Bought this fullstock for $65

[RhodeHunter]

Whoever put this gun together wasn't a gunsmith - I can tell that much. I couldn't pass it up though for the price. Maybe the barrel has some value. And maybe I could try to improve the gun, who knows?

Caliber: .45
BBL length: 33.5 inches, 7/8 inch wide
OAL: 50
Trigger: 13-1/4
Rifling: between 2.5 to 2.75 complete turns in 33.5 inches. (1 in 12.4 inches)

This barrel must be designed for longer boolits, not round ball, huh?

I'm going to try one pic and see how big it comes out from photobucket.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/052.jpg

[RhodeHunter]

Ok not that big so here's some more.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/033.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/035.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/032.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/048.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/034.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/038.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/045.jpg

[RhodeHunter]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/050.jpg

[RhodeHunter]

The only markings I can see without removing the barrel are 6 numbers stamped on the right flat of the barrel that are half obscured by the stock.

The reason I don't think a gunsmith put this together is that the stock work seems crude. The carvings of the branches and leaves seem crudely done, there's no cheekpiece, they left saw marks on the barrel near the muzzle, and the casting marks on the trigger guard were not filed off. Also the lock is inlet too much.

I think it was made for a smaller man or a child because the whole butt section is very thin and light and the wrist is super small. But I kind of like that since I'm only 5'9" and 155 pounds.

The trigger barely works. I think it needs a new trigger, and maybe a new lock. The hammer cup is looks very worn.

[waksupi]

I'm surprised the twist is that fast. I can't imagine someone having switched out the original barrel on one of those. That is the type of the first muzzle loader I bought back in 1973. It was an excellent round ball shooter. I bet yours is too. I seem to recall .440 rb, pillow ticking, and 60 gr. 2FF.

[wgr]

looking at the pic of the rifling it looks to be a slow twist

[havegunwilltravel]

Looks like a CVA kit gun from the 70s got one just like it except for the wood carving. Shot my first deer with it . Aloooooooong time ago. Twist rate is 1 in 66 I think. hgwt

[twotoescharlie]

looks like an old "jukar" f/s is on backwards.

ttc

[RhodeHunter]

Yeah, the front sight spins in its hole freely. I just thought that was the way it was supposed to go. I counted the rod turns on the way out to get the rate of twist; I'll try it again.

[mooman76]

They were common in the early 70's. Allot made and imported with many different names being placed on them depending on who sold them. The twist rate puzzles me also. Jukar of what I here is actually the name of the place they were made. I have a Hopins & Allen that looks very similar except for the custom work and it does have a trigger from ****. Rifling looks very shallow also or it could just be the picture. The stock looks normal to me for that period/type of repo.

[Hanshi]

I don't see anything that can't be fixed up to make it into a good shooter/hunter and knocking around gun. Bore looks good. Yes, check again; it does look like a much slower twist.

[PanaDP]

If I were in possession of that thing, I'd remove all of the adornment, refinish the stock with oil, and then tack it like a trade gun. It'd be pretty good looking after that.

[RhodeHunter]

Thanks for the info/comments.

I used the rod and jag again and was very careful, gentle, and deliberate. Still got the same result.

This picture shows the rifling "better." I took several pictures and a slight angle makes a big difference in how it looks.

Look at the top groove and how it cuts straight across from left to right. She's an unusually fast twist.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/TerryLaPierre/45fullstock/002.jpg

[405]

Agree with the others about likely origin. The trigger and guard, lock and stock all look like several of the crude, cheap "Kentucky" repros that hit the "hot" muzzleloader and kit market of the 70s. But, that barrel/rifling and bolster just don't seem to fit with that group of repros from the 70s. Most of them had very simple tang/breech plugs and a separate drum (the least expensive way of making a caplock). And I think they all had normal slow, RB twist rifling. Almost seems like someone got the hankering to fit some old kit parts to a completely different barrel to do a little experimenting OR decided to replace an original damaged barrel with a different one- in this case a REALLY different type entirely. And yes those grooves look extremely shallow in both photos.

