NOE 311-165 RD's Clone

[MGySgt]

This really isn't a lever action, but I thought I would get a better response here.

I have a Savage 340 in 30/30. I bought the NOE 311-165 the Clone of the RD one. Loaded up 10 rounds to zero a new scope with a mid range of 2400 (17Gr).

When I closed the bolt the boolit is engraved by the rifling.

Anyone out there that has both the NOE and Ranch Dogs 311-165 and that can compare the front driving band for length before the ogive starts?

I would hate to buy Michael's and have the same issue.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Drew

[btroj]

The difference is very slight. My NOe has a slowly fatter ogive, but not much. In my Marlin the NOE needs to be seated maybe 30 thousandths deeper to keep out of the lands.
I doubt it is going to make a difference if you are hard into the lands.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Give the chamber/throat a light touch up? I have seen several of those Savage bolt guns over the years in 30/30 and 25/20 and they had all unserviceable bores. It seems every 32/20 I have seen was ok and the one I have is perfect.

I would really love to pick up a 30/30 Savage or Remington 788, but 30/30 bolt guns are as rare as rocking horse poop in Australia.

If I do pick one up, I will use the Ranch Dog mould with that info, thanks. Shame as the NOEs are a thing of beauty and I usually get one cavity HP'd.

[MGySgt]

btroj - I had put a new mount and scope on the Savage and had to zero the scope. So I went ahead and shot them.

17 gr of 2400, CCI LR primer.

Last 3 shots were in less than a inch at 50 yards - Not a bad start. I may just forget abut the engraving and shoot them anyway.

Looks like you are right in that hard into the lands isn't going to have too much of an effect, just have to work up the loads SLOWLY.

Would you be willing to drop 2 or 3 of them unsized in the mail to me? I would load a dummy just to see if it stayed off the lands.

FFOD - sorry about the lack of bolt 30/30's there - BOTH of mine shoot factory great and the one I am working with now seems to be a good cast shooter too.

I loaded 20 more with the 17 grs, but I added dacron filler to these. 2 grains from BOOK max.

I will report the findings in the Factory Rifles section after I get another range session in.

Drew

[btroj]

Send me a PM and I can send a few unsized. May take a few days as I will need to cast up a few.
Another thing that is possible is to grime the brass a touch shorter so you can still crimp in the crimp groove but not be so far into the lands. That is what I ended up doing.

To me 17 gr of 2400 is about e max I would want to shoot. I had better luck in my Marlin with 16 or 16.5 gr. I also am planning to test it this summer with 14.5 with a dacron filler. Should be close to same velocity but maybe a touch more accurate?

[excess650]

Interesting....I PREFER to load my ammo so that it engages the rifling. It needs to be removed from the chamber without leaving a boolit in the throat. I do not like "hard into the rifling", but I know guys that do.

[btroj]

By trimming the brass a bit I got it so the NOe version does lightly engrave the rifling. With a Marlin that is all the ore you want, even that is a bit scary. Have a slighty long round and you aren't closing the action.
It also makes you not like real hard bullets, they don't engrave quite sleazily.

This is a time to realize that what works well in a blot gun may not work so well in a gun without the camming action of the bolt lugs.

[MGySgt]

I can remove the NOE's from the chamber without leaving the boolit in the chamber. The bolt is a little hard to close, but extraction is not very easy. This process is to get decent accuray and easy working bolt for the grand kids. I think the hard opening of a live round for them too much.

The NOE's will work, but I would prefer not to have hard bolt closing or much harder to remove a live round for them.

Maybe I need to put a 11 degree taper into the lands. Don't know yet.

Drew

[MGySgt]

Send me a PM and I can send a few unsized. May take a few days as I will need to cast up a few.

Pm sent and Thank you again.

Drew

[Four Fingers of Death]

[QUOTE=btroj;1666317]It also makes you not like real hard bullets, they don't engrave quite sleazily.QUOTE]

Don't want no sleazy boolits in yer gun! lol

[Larry Gibson]

I can remove the NOE's from the chamber without leaving the boolit in the chamber. The bolt is a little hard to close, but extraction is not very easy. This process is to get decent accuray and easy working bolt for the grand kids. I think the hard opening of a live round for them too much.

The NOE's will work, but I would prefer not to have hard bolt closing or much harder to remove a live round for them.

Maybe I need to put a 11 degree taper into the lands. Don't know yet.

Drew

Can you post a picture of the bullet and loaded cartridge?

