Universal Carbine Problem?

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Yes, I realize this is not really a military rifle but it's pretty close and yes, I also realize that most people are of the opinion that the problem is the fact that it is a Universal. That aside I am hoping someone might shed some light on my little problem.

I recently acquired this Universal Carbine in a trade for services on another gun. The previous owner also gave me several stocks and other goodies to go with it. This is one of the later versions with the stamped slide and dual recoil springs. After tearing down for a thorough cleaning (long overdue) and finishing one of the other new stocks for it, the thing looks like a million bucks, but today was my first chance to see how it shoots.

I had some LC surplus as well as some of my first attempt at hand loads for the caliber (12gr 2400 under new LC bullets). The gun was fairly accurate once I got the rear sight where it needed to be. The problem is it never fired more than one round without me pulling back the handle.

Here's the kicker - I don't think it has anything to do with the "adjustable gas system" as every round fired would eject the spent case, strip a new round and close the bolt completely - It just won't fire. The bolt doesn't seem to be making it back far enough to cock the hammer.

If I pull the slide back by hand it works just fine but with both lots of ammo I get the exact same result every time I pulled the trigger. I have read in several different places that the springs can cause problems if they are worn out but unless I don't completely understand springs, I don't see that as being the problem.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

30Cal-Texan

[MtGun44]

more powder in the case? Or a slower powder?

Sounds like the gas impulse is too low energy to push the bolt back all the way and cock
the hammer. Not enough pressure at the port or for long enough time.

Bill

[Mk42gunner]

If it does in fact have an adjustable gas system, (mine doesn't) it could very well be that the gasport is not open far enough. Even though it will cycle the action far enough to load another round, it isn't cycling far enough to cock the hammer.

I am not that well versed on loading the .30 Carbine, but looking in the Speer #13 manual your load should be hot enough to work the action. Got any factory loads to try??

Is the gas piston sticking?

I don't shoot my Universal very much, but it has been 100% reliable since I got it several years ago.

Robert

[3006guns]

Check this out:

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/universal_m1/universal_m1_carbine_production.htm

I didn't read the entire article, but you may find some information of use in the text. Incidently, I had the same problem with my Universal and it turned out to be the magazine spring pressure dragging on the bolt during cycling. You might try loading ONE round and removing the mag, then firing. After ejection, pull the trigger again and if she goes "click" obviously the action went full cycle and you may have isolated your problem. A good G.I. quality magazine got mine up and running immediately.

If it STILL refuses to cycle you may have crud in the gas cylinder/piston and a good cleaning should work wonders.

[fatelk]

A long time ago an acquaintance showed me a rifle, Mini14 IIRC, that would do the same thing. It turned out it was the result of a failed attempt to "make it shoot auto". He had ground something down to where it wouldn't catch the hammer with the trigger pulled. It cost him some money to have a smith put a new part in it. I told him it would have cost him a heck of a lot more had he succeeded and got caught with it.

Have you tried cycling the bolt by hand (no ammo) while holding the trigger down? If the hammer just follows the bolt down, something mechanical could be broken or altered.

[Larry Gibson]

12 gr 2400 is a fairly light load for those 107 gr LC bullets which are probably .307 diameter also(?) with the dual recoil springs of the Universal. I suggest switching to H110 (the original .30 Carbine powder) and using 14 - 15.5 gr under those LC bullets.

Larry Gibson

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Thanks for the replies so far, you guys are great.
Yes, I did try some factory LC at the same time and I got the exact same results. I know this to be a good lot as it is the same as I used to test a military Carbine last week and it worked fine. I’m not sure that I want to go the route of increasing the load just yet considering the above and the fact that the failures are not intermittent. It really seems to me like something is wrong.

As far as an adjustable gas system, I may have used the wrong terminology. The later Universals have the ability to turn off the gas system and use it as a manual pull only. This is supposedly done by removing the gas piston and plug and turning it over. From what I understand, it is an all or nothing adjustment. That said, I did try and take the gas block apart to clean it but I could not remove the pin to save my life and I just didn’t think anyone should have to hit a gun that hard. I have since read on several different forums that these pins are indeed a bear to get out so I may give that another go. If anyone has any specific advice for that little chore I’m all ears. For what it’s worth, the piston did not seem to be plagued by a large amount of crud, it moved quite freely.

As far as the magazine causing the problems; while I wasn’t thinking of that particular possibility at the time, I think I did eliminate it as a potential cause. At the same time that I was trying to figure out this odd problem I was trying to get the rear sight tapped into place as the gun did not have one when I got it. After I realized that this thing was just not going to function properly, I dropped the magazine and started loading it one at a time so that I could still sight it in. With no magazine in place, it would fire the round, eject the case and close the bolt without cocking the hammer, but again pulling it back by hand and inserting the next round would cock it every time.

Fatelk, the Bubba full auto job is something that I definitely did not think of. I don’t recall any of the trigger group parts, looking terribly worn or modified but I am definitely going to have to check again. I doubt that this is the cause simply because the first several attempts were with a full magazine and it was chambering the next round. Interesting possibility though.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

12 gr 2400 is a fairly light load for those 107 gr LC bullets which are probably .307 diameter also(?) with the dual recoil springs of the Universal. I suggest switching to H110 (the original .30 Carbine powder) and using 14 - 15.5 gr under those LC bullets.

