What BP charge with a 405gr in 45-90 case

[MC One Shot]

What BP charges can you folks recommend using a 405 gr from laser cast in a starline 45-90 case. I have both Goex ffg and Pyrodex RS.

The case will take 90 gr drop tubed to about 1/4" from the top of the case.

Thanks

[Mike Brooks]

Wrong lube for BP, ain't going to work.

[Gunlaker]

How deep do you want to seat them? I'd figure out how much bullet length you want in the case and then add powder until you reach the bottom of the bullet. You can add more from there by compressing it. It sounds like your 90gr would probably work. I imagine that your 405gr bullet will sit somewhere around 0.5" in the case.

If you have concerns about the lube then boil it off in a pot of hot water and pan lube them with whatever you want.

Those bullets are likely quite hard. If so make sure that they are oversized or you'll get some gas cutting. I've shot hard bullets with good accuracy but it's not the prefered route for many.

Have fun!

Chris.

[WARD O]

With black powder, the lube is mainly there to keep the fouling soft after the shot. Black powder fouling with the wrong lube will get hard as a rock and will deform the next bullet down the barrel - causing terrible accuracy. Black powder loads with lube intended for smokeless will likely give disappointing results unless you wipe (or clean) the barrel between each shot.

Either change the lube on these bullets (which can be a mess) or get some bullets with the proper lube.

With black powder, the charge is determined by how much it takes to fill the case to where it touches the bottom of the bullet. The amount by weight is not real material. You do not want any empty space in the cartridge. Always bring the powder up to the bullet base. Many times, compression of the black powder will give a cleaner burn.

Black powder has a whole different set of rules when it comes to reloading! It takes a bit to become comfortable with real black powder but when you do, it really is lots of fun.

ward

[montana_charlie]

Black powder has a whole different set of rules when it comes to reloading! It takes a bit to become comfortable with real black powder but when you do, it really is lots of fun.
And ... Pyrodex RS is not black powder.

CM

[MC One Shot]

And ... Pyrodex RS is not black powder.

CM

It is a substitute. I realize that but I take what is available when I can get it. I also have muzzleloaders that the grandkids like to burning powder in.

[MC One Shot]

Thank you for all your comments and patience.

I have been out of touch lately with BP. I used to shoot BP for years then others found that I had natural ability in modern metallic cartridge pistol and rifle disciplines and exploited that competitively for a while. But I was still shooting my muzzleloaders and my trap door occasionally.

Now I want to get back at it again and to boot my wife likes the slower pace and the grandkids have an interest in the BP guns and they also want to participate.

I just need to recollect all the fixins to start casting and all again. I lost everything a few years back. I have been collecting lead lately. I now have 400# of pure lead, 200# wheel wieghts and the wife and grandkids figured where all the lead is on thier own one day and started to mine the back berms in the rifle/pistol pits when we go when no one else is there.

I still have a lee furnace, large propane stove, two cast iron pots to melt bulk lead in, to clean and pour into small muffin pans.

So I am getting there. All I need to get some molds. Been looking at shows and the like but no luck. Sounds like I will have to buy new molds. An all the reloading gear that a man needs.

I have had a 45-70 TD for years but recently bought a 45-90 Pedersoli Sharps.

I undoubtably will have more questions as time goes forward and I will no doubt place threads in forums where some may get their feathers ruffled as they feel it is the wrong forum, but it may be the closest forum for the answer that I am looking for.

Great forum with lots of info. Thank you. More questions to come.

[TXGunNut]

I wound up here because I couldn't find decent boolits for my 45-90, only thing that makes sense it to cast your own. Laser Cast is one I tried, pretty miserable results; I keep them around in case I need to mix them with lead that's a little softer than I'm looking for. I cast better boolits than I could buy in my very first session. Good to see you're getting back into the hobby and have time to enjoy it.



:castmine:

[MC One Shot]

I am finding out pretty quick too that maufactured cast boolits do not work as well.

[catkiller45]

I am finding out pretty quick too that maufactured cast boolits do not work as well.

the lube is easy to change.I have used my thumb nail and it works good..They are right you need a better lube.You could use a lube cookie..

Now someless will shoot that bullet good or at least it does for me with SR 4759...So at least you can shoot them and it isn't a total loose.....