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

Larry, - your wish is my command!

Here is a picture of a loaded round (I chambered it) and an unsized boolit.

Drew

[mainiac]

Im shooting this same noe boolit in a older 30-30 marlin,and it to engraves the rifiling,although very lightly.

I prefer this,and the way this boolit shoots,i know the ol marlin likes it that way,as well.

[MGySgt]

The Savage 340 shoots ok (sub in at 50) with just a throwen together load. 17gr of 2400, no filler.

I put 20 more together but I added dacron filler. The groups opened up a little with the savage, but my sons H&R SS did sub in at 50 with them. They didn't engrave in that.

Both rifles want to shoot this boolet, it just may be different loads.

I am still playing/working the load. 17 gr of 2400 is too much for what I am looking for. The grand kids shooting them.

Just went to the casting shed and cast up another 4 pounds of them. I still have some left from my last casting session, but I wanted these to age.

Unique is my next powder to try. I don't care about the velocity, just recoil and about an inch at 50 yards. Have the accuracy - just need to get the power level down so the youngesters can shoot them.

[kelbro]

The RD engraved heavily in my Winny 94 and not quite as much in my 336. I trimmed a batch of brass where the bullet now just touches the lands. That batch of brass also works for the Leverevolution bullets.

Makes me appreciate my old Lee 170 gr mold. Shot good. Killed good. No hassles.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Larry, - your wish is my command!

Here is a picture of a loaded round (I chambered it) and an unsized boolit.

Drew

Nice looking boolit. You can see the engraving on the loaded round.

The Grandkids might be better off with a soupcan bullet for plinking and light game shooting. A Lee mould doesn't amount to a lot of money, might be worth springing for one.

[Montana Ron]

I have had the same thing happen with My Glenfield and am going to get the 170 grain RD with a smaller nose as I want to shoot hard bullets and don't like jaming bullets back in the case then
if I want to remove it chancing a stuck or pulled bullet...............

[popper]

I have both versions of RD 311165. The new marlin version has a smaller nose. I don't have trouble with either, just use a FCD on them, seat the CB a little deeper ( .05 for my marlin) with the old version and crimp on the ogive. I tried PB with unique @ 50, the accuracy was just OK, recoil is like a 243. I haven't gotten any good accuracy from GC without the GC. That NOE CB has a really short rear drive band.

[MGySgt]

Popper - I don't like the FCD - it is taking care of a problem that should be resolved another way. (different boolit, sized smaller, larger/smaller expander, etc.). It can also reduce the size of your Boolit.

I want to keep the shank of the boolit (to include GC) in the neck of the case - so I don't want to seat it any deeper.

I am going to try the original RD 311-165 that has a smaller diameter in the shoulder/top driving band.

I have 4 30/30's to feed and a 308 - these boolits won't work (for me at least) in the 308.
I should be able to get one load the works OK in all 4 - for hunting purposes I might have to load differently for 2 or all of them. Don't know yet.

Drew

[geargnasher]

Drew, are you familiar with the rifle FCD? Different animal than the pistol versions, it'a a collet crimper that swages the crimp and make a consistent one eve if the case mouths are a few thousandths different from each other in a batch.

That being said, the pic looks fine to me, seating to engrave is a constant goal of mine when developing loads with cast boolits. It's not at all like with copper-jacketed bullets where that can spike pressure, the soft lead boolits don't cause any issues at all, and in fact usually shoot better when seated out that far because they tend to get a straighter start rather than slamming into the lands while already moving, and possibly doing so at a slight angle due to the necessary chamber neck tolerances.

One thing you could do is go ahead and seat the boolit down farther, I see a big gap between the crimped mouth and the top of the lube groove. Unless you're firing full-snort rounds from the box magazine there's no need for that much crimp, and no need to put the crimp on the bottom of the groove, just turn the mouth in right under the band above the groove leaving minimal gap. This should give you some amount of contact without such a hard "jam".

The mould I'd recommend for plinking is the Lee 30-150 or 30-170, they will chamber in every .30 caliber I've seen except the M1 Carbine.

Gear

[popper]

I just use the FCD to crimp in front of the front band. Just removes the 'bell' The new RD has the smaller nose. Accuracy with the old, seated .05 deeper was great, 1" @ 100. I was lazy and didn't want to trim - actually haven't trimmed ANY brass after 6-7 reloads.. I mostly single load anyway.