Larry Gibson

I will have to go back and look over the loading books again. Really the only reason that I used the 2400 load is because it was powder that I already had. I also assume that since it would not function with the surplus ammo either, I probably have a physical problem.

I think I have a few clips of a different lot of surplus carbine ammo stashed away some where. I may try that and also pick up some H110 for good measure.

I also didn't realize that the bullets were smaller in diameter. I will have to measure a few.

[shotman]

you say you have different stock on it. Look to make sure the duel springs are not binding.
When you manually pull back feel to see if right at last it gets hard

[Larry Gibson]

30CAL-TEXAN

I also didn't realize that the bullets were smaller in diameter. I will have to measure a few

The original .30 carbine military bullets were 105 gr then they changed to 107 gr. Don't know why the bullets vary in diameter. This got me to thinking as I picked up some LC 4, whether "44, '54, '64 or '74 who knows? I pulled a couple of the bullets and they were very close to 110 gr but were .3072" diameter. It had 12.5 gr of a small flake powder.

I then pulled a LC 54 bullet and it was 107 gr and .3073" diameter. The case held 13.7 gr of a very, very fine ball powder.

What "LC" do you have?

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

If you can't get the pin out for the gas piston you may try putting some solvent like Hoppe's #9 around it to soak in.
Do check the stock as the inletting is different for the 2 spring guns. I had one and it was very reliable and accurate. It did take a heavier load to make it cycle than my GI carbines.
I am assuming you have lubed the moving parts so friction is reduced?

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Ok, here is a shot of the monster just for reference:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/130844f82110585fe5.jpg


The new stock is actually made for a late model Universal. It has a very roomy inlet and the larger opening for the aluminum trigger group. It fits quite well and nothing seems to snag.

Larry, the LC ammo that I had at the last range visit is LC 52 and I found the other stuff it is LC 72. The new projectiles that I had loaded are indeed 307. I pulled one from each if the other lots as well:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/130844f82110526494.jpg

I was quite suprised to find that the LC52 case was berdan primed. I was not aware of any LC ammo that was such. The powder from both of these is extremely fine. The 52 is bright silver in color and the 72 is dark grey.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

I started playing with the rifle to see exactly what I could make it do by working the action and dry firing it. I found that if I pulled the action back hard and let it slam shut, it would usually click when I pulled the trigger – makes sense, at the range I could always get the first round to fire.

So then I tried pulling it back gently and letting it slam – same result, it clicked every time.

I then tried pulling it back gently about half way and let it slam shut (since most of these rifles only require about that much bolt movement to cock the hammer) – IT CLICKED! So there is obviously something wrong here.

I tried pulling it back and gently letting it move forward – no click.

I then slammed it back then gently back forward – no click, I something is not right in the trigger group.

Once I got to looking at it a little closer I figured it out – the Trigger Spring was twisted up and turned sideways in the hole above the trigger guard. Before I took it apart I tried a few more things:

I cocked the slide back and gently slid it forward and tried the trigger – nothing. I then gave the back of the action a whack with my rubber mallet – It clicked. I guess the way that the spring was lodged in there it would work as long as the action was sufficiently jarred. I would think that the normal cycle of the rifle would be more violent than me working the action by hand but I guess not.

The real test will be at the range but I played with it after it was back together properly and it seems to be normal again.

Thanks for letting me bounce my thoughts off of you guys – this place really is great!

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Just got back from the range, problem solved.

Had a one failure to feed but all is well, that I can deal with.

[Larry Gibson]

Outstanding! They are fun shooters, here's my "shooter".

Larry Gibson

[3006guns]

Glad to hear you're back in business! You might check some of the parts suppliers for a replacement trigger spring "just in case" the old one ever breaks.

[NoZombies]

BTW, the Berdan primed LC52 ammo you have is Chinese production ammo, they got ahold of some military 30 carbine ammo and reproduced it as closely as they could, right down to the head-stamp. They Berdan primed theirs however, rather than using boxer primers. It should be treated as very corrosive ammo. I speak from experience.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

BTW, the Berdan primed LC52 ammo you have is Chinese production ammo, they got ahold of some military 30 carbine ammo and reproduced it as closely as they could, right down to the head-stamp. They Berdan primed theirs however, rather than using boxer primers. It should be treated as very corrosive ammo. I speak from experience.

Well that inhales excessively!

Now i need to go back and re-clean 2 rifles with soapy water:(

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Was this a Chi-com try to rust out the barrels of the worlds suppy of carbines?
Mike in Peru

[legend]

Thank you for posting about this "problem", i too have one that has been just a closet queen,as, i have had the same exact problem with it...

It still looks almost new because i could not make it work and gave up (20 years)
so now i can refer back to your post and might just find it too is the spring.

GOD I LOVE THIS SITE!!

[Combat Diver]

30cal-Texan,

I'm glad you got the problem solved. Here is a site for Universal (and other commerical M1 Carbines).

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal.html


Enjoy
CD

[Mk42gunner]

Some good info about Carbines on you link there CD.

I learned that my Universal probably does have an adjustable gas piston. My earlier comment that mine didn't have one was because I was thinking that it would adjust gas volume in increments, not just on or off.

I am not going to take mine apart until I need to; but if the rear of the action starts to get battered, converting it to a straight pull is an option.

Robert