[MC One Shot]

Went to the range yesterday with some loads that I had made up.

The best groups came out with 405 Laser Cast boolits, 90gr Goex, seated to 2.825" with 5 rounds at 2.0" using a blade and stecher sights.

Powder was dropped using a Lyman 55. I did not write down measurement of how much compression was made.

I did not use a card or grease wad. Should I?

Fouling looks like it needs to be improved but I was using the lube that was on the bullet from laser cast. The next batch I will scrape out the existing lube and replace it with something softer. Now I will have to research lube recipiets.

Will make some more rounds up and I hope to be able to repeat the results again.

Waiting for a set of Soule sights to arrive and off looking for a set of molds.

Still cannot get the postells to shoot.

[MC One Shot]

The five 405gr rounds that I sent down range from a 34" barrel had velocities from 1417 fps to 1443 fps with an average of 1432 fps.

Are these speeds within the range of what others on the forum are getting with their 405s?

Thanks

[wills]

Laser cast are probably harder than you want. Try 30 parts lead to 1 part tin.

Scoop a case level full of black powder. Real black powder, not one of the substitutes. Pour the powder in a scale and weigh it. This is your powder charge.

Drop this amount of powder into the case through a drop tube. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQivMcbbiOwIcX0URpGnNZa5yyBrsHcU 02ZFmoY-4yM9zSemtJfOqURbTia

Put a vegetable fiber wad on top of the powder.http://www.buffaloarms.com/ThumbnailHandler.ashx?MediaID=45098&size=150 The wad protects the base of the boolit.

Compress the powder until you can seat the boolit to the depth you want it.
Put a newspaper wad on top of the fiber wad. The newspaper wad prevents the fiber wad from sticking to the base of the boolit. You cut them yourself using punch.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/ThumbnailHandler.ashx?MediaID=52614&size=150

Seat the boolit. You may not even need the press for this, and you may choose not to crimp. The less you mess with the case mouth, the better.

[Mike Brooks]

Take note , some powder does better with out compression. There is some "Black Magic" associated with the procedure to get good shooting loads. Or, more likey some experimenting. Read, read, read.......:bigsmyl2:

[wills]

Generally Swiss shoots better without compression, Goex shoots better with compression.

[MC One Shot]

Scoop a case level full of black powder. Real black powder, not one of the substitutes. Pour the powder in a scale and weigh it. This is your powder charge.

I was always led to believe that BP should be volume measured and not weighed.

Out of curiosity I weighed 10 measures and all were came out at about +- .6 gr

If you are weighing your loads how are you dispensing it to the scale pan? Trickled electronically or by hand.

[MC One Shot]

Laser cast are probably harder than you want. Try 30 parts lead to 1 part tin.

The laser cast 405 gr boolit has a BNH of 14

[MC One Shot]

Drop this amount of powder into the case through a drop tube.

I am usind a Lyman 55 powder measure/dispenser which has a 27" drop from the measuring cylinder to the case. Is this enough of a drop?

I am compressing 90 gr of Goex .300"

Thank you for your reposnses and help.

[Mooseman]

I don't know how many people I have argued with over the BP weight issue.
70 gr. or 90gr is a WEIGHT of BP charge.
The 45-70 cartridges were made to the length needed for 70 gr of BP and enough seating depth for the bullet.It is why the 45-90 case is a bit longer.
Powder Measures are made to match the VOLUME of that weight amount and usually calibrated for 2F or 3F BP. (Most instructions say NOT to use it for 4F)
We Match shooters weigh our charges for the most part, but most measures will be within .1% with BP ...which is fine or "close enuff for Govt. work". Granules are made to a size standard so they stay uniform.
Pyrodex is used by the same VOLUME Measure as a similar charge of BP but will weigh much less on the scale.

Rich

[wills]

I was always led to believe that BP should be volume measured and not weighed.

Out of curiosity I weighed 10 measures and all were came out at about +- .6 gr

If you are weighing your loads how are you dispensing it to the scale pan? Trickled electronically or by hand.

This “grains by weight” and “grains by volume” business is just a source of confusion, in my opinion.

In my example, you weigh the powder so you can get an amount of powder to use for your charge. Weighing it lets you know how much of it there is (at that exact moment) and you can set your powder measure accordingly. When your measure throws that weight, use it.

