What direction would you go?

[12DMAX]

I have almost got my BH lead free! I would like some input on what I should be looking at next. I have a NMBH in 45 colt, cylinders all measure a uniform .4525, I am shooting 255 RNFP ACWW sized to .4533, TL with 45/45/10. Loading these with 8gr unique and 10.5 gr HS-6 I am getting some throat leading, cylinder face leading and a nice uniform doughnut ring in the forcing cone.

[Frank]

Slower powder, water dropped boolits.

[12DMAX]

Frank, could you give me your explanation as to what's going on here? Appreciate it!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

You might need to slug your barrel, and check the cylinder gap. If the barrel slugs bigger then the chambers your gun will have leading and accuracy issues. Excessive cylinder gap can do this as well. Is the gun "spitting" lead to the either side when fired? If so the revolver could be out of time.

Another thing to check would be the diameter of the Boolit from a pulled round.

[12DMAX]

Groove is .451

cyl gap is .008

pulled bullet measures .453

[Frank]

120MAX:

Frank, could you give me your explanation as to what's going on here? Appreciate it!
I would prefer a powerful and accurate Ruger-only load. I'd go with an LBT WLN or WFN, H110 & Win LP primers and Starline brass. I would drill it and tap it for a scope mount for load development. Then take the scope off and carry it on a belt holster (4-5.5") or shoulder rig (7.5").

12DMAX:

cyl gap is .008
That's too much. You should probably send it back to Ruger, unless someone else has a better idea.

[newton]

I'm going to be interested in how this turns out. I hope you keep us updated on your progress and such. I have a NMBH 45convertable. Before I sent it back to Ruger(hammer issue), I put 24 rounds through it. I got some real bad leading.

I cleaned and slugged it before I shipped it off and the measurements seem right in line with yours. Except I am sizing my boolits at .452", which they barely go through the throats when given a good push.

My thoughts seem to lean more toward a softer boolit for starters. I am using 50/50 pure lead/ww, and air cooling them. They are soft for sure. Then I did a soft lube that I filled the grooves with, where as before I was just using a tumble lube.

I am also using a 255 rnfp, lee mold. And, once again, I used 8 grains Unique for most rounds, except 6 with 8 grains of Herco(should have been a touch slower), and then I ran 6 with 6 grains of Unique. Those 6, with the 6 grains Unique, gave me the best group but cannot say much about the leading as I did not notice how much was there before they were shot.

I am not an expert, and seeing how I am almost in the same boat as you, I would try a different lube, different boolit size, and different alloy.

Are the boolits hard to chamber? It seems if the boolit is sized over that of the throat then it would be hard to chamber. I know you dont want an excessively undersized boolit, but I thought it needs to be a tad smaller if not the same size of the throat.

One guy on here is using .451" out of his reamed out .4525 throats, and if I am not mistaken a .451" bore. And his groups are phenomenal with little to no leading. I forget what alloy or lube he uses, I think he is buying his actually, but non the less its interesting.

[newton]

Come to think of it, I know he was using a stouter charge in his rounds. I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 9 grains of Unique.

[Larry Gibson]

+1 on 8.5 - 9 gr Unique. Add 2% tin to the WWs as it alloys better with the antimony and makes better over all alloy. I would then add 40 - 50% lead to the WW + tin alloy. I would switch back to straight LLA and apply and size as per the instructions.

Larry Gibson

[12DMAX]

I hope you keep us updated on your progress and such

I will do that.



Are the boolits hard to chamber? It seems if the boolit is sized over that of the throat then it would be hard to chamber. I know you dont want an excessively undersized boolit, but I thought it needs to be a tad smaller if not the same size of the throat.

No, that bullet style wont enter the throats when chambered so no fit issue.


+1 on 8.5 - 9 gr Unique. Add 2% tin to the WWs as it alloys better with the antimony and makes better over all alloy. I would then add 40 - 50% lead to the WW + tin alloy. I would switch back to straight LLA and apply and size as per the instructions.