[Boerrancher]

I pretty much agree with what 405 said. My take on the barrel is that it was a retro fit of some sort, and not a factory job or a job done by a good gun smith, but most likely done at someones kitchen table. The reason I say this is because there is not much if any crown on the muzzle. Now I know that they are crowned a bit differently than regular rifles but that one looks like there are still some faint parting tool marks on the face of the muzzle. The one thing I know for sure is that you can forget about shooting PRB's out of it with hopes of any accuracy.

Best wishes,

Joe

[excess650]

My first reaction was that it was one of the "Ultra-Hi" guns from the '70s. The lock looks much older as in from an original percussion shotgun. The quick twist seems odd.

[curator]

I have encountered several .45 caliber replica muzzle loading rifles from the early 70s with similar twist. In fact, I have a .45 barrel from an unfinished flintlock kit with the same twist. On all, the rifling was pretty rough and the breech plug (if there actually was one) was welded on. Both the rifling design, depth, and twist is consistant with .458 Winchester Magnum barrels, but certainly not the finish. I assumed the original manufacturer in Spain or Belgium was unaware of the correct rifling specifications for muzzle loading rifle barrels and picked something modern. Proof test this gun before shooting it. I'm pretty sure they weren't meant for anything more than blanks.

[Good Cheer]

Gents, checking out the reamer marks on the bore... are the reamer marks fresh? In the photo they appear not worn at all.

[RhodeHunter]

How much work to replace the barrel?

[RhodeHunter]

Gents, checking out the reamer marks on the bore... are the reamer marks fresh? In the photo they appear not worn at all.

Maybe blanks were the only thing used?

[frontier gander]

Ain't no one going to build a gun that ugly just to fire blanks in.

With the right combo, that 1:24 twist will shoot patched balls with decent accuracy. Just keep the powder charge low.

[RhodeHunter]

It's not 1 in 24.

[gandydancer]

It looks to me like one of the early 1970 CVA kits sold by dave silk when he first started CVA in CT and seems to me they where 1 in 66 twist for round ball.

[mooman76]

Do you know how deep the rifling is? It doesn't look deep from the pictures but pictures can be deceiving. The front site is odd, I have never seen one like that, they are usually dovetailed in those old ones. I have one similar. The breech looks about the same but it has a dovetail front site and the usual 1/66 twist. You could try some patched RBs to see how it does but I would go light on the load with that twist. Maybe start at around 30gr and work up. It doesn't look like it was ever fired or it was very little. A 45 mini may work best with that rifling. Remove the barrel and you might find some markings underneath. If you did deside to get another barrel it should be fairly easy to pick up a good used one.

[waksupi]

Quite frankly, a new barrel would cost more than the rifle is worth.

[RhodeHunter]

Well, I would like to learn how these things go together anyways, so why not learn on something that's valueless? I've got to start somewhere.

First I'll slug and measure to find rifling depth right? Then I'll proof test, followed by shooting with 30gr, etc.

Then remove the barrel.

This stuff's going to take me a while so don't expect any results anytime soon. I've got a lot of other stuff going on.

Thanks for all the help.:drinks:

[frkelly74]

I had a Miroku that I got from a big variety store in the early 70's. It had the same brass joint hider where the fore stock attached to the rest of the rifle. It was hard to load.

[RhodeHunter]

The trigger had some rust on it, so I wanted to remove it and see if anything else in the lock was rusty. There wasn’t much rust inside so I just cleaned and oiled it. The sear spring (a V spring) broke in half, and so the trigger just flops back and forth. The lock plate has Spain stamped on it. All screw threads are metric, and I chased the threads using a Harbor Freight tap and die set. I learned that the tang screw goes down through the stock and screws into the trigger, which the original builder had some issues with alignment and was only having one or two screw threads holding it together. I worked at it until alignment was better and the screw could be turned farther in. I thought the trigger pull too hard, and so I filed the side of the tumbler where the sear rests to shorten the shelf. I just thought it would be less friction. I’m not sure this helped a whole lot. Maybe in retrospect, grease at that point would be better? I think the main spring is just too stiff. I polished the metal where the trigger engages the sear; I think that was the more effective job. This was my first attempt at a trigger job ever. I put a fishing scale to the trigger when done and it’s about 4 pounds which is still a little harder than I’d like it to be.

I sent the broken spring to Track of the Wolf, but they don’t stock Spanish lock parts and he returned my broken sear spring.