Ultimately, your rifle will tell you what it likes. No two are the same. If you don’t like your results, change ONE variable.

If you shoot silhouette or some other formal/competitive discipline, you may want to weigh each charge after you throw it. If you are not competing, it does not really matter. Weight may change a little due to humidity on a particular day. Exact weight is not as important as it is with smokeless. A tenth of a grain either way is not going to cause a detectible difference.

[wills]

Ultimately, your rifle will tell you what it likes. No two are the same. If you don’t like your results, change ONE variable.

[montana_charlie]

This “grains by weight” and “grains by volume” business is just a source of confusion,
That statement could have been made by anybody, as it continues to confuse modern people.
It confuses them because they have easy access to both volume measures and accurate scales.
When scales were uncommon, volume measures were in every shooter's bag, and they were not in the least confusing.

An early form of 'volumetric' measurement was to lay the round ball in the center of your palm.
Pour a cone of powder on the ball until the ball was not visible.

The shooter could then fashion the tip of a horn to hold that volume of powder. This quickened the speed of measuring his 'proper' charge when reloading.

When powder charges became more standardized, they were designated in 'grains'.
Because powder charges vary in density due to manufacturing differences, a "60 grain" measure had to hold the same volume as all other "60 grain" measures ... even though none of them might actually hold sixty (weighed) grains of any particular lot of powder.

Neither the shooter who established his load by pouring a cone of powder in his palm, nor the soldier with a brass "60 grain" measure in his issued kit actually knows the weight of the charges he uses ... and it's possible that neither one will actually see a powder scale in his entire life. Each only knows how his gun performs with the charges his measure throws.

However, the soldier's brass measure, and every other measure that is marked "60 grains", needs to hold the same volume. Otherwise, confusion would reign throughout the land. The best way to assure that all "60 grain" measures have the same volume is to build them to hold sixty (weighed) grains of water.

The shooter still doesn't actually know the weight of his powder charge, but he still is not confused. He still judges the correctness of his powder measure's volume by the performance of his rifle.

When black powder substitutes came on the market, they were provided for the use by people using muzzleloading guns. They were already accustomed to using brass measures for throwing charges, and the subs needed to be sized using the same volumes as those measures were sized for.
The substitutes are all much less dense than black powders, so a "60 grain" charge of (say) Pyrodex won't even be close to a weighed sixty grains.
But it will occupy the same volume as sixty grains of water.

If those buyers of black powder substitutes were banned from reloading modern ammunition, they would not have been exposed to powder scales. But, since they DID own accurate powder weighing equipment, they were able to confuse themselves.

Yes, we weigh all kinds of powder on our scales, and we adjust our bench mounted measures to throw charges of many weights. Also yes, when a bench measure is adjusted to a particular weight of a particular powder, it becomes a 'volumetric' method of throwing charges.

Using a scale to adjust a bench measure is not directly useful for black powder substitutes when attempting to duplicate charges of black powder. In other words, a setting that provides sixty weighed grains of black powder is not an appropriate setting for "60 grains" of Pyrodex.
The cavity volume on the measure has been sized for sixty weighed grains of black powder ... not sixty grains of water.
The difference is hazardous to the shooter. Adjusting the measure to throw sixty weighed grains of Pyrodex is downright dangerous.

If you find it odd (or unbelieveable) that water was used to standardize powder measures and (later) cartridge cases, you will probably be more astounded to learn that the practice is still in use.
http://www.loadammo.com/product/cartcase.htm

CM

[wills]

We are using the weight of something to measure the volume of something else.

Weighing water to determine the volume of a cartridge case.

At standard temperature and pressure the weight and volume of water are pretty much constant, so we can weigh water and calculate volume.

We could, I suppose say “scoop a case level full of powder and MEASURE THE VOLUME, and that gives you the charge”. However since most reloaders are already equipped to weigh powder, and since this pretty much contemplates the weighing and charge adjustments will be done pretty much contemporaneously and it will probably be powder from the same can, at the same temperature same humidity same altitude, the conversion ought to be pretty accurate.

BPCR is a lot different from loading that “white” powder. The charges are not as critical. But when making the transition to BPCR we have to learn a completely discipline, and tend to think too much. Sometimes it is better not to think too much.