Larry im trying to follow all this so bear with me guys. What is going on with my charges of powder that need changed?

[MtGun44]

Not sure, but know that 8-9 gr is very often very successful. I would not
go harder as a general rule.

Fit is #1, then design and lube must be right, then powder, usually.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

With the case capacity/expansion ratio of the 45 Colt Unique does not really start burning efficiently until 8.5 gr under 250 - 260 gr cast bullets in my revolvers. The 2% tin will make the WW alloy a much better alloy and adding the 40-50% lead will soften it and stretch out the WW.s At standard .45 Colt psi's and velocities the BHN does not need to be what it is with WWs alone. LLA, if that's what you want to use (I don't have a problem with using LLA for such loads) is best used as directed and straight. Attempting to "improve" or "fix" it many times leads to leading.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

When you slugged your barrel did you notice thread restriction?

[12DMAX]

With the case capacity/expansion ratio of the 45 Colt Unique does not really start burning efficiently until 8.5 gr under 250 - 260 gr cast bullets in my revolvers. The 2% tin will make the WW alloy a much better alloy and adding the 40-50% lead will soften it and stretch out the WW.s At standard .45 Colt psi's and velocities the BHN does not need to be what it is with WWs alone. LLA, if that's what you want to use (I don't have a problem with using LLA for such loads) is best used as directed and straight. Attempting to "improve" or "fix" it many times leads to leading.

Gotcha. Will stick-on's suffice for the lead?


When you slugged your barrel did you notice thread restriction?

Yes there was a 5/10000 restriction that I was able to lap out. Bore is a nice .451 now.


Is the gun "spitting" lead to the either side when fired? If so the revolver could be out of time.

Yes, it does spit some lead. I too thought a timing issue ( it may be) looking down the barrel with gun in full lock up it sure looks good ( in time ) to me.

[44man]

I have almost got my BH lead free! I would like some input on what I should be looking at next. I have a NMBH in 45 colt, cylinders all measure a uniform .4525, I am shooting 255 RNFP ACWW sized to .4533, TL with 45/45/10. Loading these with 8gr unique and 10.5 gr HS-6 I am getting some throat leading, cylinder face leading and a nice uniform doughnut ring in the forcing cone.
Boolits are too large! It does no good at all to make the throats into size dies.
Shoot .452" boolits.

[12DMAX]

I wish I had a GOOD camera to snap a pic of the forcing cone. Picture looking in the cone, the circle of lead starts right at the 90 degree shoulder and moves forward 1/16" if you could get it out in one piece it would be a 1/16 wide ring you could put on your finger.

[12DMAX]

Boolits are too large! It does no good at all to make the throats into size dies.
Shoot .452" boolits.

I was also thinking this, wanted to hear more about this before I bought another die.

[12DMAX]

Ok, ACWW sized to .452 and lubed with alox charged with 8, 8.5 and 9 grains of unique all leaded up the cylinder face and cone. So far the least amount of leading has been the 10.5 charge of HS-6 with bullets sized to .453 and the worst was the .452 and 9 gr unique.

[44man]

Ok, ACWW sized to .452 and lubed with alox charged with 8, 8.5 and 9 grains of unique all leaded up the cylinder face and cone. So far the least amount of leading has been the 10.5 charge of HS-6 with bullets sized to .453 and the worst was the .452 and 9 gr unique.
ALOX!!!!! I can NOT use the stuff without leading.
Water drop your boolits to withstand the thump of fast powders. Notice HS-6 was best because it is slower.
What are your WW's made of? Did you melt stick on weights with them? Some stick on weights are ZINC.
A good water dropped WW boolit will be 22 BHN.
Leading on the cylinder face means total slump of the boolit with lead squirting from the gap. Total loss of lube at the gap too.
Soft boolits and fast powders! Something is wrong with your alloy.

[lbaize3]

Had the same problem with a RBH 45 Colt. Cut barrel throat to 11 degrees and problem solved. Cutter set available at Brownells... not really expensive.