[RhodeHunter]

I wanted to check for proof marks under the barrel and to be able to read the serial number stamped on the side of the barrel, which was half-hidden by the stock. Driving the one pin out was difficult. I bent some finishing nails I was using as punches, and then I resorted to using a real punch that was just a little big. Of course the pin, now back in, is a little loose in its hole, but not so loose as to fall out. Of course I should have just stopped and gotten a bigger variety of punches, but as you know, this gun is not that valuable and is more of a learning tool for me. So with the tang screw out, and the pin out, the barrel came right off. No proof marks, only the word Spain stamped on the bottom. Does that mean it was ever proofed? I don’t know. I decided I was going to shoot it with a string, Mythbuster style. The serial number is 046833.

[RhodeHunter]

I couldn’t find any brass rod locally and so I bought steel rod at Home Depot and wrapped Teflon tape around it – worked fine. So I put the rod in the barrel, then with a wood dowel for a punch drove a .490 lead ball into the bore about 6 inches. After tipping the barrel three times, the rod drove the slug out of the barrel and onto a cotton bath towel. Measuring with the micrometer yielded the following results. Groove diameter is .457 and bore diameter is .453. The difference is .004 and so the groove depth is .002, pretty shallow. As a comparison, my Lyman Deerstalker manual states a groove depth of .008, and I am assuming there are other barrels with deeper grooves than that (I would like a chart of these when and if I could find some data). Some of the data I have read can be confusing because you don’t know if the person is dividing by 2 or not.

The rifling is 6 lands and 6 grooves of equal width, .002 groove depth, 1 turn in 12.4 inches.

[RhodeHunter]

I ordered three different boolits for trying out in the rifle, .440 rb, .433 rb, and .45 sabots with .40 bullets. Both shots for the proof test were using the .433 ball. The first shot was with 50 grains of 2F goex and one prb. The second shot was 70 grains of 2F and two prb’s. I was behind a large telephone pole (one of the columns of the rifle range) and yanked on the string. Voila, no bulging or damage to the rifle.

After that I tried the rifle offhand with all three ammo’s. Another day I’ll have to do some benchrest shooting with it to see what it does. The .440 and the sabot shot the best from what I could tell. Sorry I don’t have better data on the accuracy of this weird barrel. I’ll follow up when I get a chance to shoot it some more.

It still shoots without the sear spring, but I’m going to try and get one from Traditions. If the barrel ends up shooting accurately with anything, I will most likely replace the lock at some point down the road. And maybe someday make a new stock. We’ll see.

[sisiphunter]

Very interesting thread you have goin here. I'm gonna try to keep an eye on this one. I am just waiting to pick up my 45 cal cap lock. Looks kinda similar only with plain old Woodstock no fancy designs. IT is a jukar. Can't wait to see what she can do. Best of luck and keep us up to date. Thanks.

[waksupi]

You guys scare the hell out of me with those old Spanish guns, especially the Jukars.

[sisiphunter]

Hey the way i see it. My wife has paid more for a picture than i am for my jukar so if nothing more it would be a wall hanger. Polish up the brass and brighten the wood and she will look great over the mantle. I just like the long barrel and full wood stock. Mine just has a blonde plain stock too.

[mooman76]

I have a couple Jukars. They shoot pretty good for a cheap gun. The early CVAs and Traditions were Jukar. Also allot of other imports.

[waksupi]

I'll try to find the article with a sectioned Jukar barrel in it, for your amusement.

[mooman76]

I put together one of the earlier Jukar rifle kits. I bought it a few years ago still in the original box sold at Wards in 1974. It still had the receipt on it. All the parts were there too. It has the seperate section where the breech plug is. If I remember right the name Jukar comes from the city it was made in Spain.

[Boerrancher]

You guys scare the hell out of me with those old Spanish guns, especially the Jukars.

Ric my friend you worry too much. We have Obamacare now, so a trip to the ER is cheep now, right?


Rodehunter,

Check on Ebay for parts for those old Spanish made guns, there are lots of parts out there available. Maybe Ric is right and that is why there are so many parts.

Best wishes,

Joe

[RhodeHunter]

You guys are a riot. I put a bid on a lock on eBay but I don't know that it's for a Jukar or not. A lot of the locks don't have much in the way of description. The lock I bid on has a bridle so it's not as cheap as mine.