power to them. Its a free country do what you want to do.

[Love Life]

My blood pressure is just fine. This post was started in April. I gave my. 02 cents as to why I feel zinc isnt used. The point is is that it isnt. I joined this site to possibly learn some things not to get into a pissing contest. As far as aluminum is concerned its not for me personally. If anyone wants to use it more power to them. Its a free country do what you want to do.

I will do exactly that. You take care and enjoy the forum. Going off of the average age of the members I say there must be a combined 20,000,000 years of casting, reloading, gunsmithing, and shooting experience. :bigsmyl2:

[guidogoose]

I will do exactly that. You take care and enjoy the forum. Going off of the average age of the members I say there must be a combined 20,000,000 years of casting, reloading, gunsmithing, and shooting experience. :bigsmyl2:

You take care as well sir.

[perotter]

ok if zinc works, why lube any boolit . throw the WW out and cast with pure zinc. many on here want to save money, that would save money

Pure zinc doesn't cast real well. It is better to cast one of the zinc alloys.

[1Shirt]

I remember shooting some of the zinc washer blts in (I think) a 44 Spec. that belonged to a friend of mines dad. They were unlubed, and shot over a load of Unique (I do remember that). They shot well, but I remember that they were not as accurate as were regular plain base 44's. But then again, that was well over 50 years ago, when you could buy that mold, as well as the one for banded cast for 311284's as well direct from Lyman. Times change.
1Shirt1

[Cadillo]

Making gas checks out of zinc really would not be of any use as its melting point is only 100 degrees Celsius over lead.

Melting points of various metals Celsius

Lead 327
Zinc 419
Aluminum 660
Copper 1084

The reason gas checks are copper is its relatively high melting point and its not abrasive like aluminum. Its also soft enough not to scratch the barrel as steel would. Hope this helps.

Doesn't that extrapolate out to about a 212 degree F difference? Anyone who uses a thermometer to gauge their heat should be able to work that out. I smelt wheel weights and am able to simply skim off the zinc wheel weights, as I keep my temp well under Zinc's melting point.

Maybe I'm missing something! Just curious.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

The zinc washer trick was used in the War of Northern Agression to clean the fouling out of rifle barrels. Both sides used bullets with zinc washers cast as part of the bullet to scrape he fouling out of the barrels so they could shoot each other longer without cleaning the rifles.
CF

[Elkins45]

So back to the original topic of the bullets with the cast on zinc washer---am I understanding correctly that you were supposed to shoot them unlubricated? I'll admit I'm a bit surprised by that.

That certainly seems like strong support for the argument that leading is actually caused by gas cutting of the boolet base rather than by mechanical abrasion, doesn't it? Since the zinc base washer protected the base from flame cutting, no leading could occur. Or did some lead get deposited but was scraped out by the harder zinc washer?

It's an interesting concept. I would love to play with some of those old Harvey bullets. I seem to remember Dean Grinnell mentioning Harvey in one of his books--IIRC he and his whole family were killed in an automobile accident. That may explain why the concept has slowly faded over time without him around to keep pushing the envelope.

[JMax]

One thing that we may want to keep in mind is the Galvanic table. Zinc does have similar melting characteristics to tin and was tried as a replacement for lead in lead free solder alloys with less than enthuastic results going back to it's high galvanic potential. Remember it is used to sacrifice itself instead of other portions of boats, ground spikes, piping because it does corrode or sacrifice itself. For me there is too much potential difference between zinc and copper to be of interest for my use.

John