[Frank]

Bullet Hardness, Lubrication, ....

You obviously have problems with all of the above.

The quickest solution would be to water drop your bullets, get some LBT lube and report back. :coffeecom:

[12DMAX]

lbaize3 Had the same problem with a RBH 45 Colt. Cut barrel throat to 11 degrees and problem solved. Cutter set available at Brownells... not really expensive.

I have seen that discussed about the cone angle. I am too new at this casting and making mistakes to start altering the gun. :bigsmyl2: However, i have read alot about the location of my leading and signs do point to the gun. For now I am going to test and tune with alloy and bullet size.

[12DMAX]

Some more testing done.

ACWW + 1.5%, sized .452/.453/454 , LLA lube

unique - 8.... 8.5....9 gr's all lead throats, cylinder face, cone and streak the barrel

HS-6 - 10.5.... 11.... 11.5 grs same as above


WDWW + 1.5%, .452/.453/.454, LLA

all loads the same as above, leading was still there but not as bad.


I am really starting to think this may be a gun issue, Timing and cylinder gap. I have 2 chambers ( face) that lead more than the other 4 and today really noticed lead spitting. My loads just dont seem to be out of line for pressures/Brinell.

I need to look at a possible lube issue next but I dont have a lubra-sizer yet, will probably have to pan lube for now to do more testing. Any recommendations for pan lube?

[MtGun44]

If you are TLing these, I suggest NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue instead.

AC wwts should not be too soft, should not be a problem at this load level.

I rarely find that Frank and I are on the same side of an issue.

Bill

[12DMAX]

ok, i think I may have found a culprit to my problem. I had my cylinder work done by a "Gunsmith", reamed them all uniform BUT after closer inspection they are rough as ****. You can not feel it with a patch or Q-Tip but a pencil tip across them feels like a washboard. Could it be my boolits are being compromised here and causing my issue? I am no expert but I would think so.

[Frank]

12DMAX:

ok, i think I may have found a culprit to my problem. I had my cylinder work done by a "Gunsmith", reamed them all uniform BUT after closer inspection they are rough as ****. You can not feel it with a patch or Q-Tip but a pencil tip across them feels like a washboard. Could it be my boolits are being compromised here and causing my issue? I am no expert but I would think so.
You gotta take a picture or it didn't happen. C'mon, what do you mean 'like a washboard?' We've been using washing machines now for 100 years. :brokenima

[12DMAX]

Well frank it would be something like running your hands on this:bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

12DMAX:

Well frank it would be something like running your hands on this
What is wrong with Ruger? Big gaps, washboard cylinders? Why spend $600, then you have to pay more to make it right. Buy what's right the first time.

[44man]

Had the same problem with a RBH 45 Colt. Cut barrel throat to 11 degrees and problem solved. Cutter set available at Brownells... not really expensive.
That will not help cylinder face leading. Lead is squirting from the gap.
It is very common with .38's and soft wad cutters.
This is not melted lead from powder or gas cutting but is from high pressure that turns soft lead into silly putty. It is like shooting modeling clay.
Instant pressure is the enemy. The boolit meets resistance at the cone and sort of slows but the pressure behind has to get out. The gap is the easy path.
Think of it like a nozzle on your water hose with a bad gasket. A piston with worn rings.
I do not believe it is some throat roughness or out of line chambers, there should be enough play for the cylinder to line up.
I bet this is an alloy and lube problem.

[Stick_man]

That will not help cylinder face leading. Lead is squirting from the gap.
It is very common with .38's and soft wad cutters.
This is not melted lead from powder or gas cutting but is from high pressure that turns soft lead into silly putty. It is like shooting modeling clay.
Instant pressure is the enemy. The boolit meets resistance at the cone and sort of slows but the pressure behind has to get out. The gap is the easy path.
Think of it like a nozzle on your water hose with a bad gasket. A piston with worn rings.
I do not believe it is some throat roughness or out of line chambers, there should be enough play for the cylinder to line up.
I bet this is an alloy and lube problem.