[MGySgt]

Gear - No I wasn't aware the the FCD was different that the pistol FCD.
This particular batch of Winchester 30/30's started out with 150 PP. The Winchester crimp actually cut the case mouth. I sliced my thumb on one of them after sizing - had a very sharp piece sticking out. After triming (a little shorter than trim to length) the knife edge was gone.

I was actually looking at seating a little deeper and tacking most of the crimp out just to help out on the case longevity.

I would like to get some of the engraving out only because I want the grand kids to work the bolt for themselves. - Also for saftey issues - remove a chambered round if you have to go down range. Now if it is one of the younger ones and don't have the strenght and I don't look at the bolt to ensure it is open - we could be walking forward with a round loaded. not a very good thing. We won't get kicked off the range because the range is in my back yard - but we still need saftey first.

Popper - I do trim my cases - just old habits. The current lot I am working with is 60 cases - doesn't take to long with the Lyman Power Trimer. Not like my 45/90's - they have to be trimed EVERY loading due to how much they grow on each firing about .005 (Star Line Brass).

I am on the road this week and when I get home I am going to turn in the seating die after I reset the crimp.

Reloading 30/30 with cast has made this fun again! Especially since this endeavor seems to produce good groups right from the begining.

Drew

[geargnasher]

I shoot .45/90 and trim to 2.399" for a 2.401" chamber about every three rounds. I partial size only the top inch of the case or so in a backed-off 45/70 die just to hold the boolits firmly, and use the crimper only to remove enough bellmouth to chamber easily. Starline brass, and since I use smokeless and work the brass very little, I never have annealed them.

Gear

[mpbarry1]

Great thread guys. Thanks for sharing.

[MGySgt]

Gear - I bought a Lyman Neck sizer for 45 cal rifle. Really have not had a chance to use it as I really haven't shot the 45/90 in a few years.

I was using it for Elk hunting in CO high country.

I did anneal my 45/90 brass and used dacron filler. Un-annealed brass would shoot about 2 - 2.5 in groups, after annealing them the groups shrank to sub in.

Now I was only loading those 430 grain boolits to a little over 1400 FPS - but they did shoot!

Drew

[popper]

I just NS with a reamed out Lee FL die, expand with the 31 M die. Sized to .311. The shoulder gets pushed forward so the neck is shorter but the case length doesn't change. I check but they just don't need a trim. Same thing for my 308 and 2 .243s.

[MGySgt]

Finally settled on a load for my grand daughter - 9.5 gr Unique with the NOE 165-311.

She loves it - 3.5 in high at 50 and dead on at 100. full shiloutte, 100 yards - 20 for 20 center mass!

Prepped 100 cases, now I just have to load them!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, - your wish is my command!

Here is a picture of a loaded round (I chambered it) and an unsized boolit.

Drew

Thanks for the picture, it is a bit different than the GB mould I have. However i find that 14.5 gr of 2400 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler is very accurate in my 20" M94 and my 21" Contender running at 1725 fps.

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

HMMMM - 14.5 gr of 2400 with dacron at 1725. I did shoot some 17.5 2400 with dacron, and it dodn't shoot as well as 17 gr with out dacron. Didn't chrono it as I was just playing a little bit.

Maybe have to try 2400 along with IMR 4198 and 3031 when I work a hunting load for her.

Drew

[btroj]

I ink the 14.5 with Dacron is about the same as my 16 gr without load. I have used a huge amount of the 16 gr no Dacron load with good results.
I plan to test the 14.5 with Dacron this summer, I just need to find the time.

2400 is just such a good powder for cast bullets

[MGySgt]

Time - who has time? I am living out of suit case and I am getting too old for this. I am back on the road tonight. Short trip - I will be back Friday sometime.

[MGySgt]

Came back home Friday. Loaded 10 rounds of the 30/30 loads with 9.5 gr Unique - went out back to the range to shoot them and adjust the scope.

Well - if she want to shoot 100 yds the 9.5 gr of Unique load isn't it. About 5 in group. loaded another 5 (to check 50) and loaded 5 at 17.5 gr 2400 load.

The 9.5 gr Unique shoot good at 50 again. The 17.5 gr of 2400 - 3 round group at 100 shot into 1.5 in.

I don't think the 9.5 grain of Unique has enough velocity for 100 - the 2400 load and the unique load shoot about the same at 50 - but the Unique load doesn't do it at 100.

I don't want to use Dacron (normally will tighten up a group) My GD is is going to shoot a LOT of these and I don't want the extra step of the dacron.

Consistant 2 in group would be great!