This is likely the cause of your "spitting" at the cylinder face. I don't know much about Rugers, but I do know that Dan Wesson recommends no more than a .006 cylinder gap and many shooters go between .002-004 for best performance. Getting the gap corrected won't necessarily solve your leading issues, but it will eliminate most of the spitting and provide for better velocities. If you are spitting lube out in that gap, reducing the gap could help with the leading too.

Best of luck.

[12DMAX]

Let me go over this again, dimensionally my gun is good, I suggested the rough cylinders because my leading seems to be starting there then onto my cylinder face and into my forcing cone. I do get some lead streaking my barrel but I am ASSUMING this is directly related to my problem.

I have shot Aircooled WW+tin sized to .452, .453, .454, TL with LLA , 8, 8.5 and 9 gr of unique and they all give the same results.

I have shot H2O WW+tin sized to .452, .453, .454, TL with LLA, 8, 8.5 and 9 gr of unique and all give the same result.

Pan lubing with lyman 50/50 helped alot but did not fix it.

I am in the process of alloying 50/50 ww-lead + tin as suggested and will use the same charges as above and pan lube with some Lars 50/50 as soon as it arrives.

I am leaving the LLA out for now till I get a better handle on this.

[44man]

This is likely the cause of your "spitting" at the cylinder face. I don't know much about Rugers, but I do know that Dan Wesson recommends no more than a .006 cylinder gap and many shooters go between .002-004 for best performance. Getting the gap corrected won't necessarily solve your leading issues, but it will eliminate most of the spitting and provide for better velocities. If you are spitting lube out in that gap, reducing the gap could help with the leading too.

Best of luck.
Gaps have not proven to be a cure. You are correct about leading issues. Yet you are wrong about making the gap smaller to help.
It does not matter if the gap is .002" to .006". That does not change how the alloy crosses it. A smaller gap will just increase pressure and cut frames more. FPS increase is a mute point with smaller gaps.

[subsonic]

Try 7gr of Unique.

[12DMAX]

Try 7gr of Unique.

I will try that, I am really trying to get this gun/load into the 800-900fps range. Really enjoying this making boolits but getting them to shoot :killingpc Man!

[Frank]

12DMAX:

I will try that, I am really trying to get this gun/load into the 800-900fps range. Really enjoying this making boolits but getting them to shoot
I really enjoyed shooting my .45 Colt 340 grain WLN with 25 grains of H110! It makes you appreciate and feel the difference! Those .22 swingers at 50 yards left behind took a tumble though. [smilie=l:

[12DMAX]

I really enjoyed shooting my .45 Colt 340 grain WLN with 25 grains of H110! It makes you appreciate and feel the difference! Those .22 swingers at 50 yards left behind took a tumble though.

I have been known to light off a few cylinders of 300 XTP's in front of some 296:bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

12DMAX

I am in the process of alloying 50/50 ww-lead + tin as suggested and will use the same charges as above and pan lube with some Lars 50/50 as soon as it arrives.

I am leaving the LLA out for now till I get a better handle on this

You are at the point where you have got a lot of suggestions and are changing too many things at the same time. I suggest you do the above; cast the bullets of that alloy, Size them at .452 and pan lube with the Lars 50/50. Then load them over 8.5 gr Unique using the same cases and the same primers. Test them.

If the leading is still occuring on the cylinder face and the barrel forcing cone then do not change the load but have the forcing cone reamed slightly with the 11 degree cutter as mentioned. You can get the reamer from Brownell's and do it yourself or have a gunsmith do it if you are not confident in your own abilities at such. I have the tool and have solved several such problems. But
you must know that is the problem before doing it. You can not know that is the problem by changing so many different things at the same time.

The 8.5 gr load is a standard "classic" 45 Colt load that will give the velocity you want. I have shot that load for years in numerous .45 Colts with good results and have never had it shoot "bad" or lead in any that didn't have a mechanical problem like the forcing cone being too small.

Stick with one load and the same componants untill you are sure it is not the gun. Then with that solved and if the leading problem persists change one thing at a time with the load and test before changing another.

Larry Gibson

[Frank]

12DMAX:


Quote:
I really enjoyed shooting my .45 Colt 340 grain WLN with 25 grains of H110! It makes you appreciate and feel the difference! Those .22 swingers at 50 yards left behind took a tumble though.
I have been known to light off a few cylinders of 300 XTP's in front of some 296
My point wasn't, "Look what I can do," but with Rugers and properly designed heavy bullets it's really not that bad, more a push with the slow powder.

[12DMAX]

Frank, I knew what your point was. I enjoy those big thumper loads too:-) But I dont have a need for that kind of thunder on a regular basis.


You are at the point where you have got a lot of suggestions and are changing too many things at the same time. I suggest you do the above; cast the bullets of that alloy, Size them at .452 and pan lube with the Lars 50/50. Then load them over 8.5 gr Unique using the same cases and the same primers. Test them.

If the leading is still occuring on the cylinder face and the barrel forcing cone then do not change the load but have the forcing cone reamed slightly with the 11 degree cutter as mentioned. You can get the reamer from Brownell's and do it yourself or have a gunsmith do it if you are not confident in your own abilities at such. I have the tool and have solved several such problems. But
you must know that is the problem before doing it. You can not know that is the problem by changing so many different things at the same time.

The 8.5 gr load is a standard "classic" 45 Colt load that will give the velocity you want. I have shot that load for years in numerous .45 Colts with good results and have never had it shoot "bad" or lead in any that didn't have a mechanical problem like the forcing cone being too small.

Stick with one load and the same componants untill you are sure it is not the gun. Then with that solved and if the leading problem persists change one thing at a time with the load and test before changing another.

Larry Gibson

I understand what your saying, I am going to start all over again with your advice.

Thank you.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I run into this same problem with guys trying to trouble shoot what is wrong with their diesel engines.

They want to change everything at once and then can't figure what is wrong when the engine doesn't perform as expected.

The only way to suss a complicated problem out is the change one component of the problem and test, if that doesn't work then change it back and then change something else.

Only then will you be able to figure this problem out. Other wise you just chase the problem and never win unless you get lucky. Even then you never really know what the actual problem was.

I have another solution: It is a well known fact that some guns are just prone to leading. Shooting a Thompson Gas Check design such as Lyman 452490 CG will fix it for good. I realize you probably don't want to shoot gas checks, however they are alot cheaper (especially if you make them yourself) than all the gunsmithing you may need to fix this gun. They would also fix the lead spitting problem.

Rather than chasing this problem you could just be shooting. [smilie=b:

Good article on Thompson boolits by Brian Pearce in this months Handloader . 7 good loads for the 452490 in 45 LC given, as well as some for .44 spec/mag and 38's too.

Another option is to learn to live with the problem. I personally don't like this one, as it is just not any fun. :Fire:

Randy

[12DMAX]

I run into this same problem with guys trying to trouble shoot what is wrong with their diesel engines.

They want to change everything at once and then can't figure what is wrong when the engine doesn't perform as expected.

The only way to suss a complicated problem out is the change one component of the problem and test, if that doesn't work then change it back and then change something else.

Only then will you be able to figure this problem out. Other wise you just chase the problem and never win unless you get lucky. Even then you never really know what the actual problem was.

I have another solution: It is a well known fact that some guns are just prone to leading. Shooting a Thompson Gas Check design such as Lyman 452490 CG will fix it for good. I realize you probably don't want to shoot gas checks, however they are alot cheaper (especially if you make them yourself) than all the gunsmithing you may need to fix this gun. They would also fix the lead spitting problem.

Rather than chasing this problem you could just be shooting.

Good article on Thompson boolits by Brian Pearce in this months Handloader . 7 good loads for the 452490 in 45 LC given, as well as some for .44 spec/mag and 38's too.

Another option is to learn to live with the problem. I personally don't like this one, as it is just not any fun.

Randy

Right, that is why I am starting all over again. Just waiting on some lube. I have not ruled out gas checks if that is what it comes to, it certainly is still alot cheaper than buying bullets retail. I am new at casting and probably no doubt a little anxious to figure this out. Back it up, one step at a time and take better notes. I appreciate all the help people give. I live in an area with a strong shooting sports culture but have been unsucessful as of yet to find a mentor to show me the errors of my ways. I am going to take Mr. Gibsons advice and proceed from there. I agree with you, I cannot live with this problem:-P Fortunately I have many other shooters to get some range time with to keep me sane.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You picked a good one to listen too. Larry has got a pretty good idea of what he is talking about.

Do check out the article in this months Handloader Mag on the Thompson Boolits By Brian Pearce.

Barnes and Noble usually has the mag on their Mag Rack.

Randy

[12DMAX]

received my 50/50 lube from larsens, loaded some 452664's as cast from 50/50 mix of WW+2% and pure, 8.5 gr unique. Well Larry your advice was right on the money, I have no more leading on my cylinder face or forcing cone. That issue is solved:D I do however have some leading just forward of the forcing cone, a patch of lead at the very beginning of each land and following them on down the barrel.

[bigboredad]

12DMAX the .45 is my favorite caliber and the one I shoot the most cast for and try to read and understand as much as I can. So far I really don't understand a thing except in my experience you can make unique work with 250gr bullets but as you have found it can be a pia and you also have found the importance of using a quality lube. The only thing I can offer that what I have found is unique is just a touch too fast for the big ole girl. When I went to 2400 Things became a lot easier an I was able to spend more time shooting and less time chasing problems. For the the 250 I have found 16gr to be a fabulous match as far as accuracy recoil and clean up now of course these are my guns and my experiences. I'm not suggesting to run out and buy a can of 2400 but When you get a chance you may want to give it a try. The only down side is that it is not as economical as unique.

I also prefer to stick with bullets that start at about 290gr and go up as they seem to fly much better for me and when you start getting into that weight it becomes much much easier to work with 2400 and a 290 or 300 at 850-950 is a day full of fun and suprisingly easy on the hand. good luck and enjoy

[12DMAX]

12DMAX the .45 is my favorite caliber and the one I shoot the most cast for and try to read and understand as much as I can. So far I really don't understand a thing except in my experience you can make unique work with 250gr bullets but as you have found it can be a pia and you also have found the importance of using a quality lube. The only thing I can offer that what I have found is unique is just a touch too fast for the big ole girl. When I went to 2400 Things became a lot easier an I was able to spend more time shooting and less time chasing problems. For the the 250 I have found 16gr to be a fabulous match as far as accuracy recoil and clean up now of course these are my guns and my experiences. I'm not suggesting to run out and buy a can of 2400 but When you get a chance you may want to give it a try. The only down side is that it is not as economical as unique.

I also prefer to stick with bullets that start at about 290gr and go up as they seem to fly much better for me and when you start getting into that weight it becomes much much easier to work with 2400 and a 290 or 300 at 850-950 is a day full of fun and suprisingly easy on the hand. good luck and enjoy

Your input is appreciated, Thank You. For now I am going to follow through with unique. I have copied your info to my scrap book. Switching my alloy I believe made a huge improvement. Shot a bunch more tonight and all is well except for the forcing cone. I am still getting a nice ring of lead around the inside of the frcing cone about 3/32 wide. I suspect maybe a rough cone or bad angle?

[bigboredad]

You know and again this just my opinion and it means nuthin to anybody but me. But sometimes I get to the point and say how important is this what ever the problem is at the time. I say self is this affecting accuracy is this affecting the function of the gun and then i say self do I need to spend this much energy on this or should I shut up and shoot. I have no clue what is causing the ring and I have no suggestions to fix it. I just want you to enjoy a fabulous activity with a great round good luck to ya

[12DMAX]

Had a buddy snap a pic